Kumoricon
Convention Community => Off-Topic => Topic started by: MiriaRose on September 27, 2011, 11:17:47 pm
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What's offensive?
'Kay. I can give you my list:
Discrimination
Slurs
Sexual abuse jokes
Hell, abuse jokes in general
Nazis
Actually any genocide jokes/references
Disrespecting flags
etc. etc. etc.
Also, as for cosplaying Nazi!Germany? To a con? No. Please don't. There's a lot of people who go to Kumoricon who have relatives who were murdered in the Holocaust- Myself being one of them. And yes, I would get very, very mad. Hell, there's plenty of people in Portland and Vancouver who are survivors of that and suffer psychological damage from it. The Holocaust really wasn't that long ago.
As for Nazi!Prussia: The Prussians weren't too fond of Hitler. In 1934 Hitler enacted Preussenschloss which basically took away all of the power Prussia had, and the aristocrats were not fond of that, not one bit. Aside from that, while they were horribly racist, they didn't think that they should go kill everyone they didn't like with fire. As for nazi!Germany, most of the Germans during that time weren't Nazis.
I'm not sure what sort of personal reasons you might have for doing it, but I'd advise against it. It'd be really tasteless, bro, and staff would probably ask you to change. Aside from that, you'd get posted on /cgl/ by any of the Oregonian seagulls, and you would basically become Oregon's Axelai (whom I incidentally go to the same university as! whooo~).
I understand that But if a schrodinger can do it why can't someone else?
I don't think Schroedingers should do it, either.
Saki, Axelai. . Gah. Shi can explain better than I and there's no dramu threads about her on /cgl/. She spends all her money on cons, though, and ignores her schoolwork for cosplay. She was in danger of failing out of college last year and our school almost denied her housing. Also, she went on about how she was entitled to cosplay Schutzstaffel!Prussia.
The German military uniform is kind of different than the Schutzstaffel uniform. The German soldiers weren't the ones in charge of concentration camps while the SS were. And honestly, I wouldn't wear the SS uniform to a con, much less out in public, and I wouldn't endorse it.
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What's offensive?
'Kay. I can give you my list:
Discrimination
Slurs
Sexual abuse jokes
Hell, abuse jokes in general
Nazis
Actually any genocide jokes/references
Disrespecting flags
etc. etc. etc.
Also, as for cosplaying Nazi!Germany? To a con? No. Please don't. There's a lot of people who go to Kumoricon who have relatives who were murdered in the Holocaust- Myself being one of them. And yes, I would get very, very mad. Hell, there's plenty of people in Portland and Vancouver who are survivors of that and suffer psychological damage from it. The Holocaust really wasn't that long ago.
As for Nazi!Prussia: The Prussians weren't too fond of Hitler. In 1934 Hitler enacted Preussenschloss which basically took away all of the power Prussia had, and the aristocrats were not fond of that, not one bit. Aside from that, while they were horribly racist, they didn't think that they should go kill everyone they didn't like with fire. As for nazi!Germany, most of the Germans during that time weren't Nazis.
I'm not sure what sort of personal reasons you might have for doing it, but I'd advise against it. It'd be really tasteless, bro, and staff would probably ask you to change. Aside from that, you'd get posted on /cgl/ by any of the Oregonian seagulls, and you would basically become Oregon's Axelai (whom I incidentally go to the same university as! whooo~).
I understand that But if a schrodinger can do it why can't someone else?
I don't think Schroedingers should do it, either.
Saki, Axelai. . Gah. Shi can explain better than I and there's no dramu threads about her on /cgl/. She spends all her money on cons, though, and ignores her schoolwork for cosplay. She was in danger of failing out of college last year and our school almost denied her housing. Also, she went on about how she was entitled to cosplay Schutzstaffel!Prussia.
The German military uniform is kind of different than the Schutzstaffel uniform. The German soldiers weren't the ones in charge of concentration camps while the SS were. And honestly, I wouldn't wear the SS uniform to a con, much less out in public, and I wouldn't endorse it.
Geez :\ That's no good. I mean, will give her credit for having such nice cosplays, but spending all of her money on that stuff isn't good...And after reading about all the **** she got thrown at her on 4chan, cosplaying at SS!Prussia isn't going to make anything better. It's just going to make it a thousand times worse for both her and the fandom.
Also, speaking of her on 4chan. I really have to admit that people were taking that way too far. Spamming her DA so much that she needed to change accounts isn't something that needed to happen ._.
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What's offensive?
'Kay. I can give you my list:
Discrimination
Slurs
Sexual abuse jokes
Hell, abuse jokes in general
Nazis
Actually any genocide jokes/references
Disrespecting flags
etc. etc. etc.
Also, as for cosplaying Nazi!Germany? To a con? No. Please don't. There's a lot of people who go to Kumoricon who have relatives who were murdered in the Holocaust- Myself being one of them. And yes, I would get very, very mad. Hell, there's plenty of people in Portland and Vancouver who are survivors of that and suffer psychological damage from it. The Holocaust really wasn't that long ago.
As for Nazi!Prussia: The Prussians weren't too fond of Hitler. In 1934 Hitler enacted Preussenschloss which basically took away all of the power Prussia had, and the aristocrats were not fond of that, not one bit. Aside from that, while they were horribly racist, they didn't think that they should go kill everyone they didn't like with fire. As for nazi!Germany, most of the Germans during that time weren't Nazis.
I'm not sure what sort of personal reasons you might have for doing it, but I'd advise against it. It'd be really tasteless, bro, and staff would probably ask you to change. Aside from that, you'd get posted on /cgl/ by any of the Oregonian seagulls, and you would basically become Oregon's Axelai (whom I incidentally go to the same university as! whooo~).
I understand that But if a schrodinger can do it why can't someone else?
I don't think Schroedingers should do it, either.
Saki, Axelai. . Gah. Shi can explain better than I and there's no dramu threads about her on /cgl/. She spends all her money on cons, though, and ignores her schoolwork for cosplay. She was in danger of failing out of college last year and our school almost denied her housing. Also, she went on about how she was entitled to cosplay Schutzstaffel!Prussia.
The German military uniform is kind of different than the Schutzstaffel uniform. The German soldiers weren't the ones in charge of concentration camps while the SS were. And honestly, I wouldn't wear the SS uniform to a con, much less out in public, and I wouldn't endorse it.
Geez :\ That's no good. I mean, will give her credit for having such nice cosplays, but spending all of her money on that stuff isn't good...And after reading about all the **** she got thrown at her on 4chan, cosplaying at SS!Prussia isn't going to make anything better. It's just going to make it a thousand times worse for both her and the fandom.
Also, speaking of her on 4chan. I really have to admit that people were taking that way too far. Spamming her DA so much that she needed to change accounts isn't something that needed to happen ._.
Oh no, I agree, 4chan goes to extremes a lot of the time. But Axelai is just an example- tbh I don't know her and I'd actually like to meet her, but I do know that she's said some not-very-nice things to a friend of mine.
But I really don't want any of you guys being posted on /cgl/. Not the people that cheered when we asked you guys to not make rape jokes. Y'all are too awesome for that.
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What's offensive?
'Kay. I can give you my list:
Discrimination
Slurs
Sexual abuse jokes
Hell, abuse jokes in general
Nazis
Actually any genocide jokes/references
Disrespecting flags
etc. etc. etc.
Also, as for cosplaying Nazi!Germany? To a con? No. Please don't. There's a lot of people who go to Kumoricon who have relatives who were murdered in the Holocaust- Myself being one of them. And yes, I would get very, very mad. Hell, there's plenty of people in Portland and Vancouver who are survivors of that and suffer psychological damage from it. The Holocaust really wasn't that long ago.
As for Nazi!Prussia: The Prussians weren't too fond of Hitler. In 1934 Hitler enacted Preussenschloss which basically took away all of the power Prussia had, and the aristocrats were not fond of that, not one bit. Aside from that, while they were horribly racist, they didn't think that they should go kill everyone they didn't like with fire. As for nazi!Germany, most of the Germans during that time weren't Nazis.
I'm not sure what sort of personal reasons you might have for doing it, but I'd advise against it. It'd be really tasteless, bro, and staff would probably ask you to change. Aside from that, you'd get posted on /cgl/ by any of the Oregonian seagulls, and you would basically become Oregon's Axelai (whom I incidentally go to the same university as! whooo~).
I understand that But if a schrodinger can do it why can't someone else?
I don't think Schroedingers should do it, either.
Saki, Axelai. . Gah. Shi can explain better than I and there's no dramu threads about her on /cgl/. She spends all her money on cons, though, and ignores her schoolwork for cosplay. She was in danger of failing out of college last year and our school almost denied her housing. Also, she went on about how she was entitled to cosplay Schutzstaffel!Prussia.
The German military uniform is kind of different than the Schutzstaffel uniform. The German soldiers weren't the ones in charge of concentration camps while the SS were. And honestly, I wouldn't wear the SS uniform to a con, much less out in public, and I wouldn't endorse it.
Geez :\ That's no good. I mean, will give her credit for having such nice cosplays, but spending all of her money on that stuff isn't good...And after reading about all the **** she got thrown at her on 4chan, cosplaying at SS!Prussia isn't going to make anything better. It's just going to make it a thousand times worse for both her and the fandom.
Also, speaking of her on 4chan. I really have to admit that people were taking that way too far. Spamming her DA so much that she needed to change accounts isn't something that needed to happen ._.
Oh no, I agree, 4chan goes to extremes a lot of the time. But Axelai is just an example- tbh I don't know her and I'd actually like to meet her, but I do know that she's said some not-very-nice things to a friend of mine.
But I really don't want any of you guys being posted on /cgl/. Not the people that cheered when we asked you guys to not make rape jokes. Y'all are too awesome for that.
I'm sure she had her reasons. I only act like a bitch to people if i have a good readon too...
And yeah, same here. I'd like to be able to meet her sometime. Along with a few other cosplay groups/cosplayers i've come to idolize.
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This might be naive (and I'll probably get flamed for it), but I think that people should be able to wear whatever they want (cosplay or otherwise) as long as they don't mean any harm to anyone else.
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This might be naive (and I'll probably get flamed for it), but I think that people should be able to wear whatever they want (cosplay or otherwise) as long as they don't mean any harm to anyone else.
Normally I'd agree with you, but considering that she'd be dressing up like the people who wanted to sterilize my ethnicity and make my ethnicity their slaves and use my best friend's race like animals in a zoo and genocide out plenty of other ethnicity and races and actually attempted it, this is going way too far, especially considering that people who had to suffer through the Holocaust are still alive today and still suffer from the trauma.
I wouldn't cosplay a KKK member, so why would I cosplay a Nazi?
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There are people that cosplay nazi's all the time and people don't care about it so why should this be different?
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There are people that cosplay nazi's all the time and people don't care about it so why should this be different?
"people don't care"
Uh. Where did you get that impression? Yes we do. Yes we do care.
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Well there were several people wearing the armbands last year did you do anything?
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Well there were several people wearing the armbands last year did you do anything?
Didn't see them. Had I seen them, I would've said something to them.
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Well there were several people wearing the armbands last year did you do anything?
Didn't see them. Had I seen them, I would've said something to them.
I don't meen to get into this... Because I understand from both points here.
BUT! What I did want to say was, last year I met with wonderfull hellsing cosplayer, and yes, she had the arm band and I talked to her about it, and we had a wonderfull talk about this kind of thing, and that she said she had only choose to were it because the character had it. And that (blah blah blah she ment nothing about it) and I KNOW nazis are extreammly offenive and what not, but the swastika, is really just lines. Thats all it is. Yes, it a symbol for the nazis, BUT it was first a symbol for buddists (or something like that).
What I am trying to say, it... If you see it, just ignore the cosplayer if you don't like it. Because it can make ussless drama, not just for your self, BUT for the cosplayer. I think the only time you should really talk to them about it, is if the are doing offencive things. (even though the swastika is offence, to alot of people.)
Because, if you think about it, alot of people are all ready offened by hetalia and people who cosplay it any way. (like, when I am dressed as Italy, when ever I am around older people I get really nervous because I don't wanna upset them.) And I know we are all trying to represent the fandom in a good way, and we all want to do our best and this is why we have our little small arguements... Because we all care for each other....
I am not saying you should "get over it." because its the past... Its really hard for people to do. But I am just trying to say, don't take it to the heart if its just an anime convention. Yes I know it can be hard, and some people may not be able to do it.
-sorry for my rambulling, I am not siding with any one..... BTW, just stating what I think-
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^ I agree %110
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Well there were several people wearing the armbands last year did you do anything?
Didn't see them. Had I seen them, I would've said something to them.
I don't meen to get into this... Because I understand from both points here.
BUT! What I did want to say was, last year I met with wonderfull hellsing cosplayer, and yes, she had the arm band and I talked to her about it, and we had a wonderfull talk about this kind of thing, and that she said she had only choose to were it because the character had it. And that (blah blah blah she ment nothing about it) and I KNOW nazis are extreammly offenive and what not, but the swastika, is really just lines. Thats all it is. Yes, it a symbol for the nazis, BUT it was first a symbol for buddists (or something like that).
What I am trying to say, it... If you see it, just ignore the cosplayer if you don't like it. Because it can make ussless drama, not just for your self, BUT for the cosplayer. I think the only time you should really talk to them about it, is if the are doing offencive things. (even though the swastika is offence, to alot of people.)
Because, if you think about it, alot of people are all ready offened by hetalia and people who cosplay it any way. (like, when I am dressed as Italy, when ever I am around older people I get really nervous because I don't wanna upset them.) And I know we are all trying to represent the fandom in a good way, and we all want to do our best and this is why we have our little small arguements... Because we all care for each other....
I am not saying you should "get over it." because its the past... Its really hard for people to do. But I am just trying to say, don't take it to the heart if its just an anime convention. Yes I know it can be hard, and some people may not be able to do it.
-sorry for my rambulling, I am not siding with any one..... BTW, just stating what I think-
Except there's a huuuge difference between cosplaying a country that has done some bad stuff and good stuff and cosplaying a character in a specific uniform that people wore while sending people to gas chambers and throwing their bodies into pits and burning them.
Not just that, she'll be running around in public where anyone can see. Where the elderly who may have had to survive that can see. I highly doubt she wants to trigger their PTSD.
I argue small points, I know. But this isn't a small point. This isn't something I don't care about like zoot suits. This is someone dressing up as the people who tried to kill my family in violent ways. It's not something I can easily ignore and it's not useless drama- It's serious.
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Just because we Hetalia fans, and fans of other animes, and con goers in general, can be friendly and ignore people we don't like at cons. That doesn't mean that the fandom and anyone else on the internet will too. If you cosplayed as a character who, in no mention in the anime or manga, is a nazi, and someone took pictures of you and put them on the internet. Prepare for Hell to break loose for both you and the fandom.
With that said, there is a huge difference between cosplaying as a human character who is a nazi, and cosplaying as a personification of a country that you make a nazi. Germany and Prussia were never mentioned as being Nazis in the anime or manga, and most likely never will be considering taking a country and turning it into a Nazi is pretty much the same thing as saying "this country is a Nazi", which is highly offensive.
To be truthful, i'm extremely upset that anyone on here would even have mind to even ask if cosplaying as a Nazi character would be fine.
No, it's not fine. And 99% of the Hetalia fandom would agree with me on that.
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I was totally planning not to post in this thread this year, but this isn't something I can leave alone. If I see someone with a swastika on at a con, you bet they're in for an extended conversation with me.
Please take every "you" in this post as a general you. I'm not addressing anyone in specific, unless you are someone who is planning to dress as a Nazi, swastika or no swastika. Then all of my upset is directed right at you.
I don't meen to get into this... Because I understand from both points here.
BUT! What I did want to say was, last year I met with wonderfull hellsing cosplayer, and yes, she had the arm band and I talked to her about it, and we had a wonderfull talk about this kind of thing, and that she said she had only choose to were it because the character had it. And that (blah blah blah she ment nothing about it) and I KNOW nazis are extreammly offenive and what not, but the swastika, is really just lines. Thats all it is. Yes, it a symbol for the nazis, BUT it was first a symbol for buddists (or something like that).
Symbols are only "just lines" if you have the privilege of not being viscerally, painfully afraid of what the symbol is representing. When you make cavalier use of the swastika, you are actively frightening and hurting me. You are reminding me that I live in a world with an enduring history of violence against my people, that my community lives in fear of the next round of expulsions, forced conversions, massacres and genocides.
This is a big deal to me. You have to understand that I do not have the privilege of ignoring these symbols so cavalierly. The fact that the swastika has its origins in other cultures doesn't change the fact I see it and my stomach bottoms out, and all I want is just shrink away, go somewhere where it can't find me, can't find my family and hurt us. I can't not take it to heart, and you don't get to tell me not to feel that way, because that's not how feelings work.
A Jewish friend of mine literally had an anxiety attack because of the Schrodinger cosplayer. That's how intense our reactions are. Even if you don't like me and want to see all the worst things happen to me, that friend is probably a stranger to you, and she definitely doesn't deserve to have her day ruined by someone who can't be bothered to acknowledge the feelings of people who aren't themselves. Is this really what you want Hetalia, and anime cosplayers in general, to have a reputation for?
What I am trying to say, it... If you see it, just ignore the cosplayer if you don't like it. Because it can make ussless drama, not just for your self, BUT for the cosplayer. I think the only time you should really talk to them about it, is if the are doing offencive things. (even though the swastika is offence, to alot of people.)
It isn't useless drama from my perspective. The less people think it's acceptable to cart around Nazi paraphernalia, the better. Because, again, it hurts me. It hurts other people. This isn't "boo you didn't like my prop my feelings are hurt," this is "Today, someone reminded me that I will never be truly safe in the world just because I am a Jew."
My parents left behind literally everything they knew to protect me from that feeling. So did a lot of other people's parents. The fact that I still carry it with me anyway should tell me that these symbols of hatred are still immensely powerful.
Because, if you think about it, alot of people are all ready offened by hetalia and people who cosplay it any way. (like, when I am dressed as Italy, when ever I am around older people I get really nervous because I don't wanna upset them.) And I know we are all trying to represent the fandom in a good way, and we all want to do our best and this is why we have our little small arguements... Because we all care for each other....
People are usually offended by Hetalia on a level of national pride, or because they find the portrayals historically inaccurate. That's pretty different from shock-horror-fear.
I agree that it would be great if Hetalia represented itself well. You know what never represents anything well, ever? Being a Nazi. No one is ever going to see you hanging out with someone who looks very similar to a Nazi and think, "That must be an upright community of people!" Unless they're Neo-Nazis.
I am not saying you should "get over it." because its the past... Its really hard for people to do. But I am just trying to say, don't take it to the heart if its just an anime convention. Yes I know it can be hard, and some people may not be able to do it.
I know you said you aren't telling us to "get over it," but actually you are. You're telling us to try to swallow back those unwanted, automatic associations with the swastika. That's not actually possible. And in the question of "people that suffer due to Nazis" and "people who want to dress up as Nazis for fun," I really feel like it's reasonable to side with the people who are going to suffer in a very real way.
What if my grandparents wanted to come to con, just to see what it was like? After all, this is a pretty big hobby for me, and it isn't unusual for family to be curious about their relative's hobbies. These are people who still suffer health effects as a result of living conditions during WW2. They're still keenly aware of the missing branches on my family tree. Could you tell them not to take it to heart?
And if I leave behind the question of how deeply painful and horrifying this is to me, there's also the fact that dressing up as Nazis at all offers tacit support to actual modern day neo Nazis and other white supremacists. If they see their symbols appearing outside of their own particular circles, they'll feel that they have wider acceptance and influence, which gives them encouragement to act. Which is even more extra scary than the echoes of misery that a lot of people just from the swastika itself.
Hetalia is a series with a lot of really great costumes, and a really wide, fascinating range of material, because as cosplayers, we can draw from any time period, or any alternate canon outfit. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest really strongly that you choose anything other than an explicitly horrifying costume, just for the sake of your fellow human being.
I'd like to reiterate again that none of the "you" in this post is a specific you. I am not trying to attack you, your post just had every single problematic argument that needed to be addressed in it.
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I'm just dropping by to say that I completely agree with the above statements of Malaria, Saki, and Miria with this. I'm a jokster myself and have a horrible sense of humor and find sickening things amusing. But I do not find this appropriate or amusing.
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Interjecting in, but agreeing with the fact that it's tasteless and is a huge trigger for people. Here's why:
Yes, as it's been pointed out, the symbol itself was ripped off from a more peaceful religion, but that doesn't suddenly make all the atrocities committed by the Nazi party under Hitler and the SS disappear.
Thing is, it isn't just the swastika that is the trigger, it's the whole uniform.
Would you really want to risk psychological damage to random people on the street who either lived through the Holocaust or have really close relatives who did so, that know nothing about conventions and don't understand cosplaying as a whole, just because you want to wear the uniform from their personal nightmares? Just because other people have cosplayed the same uniform and you personally did not see anyone comment on it, or because you can't see into others' minds doesn't mean there was no damage.
As per people already disliking Hetalia, this current train of discussion is a good reason why some people do. They don't know about the fact it's silly stereotypes or that it doesn't touch upon serious subjects. They just see the people who use it as a selfish excuse to parade around in Nazi uniforms, and the people who don't behave and do stupid stunts (Once again, bringing up Anime Boston).
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...
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Thank you for disrespecting my family. Thank you for disrespecting every single one of the 12 million people murdered in the Holocaust. Thank you for ruining my night [deleted by moderator].
I'll edit this post once I calm down, but I figured I may as well show you the kinds of emotions your post gave me. Protip: THEY WEREN'T GOOD.
And by the way? My family isn't Jewish. We're Poles. Never once did anyone in this thread claim that only Jews were in the concentration camps because if they were my great-grandfather wouldn't have been shot and tortured in Auschwitz and my grandfather wouldn't have been sent to Auschwitz and the Nazis wouldn't have dehumanized the Poles, the Roma, and every other ethnic group who they thought were sub-human.
(Removed inappropriate content per forum code of conduct. ~randompvg)
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I think what Titus was trying to say is that everyone makes their own choices, and that if someone wants to cosplay something that offends people, they will. If those people want to become offended, they will. Regardless of how many walls of text are posted, that wont change. Hopefully, even if some of you get offended by someone else's cosplay, you won't just march up to the cosplayer and tell them that their cosplay is offensive and they shouldn't be wearing it, because that could not only start a fight, but you may (just may) be putting yourself in a bad situation by doing so. (Not all cosplayers wearing a uniform similar to the Nazi uniform are cosplaying as Nazis, as Titus's example of her friend cosplaying the Red Ribbon Army character illustrates, and misunderstandings can cause unintended drama and hurt feelings, too)
As for the long talk about the holocaust and her post that it was not the only one....I think she meant that if we're going to go into a discussion about how bad it was, and why people shouldn't be cosplaying it, it's neccessary to note that almost any military uniform would have similar reactions in certain people. Germany was not the only country that committed atrocious war-crimes, or tried to sterilize an entire ethnic population (or several). They are just the one we seem to pay the most attention to today. Should Hetalia cosplayers avoid wearing military uniforms at all in order to avoid causing unwanted emotional reactions in anyone whose family had personal history in any number of wars?
I don't think any of us have the right to tell someone not to wear a cosplay they want to wear, it's their own choice. We have the right to our opinions, and the right to say "That cosplay would bring bad memories, and offend me, so I would like you not to wear it, if you care not to cause those emotions in me or others," but that's about all any of us can really do. Going on and on about whether or not someone has the right to wear it at all won't really help, and instead just causes more drama as people take sides.
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I think what Titus was trying to say is that everyone makes their own choices, and that if someone wants to cosplay something that offends people, they will. If those people want to become offended, they will. Regardless of how many walls of text are posted, that wont change. Hopefully, even if some of you get offended by someone else's cosplay, you won't just march up to the cosplayer and tell them that their cosplay is offensive and they shouldn't be wearing it, because that could not only start a fight, but you may (just may) be putting yourself in a bad situation by doing so. (Not all cosplayers wearing a uniform similar to the Nazi uniform are cosplaying as Nazis, as Titus's example of her friend cosplaying the Red Ribbon Army character illustrates, and misunderstandings can cause unintended drama and hurt feelings, too)
As for the long talk about the holocaust and her post that it was not the only one....I think she meant that if we're going to go into a discussion about how bad it was, and why people shouldn't be cosplaying it, it's neccessary to note that almost any military uniform would have similar reactions in certain people. Germany was not the only country that committed atrocious war-crimes, or tried to sterilize an entire ethnic population (or several). They are just the one we seem to pay the most attention to today. Should Hetalia cosplayers avoid wearing military uniforms at all in order to avoid causing unwanted emotional reactions in anyone whose family had personal history in any number of wars?
I don't think any of us have the right to tell someone not to wear a cosplay they want to wear, it's their own choice. We have the right to our opinions, and the right to say "That cosplay would bring bad memories, and offend me, so I would like you not to wear it, if you care not to cause those emotions in me or others," but that's about all any of us can really do. Going on and on about whether or not someone has the right to wear it at all won't really help, and instead just causes more drama as people take sides.
^ thank you I am happy someone understood my post and knew what i was talking about. I do not think I was wrong NOR was i being racist to anyone. and MiriaRose I am not saying that it was only jewish people it was everyone gays and what not as well I am not trying to offend people nor am I being an ass but You all need to understand what ever costume you wear can offend everyone even any hetlia charater.
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Well for one, people can stop being so **** stubborn and just listen to people when they say "This is wrong and you shouldn't do it." People can't just do whatever the Hell they want.
Two, cosplaying as people who fought in actual wars for freedom and all that ****, and cosplaying as people who threw innocent people into gas chambers to let them choke to death on poison gas, only to throw the dead bodies into ovens for no good reason other then being **** insane, horrible, and racist are completely different.
Let me make this clear again [deleted by moderator]:
COSPLAYING AS A NAZI IS NOT OK.
(Removed inappropriate content per forum code of conduct. ~randompvg)
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Well for one, people can stop being so **** stubborn and just listen to people when they say "This is wrong and you shouldn't do it." People can't just do whatever the Hell they want.
Two, cosplaying as people who fought in actual wars for freedom and all that ****, and cosplaying as people who threw innocent people into gas chambers to let them choke to death on poison gas, only to throw the dead bodies into ovens for no good reason other then being **** insane, horrible, and racist are completely different.
Let me make this clear again so you can get it into your tiny brains:
COSPLAYING AS A NAZI IS NOT OK.
I did not say it was okay nor that is was not I was stating that people make a choice in doing what they want and when they want. I see nouthing in my post stating that is was a okay thing i was stating if that person wanted to it is their choice either good or bad. they have to live with the mistake. saki please calm down.
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Alright, I'm slightly more calmed down. But I'm not going to edit my post. It needed to be said.
I know that I told myself I was done but in fact that blackfeather can pick what ever costume she wants to do. it is her choice to do it or not she is the one who has to pay the price. for her choices.
Yes, but she's not the only one who has to pay for her choices. Everyone else has to as well. Like me, getting a panic attack from reading your post. Because I have panic disorder and my family is still affected by the Holocaust 70 years later.
I don't normally mention my mental illness on the internet unless it's somewhere where I don't see most of the people irl regularly, but I feel it has to be said here to prove a point: You don't know who you're talking to and you could seriously hurt someone. Considering I don't have a roommate and if things got worse, I'd be in physical danger with no one to help me except for people on the internet.
So thank you.
along with other people . you have a right to speak your mind but telling a person not to wear something is sometimes a bit to much.
If she's entitled to wear something that will trigger very, very bad things, then I'm 'entitled' to tell her to not wear it. Especially if I'm one of those people who will be triggered.
1. it can start a fight or an augment.
I don't know. I think my family and my friends are worth fighting for.
2. you can end up making a mistake. (as being told you might end up speaking to a person who was not wearing one but looked as if they were becuse you were to hot headed to relize that it wasent the corecct arm band .) Last year my friend was cosplaying someone from the Red Ribbon army from Dragon Ball and she was verbally attacked by some people becuse they didn't relize her armband was not what they thought it was.[/quote]
I've actually gotten furious at a Cartman cosplayer who went up to me once because I thought she was making Nazi jokes seriously. It turned out that she was just being in-character, but we had a good discussion and it all turned out well, and I'm glad I spoke to her. And honestly, when someone is talking about cosplaying a **** Nazi, I think they're talking about an actual Nazi.
You can not tell a person what to do or how to do things even with speaking to them about it .
I'm not telling her what to do. I'm telling her why it's a bad idea.
We are in a time were young people do not understand nor care about these things anymore.
Tell that to the people in my World History class who cried during Schindler's List. Tell that to Valeria, Kei, Saki, and I- All under the age of 20. We are young people and we do understand and care. Please do not generalize; it is incredibly offensive and ageist.
It was a past event. it was a event that many people are sad about or regreat.
And guess what? It was a past event that still affects people today. Please, why don't you try explaining to my babcia why Neo-Nazis can be good people too? Because she almost broke down when she found out I was learning German. That's how badly World War II affects her, still, after 70 years.
I belive if you all calm down and understand why a person want to cosplay such a thing it is their choice on what statment they are making good or bad.
No, it is not their choice on what statement they are making, because people will see them and make assumptions on what statement they are making.
I will tell you all know there are still Nazi in the world to this day They wear their armbands they have them in their lockers trust me i went to school with some of them.
Wow! Thank you for explaining that to me! I would have never guessed!
you have to rember that. This is a time were we are bring our past back our good and bads. remaking a mistake that we made many years ago.
What are you even trying to say? Your spelling and grammar make it hard to decipher.
YOU all think that is a fight to tell someone off when you can make it even worse then what it should be. you can get hurt in the prosses if you encounter a person who is really at Nazi themself. and are offended by your act of words.
My great-grandfather was brutally interrogated, tortured, and eventually shot by the Nazis for defending his family, his countrymen, his beliefs. My babcia would have been shot if the Nazis found her smuggling a Jewish woman out of Poland.
I think I can handle a potential broken nose. Whether they can handle being sued is an entirely different thing.
The People who worked hard on Hetalia made it so we can learn and be entertained. trust me my little cusen passed her history test becuse she watched the show and learned about what had happen in history.
Anyone who knows anything about history can tell you that Hetalia is not in any way, shape, or form historically accurate.
I am not one to speak nor do I give a S*** what anyone thinks of me.
I never would have guessed.
If you want to know the truth Black feather if you want to cosplay a nazi then do it.
And be prepared to deal with the consequences- Such as alienating yourself from the entire Hetalia fandom, getting posted on /cgl/ and having your personal info given to anonymous, etc. That happens.
MiriaRose If you want talk to a person about it and tell them their at the wrong then do it.
. . Uh, okay? I thought you were criticizing me for doing just that.
You all make choices Stupid and smart ones and by telling other cosplays what and what not to do can become a mistake all in one. as I said you can get hurt or worse.
'Kay. But my family members risked death- and some of them did die- fighting for what they believed in. As I said before, a broken nose is no big deal. I already look like I have a broken nose. Go Slavic noses!
the truth is you all want to learn about history go to class and learn you want to honnor lives that are no longer of this world well do it.
I'm a Performing Arts and Social Justice major. Social. Justice. I go to a Jesuit university in San Francisco. Of course I honour lives.
in fact This whole nazi thing is just a joke now and days just like being gay is becomming a joke to people.
Nazis aren't funny. Also, your argument is invalid. As a queer person myself I find "being gay" as a joke to be a very stupid and offensive joke.
life is a choice you all make your own. in the end you make yourself look bad depending on that very choice you make.
Then why are you critiquing me for my decisions?
BTW what is the differance if the symbols on a cosplay when people wear them in plays all the time. "sound of music " for example."
The Sound of Music is a musical. That's a completely different thing. How you can even compare acting and cosplay eludes me.
You guys are just pissing echother off over a thing that can't be stopped.
I actually wasn't emotionally affected too much until you posted. Then I had a panic attack.
-gives lazy look- ever country has their down fall and I'd have to say America is the worst of them all becuse they make that mistake look worse and worse by the years becuse of people who think it was such a bad thing (not that it wasen't) but we did the SAME THING to native americans. asian(japanese) ecta
"The American Indian Holocaust, know as the "500 year war" and the "World's Longest Holocaust In The History Of Mankind And Loss Of Human Lives."
America did terrible things to First Nations. America did terrible things to Japanese-Americans. But it was nothing like this. And you know what? If I saw someone cosplaying a Buffalo Soldier I would bitch them out just like I would bitch out someone cosplaying a Nazi.
and also in WW2 america did the same thing to the Japanese. so int he end we are no differnt just think all your grandparents and greatgrandparents who were in WW2 could of been one of those WHO did that to those people
^
point we did the same thing that hitlar did.
I just spoke to four Japanese-American women who lived in the concentration camps in Southern California today. They said that their experience wasn't anything like what the Holocaust victims had to go through. My paternal grandfather didn't fight any Japanese people, as he was part of the Polish resistance, and my maternal grandfather wasn't allowed to join the US army because he had bad teeth.
we made that choice and it was a mistake so why not talk about that as well . becuse I m part black foot native american shouldnt my people get some words in here to and btw it wasent just Jewish people thrown in those camps Gays were thrown in there too.
I feel like someone who was Blackfoot would be able to spell it properly. Also, honestly, your implication that only gay and Jewish people suffered in the concentration camps is deeply offensive and it doesn't even help your argument- It hurts it. It reminds everyone persecuted by the Nazis that we have to be afraid because there are people out there who want to kill and torture us for things we cannot change and never can change, and that is exactly why they hate us.
And some information for you all:
as I said I been around people who are like this and they were good people who had their own choices.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism
No. Neo-Nazis are not good people. I don't care what you say; you are walking a fine line.
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Well for one, people can stop being so **** stubborn and just listen to people when they say "This is wrong and you shouldn't do it." People can't just do whatever the Hell they want.
Two, cosplaying as people who fought in actual wars for freedom and all that ****, and cosplaying as people who threw innocent people into gas chambers to let them choke to death on poison gas, only to throw the dead bodies into ovens for no good reason other then being **** insane, horrible, and racist are completely different.
Let me make this clear again [deleted by moderator]:
COSPLAYING AS A NAZI IS NOT OK.
I did not say it was okay nor that is was not I was stating that people make a choice in doing what they want and when they want. I see nouthing in my post stating that is was a okay thing i was stating if that person wanted to it is their choice either good or bad. they have to live with the mistake. saki please calm down.
If they didn't going in the goddamn first place, then they wouldn't need to live it down. I don't give a **** about the people who have [deleted by moderator] state of mind to cosplay as such a thing, i care about the fandom and what [deleted by moderator] will do to it if they do such a thing.
(Removed inappropriate content per forum code of conduct. ~randompvg)
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I am done you all can forget about me in anything hetalia. peace
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@Saki: I'm not saying that cosplaying as a Nazi is "okay". I'm not saying anything of the sort. My point is that people will cosplay what they want, and whether or not you tell them on the forum that they "can't do that", if they are determined to, they will anyway. Its fine if you want to say "cosplaying a nazi is offensive to myself and a great many other people, and really, you shouldn't do it"...which as far as I can tell was said several PAGES ago. Telling them "you are not allowed" just causes unwanted drama and a huge discussion which can cause rifts and sometimes break friendships if two people are on opposite sides of it.
What I can see is that Jacob_Blackfeather asked if it would be offensive if she cosplayed the Prussian SS Uniform, she was told it would be. After that, it would be her choice whether or not to wear an offensive cosplay or not, and if doing so caused other cosplayers to shun her, that would be on her own shoulders. If it caused someone a panic attack and they decided to sue her for it, that would be her own problem as well, since the advice was already given and whether it's taken is ultimately up the person deciding on their cosplay. This discussion is becoming less than civil, as far as I see it, and in the interest of not having to have a mod come in and tell us all to stop it (again), I would like to request a change of subject, please.
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[Part of this post has been deleted by a moderator. Rathany]
Regardless of how many walls of text are posted, that wont change. Hopefully, even if some of you get offended by someone else's cosplay, you won't just march up to the cosplayer and tell them that their cosplay is offensive and they shouldn't be wearing it, because that could not only start a fight, but you may (just may) be putting yourself in a bad situation by doing so. (Not all cosplayers wearing a uniform similar to the Nazi uniform are cosplaying as Nazis, as Titus's example of her friend cosplaying the Red Ribbon Army character illustrates, and misunderstandings can cause unintended drama and hurt feelings, too)
I don't randomly begin screaming at people unless they come up to me and ask if they should go and kill all the Jews with me (which was a misunderstanding as well, but we sorted it out). And yes, if I do see someone cosplaying a Nazi, I am going to go and talk to them about it. I'm happy for you- You have the privilege to be able to ignore blatant insults towards your culture.
As for the long talk about the holocaust and her post that it was not the only one....I think she meant that if we're going to go into a discussion about how bad it was, and why people shouldn't be cosplaying it, it's neccessary to note that almost any military uniform would have similar reactions in certain people. Germany was not the only country that committed atrocious war-crimes, or tried to sterilize an entire ethnic population (or several).
Except people don't tend to cosplay the uniforms of the people who were causing these war crimes. Which Jacob wants to do.
They are just the one we seem to pay the most attention to today. Should Hetalia cosplayers avoid wearing military uniforms at all in order to avoid causing unwanted emotional reactions in anyone whose family had personal history in any number of wars?
No, but we should avoid wearing blatantly offensive uniforms like the SS uniforms.
I don't think any of us have the right to tell someone not to wear a cosplay they want to wear, it's their own choice. We have the right to our opinions, and the right to say "That cosplay would bring bad memories, and offend me, so I would like you not to wear it, if you care not to cause those emotions in me or others," but that's about all any of us can really do. Going on and on about whether or not someone has the right to wear it at all won't really help, and instead just causes more drama as people take sides.
I'm sorry, but no. You do not have the 'right' to wear something that brings up PTSD. Please don't act so entitled.
Titus: Okay. Third time's the charm, right?
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I haven't read through either the entirety of Titus' or Hikaru's posts, but this I had to respond to right now before I start shaking too much to reply. I'm sorry if this is disjointed, but I can't think straight.
point we did the same thing that hitlar did. we made that choice and it was a mistake so why not talk about that as well . becuse I m part black foot native american shouldnt my people get some words in here to and btw it wasent just Jewish people thrown in those camps Gays were thrown in there too.
And some information for you all:
as I said I been around people who are like this and they were good people who had their own choices.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism
That part I bolded? I have no words. I'm going to go off the assumption that you aren't fully aware of exactly what Hitler planned to do with North America, and how he was going to turn Natives into little more than slaves.
But that's not why that statement is so hurtful.
It's a sorry day when a person has to point out their race for their words to mean anything.
Why am I saying that?
I'm enrolled member of the Shoshone-Bannock tribe, and have several other tribes in my ancestry.
My words were in on this issue.
I know exactly what sort of atrocities my ancestors have had to go through, some as close as my great-grandfather.
As for Neo-Nazis? They're not nice people.
I should know, as I have personally met a few and could not get away from them any faster.
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I would like to request of EVERYONE involved in this discussion to take a step back and look at what you are writing. This is becoming very uncivil, as the fact that the race or skin color of someone posting on the forums should never be considered a factor in a discussion at all. What my ethnicity is has nothing to do with what my opinion is and whether I consider that everyone has rights, and that what someone chooses to cosplay is ultimately up to them, not the people they were simply asking advice from on the forums.
Since my request for a change of subject is likely to be ignored, I would at least hope that all of us can bring this back to a civil level, please. Thank you.
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I'll take this moment to voice my opinion on the subject...
I think many of you have presented great evidence for both sides of the argument, to be honest. Prior to this, I didn't really care one way or the other. Since the majority of the show (at least the Axis Powers episodes) had a strong focus on the WWII section of time, I found (and still do) the Nazi uniforms to be quite accurate.
As a Jew, I hate what the Nazis did. However, I know that not all of them liked doing it. Heck, there are records of some Nazi soldiers who refused to do those atrocious acts, and they themselves became prisoners of the camps, too. Not all Nazis were bad people; we could even use Oskar Schindler as an example (even though he was never a soldier, he was affiliated with the political party).
I can see people being offended by the Nazi uniform, for many reasons. With this being said, I can fully understand why some people would oppose this version of Germany being cosplayed at cons. I personally still don't care one way or the other if someone does or not. I know good and well that the cosplayer is dressing up as a character, and am thinking of them as nothing more than being on the same level as an actor.
The option to be Nazi Germany should still be there. However, I do think that anyone who is, or will be, considering this idea should balance out the pros and cons presented in these... "debates."
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Rathany's and Bresslol's warnings are still in the parent thread, so I'd like to reiterate:
Strong feelings and strong words are okay as long as they stay PG-13, but personal attacks of any sort will not be tolerated. If you have any question about whether it could be seen as a personal attack, don't post it.
If you see a personal attack, this does not make it okay to do the same in response. Please report it, and let the mods deal with it. That's what we're here for.
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Hahaha What I like about these arguments is its always the one person that starts with, "I know Im going to get crap for this BUT..." And then they do get crap for it, then their friends come in and defend them and we are suppose to feel bad for them? Uh, no. XD You know this was going to happen.
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The following is the opinion of the poster and does not reflect any of the titles, companies or groups the poster is affiliated with
(or if you prefer; don't take what I say as mod words or director words or any of that :) )
There seems to be two issues going on here, and I'm on one side of one of them, and not quite sure on the other.
#1 What kind of ____!Germany/Prussia/Italy/Uganda/Kyrgzstan are you "allowed" to be.
Obviously the answer to this question is; as a free citizen of the United States of America, your religious and political and non religious and non political affiliations can reflect whatever opinion, choice or motive YOU want. And as long as you are not infringing upon the rights of others, they can dislike it, and they can ask you to stop, but they cannot legally silence you. I cannot find precedent for a cease and desist was upheld based on emotional damages. That doesn't mean it's right, it just means that's the status quo. Those Neo-Nazi's and KKK and Black Panther and Taliban members are allowed to continue to meet and discuss because they are protected by right to assemble and right to free speech. However, the moment they physically infringe upon your person, or your rights - it becomes another story entirely.
So long story short, you can, without fear of legal action wear any sort of cosplay you choose even if it is KKK!America.... HOWEVER:
Much like Pedobear - we have rules at the convention, and Cosplay that are Inflamatory or offensive are not permitted. We have not yet made a rule against Swastika itself or SS uniforms, but if we receive reports of offense and stress, the convention holds the right to tell you to take it off, at least in Convention grounds - we can't stop you from wearing it on public property, but we can keep you out of our convention space.
ANOTHER point on this I'd like to make; while I've always sort of understood the gender bending versions of characters, I'm still not completely understanding of the "1001 ways to be Germany/Japan/Yugoslavia" or what have you. Isn't it normally considered that, the outfit the character wears, is what you Cosplay? AFAIK Germany is always seen wearing a WWI era uniform and sometimes a generic WWII style (although it doesn't seem much different) and then a few other basic outfits. Similarly - other characters have rather bland, but clearly distinct outfits that represent, but do not always EMBELLISH their country. If we haven't ever seen Germany wear a Nazi symbol, or even an iron cross really (I think he has one?) where is the reasoning behind cosplaying it? Maybe that's Cosplay Snobbery on my part but, if its not a part of the show/manga... then its more fan-fiction cosplay... and I just... don't get it...
#2 Is Cosplaying a NAZI wrong?
I... I don't know. Because I feel like that is putting one incredibly horrible group up on a pedestal and saying "No one can ever be as scary, no one in history was ever as horrible or merciless and fearsome and we will continue to cower under the image and sight of it all our lives and our children's lives and on and on."
I respect people whose families faced the horrors and that your experience may vary on how you cope with atrocities, but I also think its a bit arrogant of the Children of the Children of a crime to decide what is and isn't acceptable. After all, we allow people to cosplay as Cowboys, yet the marshal's and militiamen who drove Native Americans from their homes were dressed so similarly.
I've seen only a smidgeon few of these but Huan and Mongol Cosplays might have the same emotional response for those children of Southern Chinese ancestry.
Perhaps the answer to all this is time; in the years as horrors fade, we stop giving the things we fear power over us and start taking back our lives from the shadows; and different peoples and nationalities may respond and bounce back differently, over different times. But the children of the children of the attacks on Pearl Harbor, the Children of the Children of the 9/11 attrocities, of the Sudanese massacres, of the war crimes in our lives, our children's children, do we want them to live in fear of an image, of a style of dress, of a name? Or rise above it; recognize its defeat and face it point blank and say; this is meaningless - because it is the shadow of an evil that was defeated, that ended, rather than dwelling on the pain, we can dwell on the perseverance and the strength that in the end proved the movement of Hitler's War Machine to be futile and weak.
At my school we were blessed to get a lot of the holocaust survivors from our area to speak to us. One of my favorites was a woman who didn't speak very strong English, so her daughter would interpret, and she talked about going back to Germany and seeing the remaining fragments of the political mentality that had swept a lot of the youth, the confusion of kids who had been brainwashed to see her as a thing, and a nuisance vs. the general shame and communal sorrow most Germans felt. I don't remember quite exactly how she worded it but it was something akin to; her heart still raced when she thought about the camps, and how her mother and father were treated, how she was treated as a small girl, but that she refused to let the fear into her heart anymore; because they had WON and they had their lives back: she wasn't ever going to give them power over her again.
That's not really a mentality all people can have; but its a mentality I reflect on often when I think about words or pictures or symbols and how they affect me: Its one of my most treasured lessons from our Holocaust studies, do I let the past and the shadows of the past terrorize me, or do I power myself through to give them no hold on my psyche? I always try to strengthen myself but I can admit that some things still freak me out.
I'd WANT to believe that cosplaying a Nazi is no more wrong than cosplaying Rome (who also enslaved and tortured Hebrews, Africans and anyone else they could get their hands on) or a person wearing Islamic garb and an AK-47, or a Huan warrior, or a Cowboy - all of these groups committed horrendous atrocities against humanity (I'd add in Sudanese marauders and Phillipino/South Pacific Pirates but it's hard to pinpoint other than maybe One Piece where either of those groups might be relevant). Every single human life is precious and the horrors committed by the extremists of the Nazi Party led by Hitler in Germany may be the most remembered and the most... successful? (that's a horrible word for it but i am sure you understand my meaning) But they by no means have a monopoly on what invokes fear in peoples hearts. A person wearing a cross might make a devout wiccan or pagan panic from the fear of persecution and even ostracism that were done to their kin. There is too much hate and too much fear in this world.
People should know that Cosplay as a NAZI when there is NO CANONICAL REASON to, is not just kinda rude and inappropriate, but silly. Van Hellsing cosplayers have been handling this for years with delicacy and understanding, some pushing the envelope, but all in all most are respectful. Hetalia Cosplayers have neither a rhyme nor a reason for Cosplaying as any character in Nazi garb as far as I can tell for that and one other reason; What does it really benefit or add to the cosplay? Authenticity? I'd deny that because if the character didn't have it, its not really authentic, its additional junk to detract from the truth of the cosplay.
Lets be strong and knowledgeable, compassionate members of fandom and remember that, people are gonna push limits and boundaries, and people are gonna be dipsticks, not just in inappropriate dress but in comments and actions, and that one may weight heavier for you than it does for others. We all swallow a bit of poison, lets just try and work together to make sure it never becomes a lethal dose!
Anyway... thats my $3.45 of perspective! And interesting conversation no doubt about it! Reminds me of Speech and Debate where I once had to debate in the Affirmative of the Resolution: This House Believes the Holocaust was exaggerated. :) I miss those days when they'd challenge us with incredibly difficult debates like that!
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Hahaha What I like about these arguments is its always the one person that starts with, "I know Im going to get crap for this BUT..." And then they do get crap for it, then their friends come in and defend them and we are suppose to feel bad for them? Uh, no. XD You know this was going to happen.
bro, seriously
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I'll take this moment to voice my opinion on the subject...
I think many of you have presented great evidence for both sides of the argument, to be honest. Prior to this, I didn't really care one way or the other. Since the majority of the show (at least the Axis Powers episodes) had a strong focus on the WWII section of time, I found (and still do) the Nazi uniforms to be quite accurate.
Except that in the show they wear the uniforms of the military, not the SS. The SS wasn't the German military, even if there was a military section of the SS. In the show, Germany wears a modified WWI uniform and Prussia wears a Luftwaffe uniform. Most of the people in the Luftwaffe were not part of the Nazi party.
As a Jew, I hate what the Nazis did. However, I know that not all of them liked doing it. Heck, there are records of some Nazi soldiers who refused to do those atrocious acts, and they themselves became prisoners of the camps, too. Not all Nazis were bad people; we could even use Oskar Schindler as an example (even though he was never a soldier, he was affiliated with the political party).
Oskar Schindler wasn't a member of the SS and didn't believe in the Nazi philosophy. He wanted to make money and once he realized how horrible the Nazis were, he chose to save his workers. That's very, very different.
Nazi Hetalia characters wouldn't exactly be those people who refused to do those atrocious acts.
I can see people being offended by the Nazi uniform, for many reasons. With this being said, I can fully understand why some people would oppose this version of Germany being cosplayed at cons. I personally still don't care one way or the other if someone does or not. I know good and well that the cosplayer is dressing up as a character, and am thinking of them as nothing more than being on the same level as an actor.
Except in acting, you're portraying a character to tell a story. That's different than cosplay. I do understand that the cosplayer is dressing up as a character, but in this case they are also cosplaying a character who is part of an organization that did terrible, disturbing things. In addition, most people walking by on the street who are not congoers would not understand the context.
The option to be Nazi Germany should still be there. However, I do think that anyone who is, or will be, considering this idea should balance out the pros and cons presented in these... "debates."
Actually, Jacob didn't want to cosplay Nazi Germany; she wanted to cosplay Nazi Prussia. Which really was only a Nazi state because of the people running it- The Prussian aristocracy disliked the Nazis very much.
Hahaha What I like about these arguments is its always the one person that starts with, "I know Im going to get crap for this BUT..." And then they do get crap for it, then their friends come in and defend them and we are suppose to feel bad for them? Uh, no. XD You know this was going to happen.
+1
Anyway... thats my $3.45 of perspective! And interesting conversation no doubt about it! Reminds me of Speech and Debate where I once had to debate in the Affirmative of the Resolution: This House Believes the Holocaust was exaggerated. :) I miss those days when they'd challenge us with incredibly difficult debates like that!
Ouch, serious? That's a really hard resolution.
The worst one I ever got was where I said we should build a wall between us and Mexico, as our resolution was on immigration policy. Our opponents called us racist, but because the round was weighed in net-benefits we literally said, "So what? You didn't impact it out and it's too late for you to."
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Except that in the show they wear the uniforms of the military, not the SS. The SS wasn't the German military, even if there was a military section of the SS. In the show, Germany wears a modified WWI uniform and Prussia wears a Luftwaffe uniform. Most of the people in the Luftwaffe were not part of the Nazi party.
...um, okay. I'm not quite sure exactly what you're arguing, since it looks like you're bringing up various random points that I don't think really fit into what you had quoted.
Oskar Schindler wasn't a member of the SS and didn't believe in the Nazi philosophy. He wanted to make money and once he realized how horrible the Nazis were, he chose to save his workers. That's very, very different.
I never said he was an SS nor that he agreed with the Nazis; he did, however, hang out with high-ranking SS officers and he did join the Nazi party in 1939 (or 1938, but I'm almost sure it was 39). In fact, he was a member of a party that had different stances on most politac aspects of the time from the Nazis a few years prior. His membership was, pure and simple, a business move. I never said differently.
Either way, I gave my opinion. Like it or not, but that's what it is.
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Except that in the show they wear the uniforms of the military, not the SS. The SS wasn't the German military, even if there was a military section of the SS. In the show, Germany wears a modified WWI uniform and Prussia wears a Luftwaffe uniform. Most of the people in the Luftwaffe were not part of the Nazi party.
...um, okay. I'm not quite sure exactly what you're arguing, since it looks like you're bringing up various random points that I don't think really fit into what you had quoted.
Uh, no. I'm saying that their uniforms are strictly military- Not Schutzstaffel. Therefore, it really makes no sense for them to wear those SS uniforms.
Oskar Schindler wasn't a member of the SS and didn't believe in the Nazi philosophy. He wanted to make money and once he realized how horrible the Nazis were, he chose to save his workers. That's very, very different.
I never said he was an SS nor that he agreed with the Nazis; he did, however, hang out with high-ranking SS officers and he did join the Nazi party in 1939 (or 1938, but I'm almost sure it was 39). In fact, he was a member of a party that had different stances on most politac aspects of the time from the Nazis a few years prior. His membership was, pure and simple, a business move. I never said differently.
Uhm, okay? That's still different than this.
Either way, I gave my opinion. Like it or not, but that's what it is.
And we're discussing said opinion now.
Also, I like how no one on the pro side is addressing the fact that this could trigger people who are not congoers who are walking by minding their own business.
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Sorry to be arriving so late in the discussion. Ironically, I took a little time away from the forums to say my prayers for Rosh HaShanah. L'Shana Tova to all to whom this applies.
I am Jewish. I did not get to know anything about 1/4 of my family, from Gdansk, Poland, because there's no records & they are presumed murdered by the Nazis. My maternal grandmother's earliest memory was at age 3 hiding in a neighbor's attic with her family, having no idea why, being cold and hungry and crying, and hearing, in Yiddish, from another hidden Jew, "If the baby doesn't stop crying, we'll have to kill it."
She never told anyone that memory until I, knowing nothing of this history, innocently asked her her earliest memory for an assignment in a Psych class in college. She was about 65 years old when she finally told that story. Can you imagine living alone with that memory for 62 years? Can you? Neither can I. How dare anyone even consider making sport for photos needlessly and callously with a known inflammatory symbol, especially when it's not even canon.
I'm from Skokie, Illinois. You know why I don't have any tattoos? Because the first ones I saw were involuntary. Senior citizens who had survived Auschwitz-Berkenau, Dachau, what-have-you, whose names had been replaced with numbers. Seniors who on 90 degree days in muggy sweltering Chicago heat would wear long sleeves to try to cover up those numbers.
Our town was known as a haven for survivors, escapees, and resisters of the murder camps. For this reason, the American Nazi Party tried to march there in 1977-8. The Village refused to authorize the march, on the grounds that the Police were not willing to state that they could nor were willing to protect the marchers from the inevitable riots. The ANP hired the ACLU. There is a movie about this, called Skokie, and a book about it, the movie stars Danny Kaye and was internationally distributed. It's even at the JCC in Auckland, NZ. Anyway.
There were many, many court cases involved, circuit court, state court, appellate court, state supreme court, U S Supreme Court. Various courts upheld that public display of the swastika would be akin to subjecting the 1/6 of the Skokie population who had directly lived though the Holocaust, to physical violence and being retraumatized. That's right, one in 6 people in my hometown were survivors, escapees, or resisters. This case provides legal precedent for barring public display of the symbol in certain circumstances.
Therefore the group did not march in Skokie. They marched in Marquette Park, and they were outnumbered immensely by protestors. But in the meantime they had split and emotionally exhausted my hometown, and it was a horrible, scarring experience for many survivors, escapees and resisters.
And so do I have very intense views on this subject? Heck yeah. I think it is disgusting that, with a zillion other cosplay options, anyone would insist on deliberately wearing one that was guaranteed to be a PTSD trigger to people. Especially if it is not required within the canon of the show, and they're just embellishing for some unknown reason. I can't even imagine what would propel someone to be that entirely thoughtless and selfish.
And yes, there is precedent, formal, legal, precedent, for barring the swastika from clothing, in contexts in which it would elicit a harmful response.
BTW, I worked in residential supports for adults with developmental disabilities, for years. Most do not know, that adults with developmental disabilities were the very first the Nazis murdered as part of their genocidal campaigns. I am ashamed to say that, even with my mom being part of putting the local Holocaust Memorial statue in my hometown, I did not know this until I went to the Simon Wiesenthal Museum in Los Angeles. If anyone gets a chance to visit it, it's a life-changing experience. BTW I was at the opening day of the Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C. If you get a chance to go there, do, but be prepared, it is horrifying. Very visceral. You get given a passport. It is a real identity of someone from the era. As you walk through the building there are machines in which you place your passport and the next line of your persona's history is entered. You don't know if your persona lives or dies until you get to the end of the building.....and most die....
Oh, and in kindergarten my best friend was Japanese and her dad had survived an internment camp at Manzanar. Yes, those were horrible experiences, incredibly racist thing to do. No, they in no way compare to Nazi Concentration Camps, there were no mass executions, and genocide was not the goal.
Thank you to MiriaRose for reminding people of so many other populations murdered in the camps and elsewhere by Nazis. Yes 6 million Jews were murdered, and so also were 6 million others, including gays and lesbians, Catholics, trade unionists, Poles, aforementioned developmentally disabled people, Roma, and undoubtedly many others. May all thus martyred rest in peace.
I hadn't decided where to put my Tzedakah this Rosh HaShanah but now I'm thinking maybe the Weisenthal movement.....there undoubtedly are still Nazis to hunt. Of all things, Glee (with Carole Burnett playing Sue Sylvester's mother, a Nazi hunter) might have helped bring that to public consciousness. I also want to give $ to the foundation started by the parents of the 14 yr old effeminate boy who, albeit he made an It Gets Better video, killed himself after relentless homophobic bullying in his school. Yes, I do see these things as related. The idea that only one way of being in the world is right, and that it's ok to wish or cause death on those who deviate therefrom, deliberately or by birth, is equally insidious when imposed by a regime and when imposed by a teen.
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I think Ellen has said all that needs to be said on this issue (and extremely well, I was genuinely moved). However, there is one thing I'd like to address:
YOU all think that is a fight to tell someone off when you can make it even worse then what it should be. you can get hurt in the prosses if you encounter a person who is really at Nazi themself. and are offended by your act of words.
So, the point you're making is that no one should speak out against what is causing them genuine distress because it might make the offender angry? Okay. I'll be sure to tell that to any person who is raped and tries to speak out against his or her attacker. Look out! They might not like your reaction and you could get assaulted again! It's best to just leave them alone for fear of retribution! After all, they're not committing that act toward the majority of people, and you're just overreacting! Do you really want to ruin their day like that?
AKA, that is a Class-A example of victim blaming, and it is deeply not okay.
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I think they're saying: if someone is crazy enough to walk outside wearing a swastika, then they most likely are not going to take kindly to being confronted. And may react with violence. That's a swastika they're wearin', not a peace symbol.
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I think they're saying: if someone is crazy enough to walk outside wearing a swastika, then they most likely are not going to take kindly to being confronted. And may react with violence. That's a swastika they're wearin', not a peace symbol.
^ THIS. I'm sure none of us want to see any of our fellow cosplayers/congoers get hurt. I know I don't.
I may be arguing the point for cosplayers being able to wear what they want to (regardless of whether or not it's in horribly, horribly bad taste, such as the SS uniform or a Schrodinger complete with swastika), but one of the reasons for my insistence that people shouldn't go around telling others that they are NOT ALLOWED to wear something is because many people will take offense to that. I know a few people who are stubborn in a certain way, and when they are told they aren't allowed to do something, they will do it anyway, just to spite the people who are telling them they can't.
I understand the point of those who don't want to see it, that it would cause bad memories to come up, but I think that the method in which to argue against wearing the cosplay should not include statements like "you can't, I won't allow it" and "you don't have the right". Especially if such a discussion is happening in person. While some of you may be willing to risk getting hurt in order to express your opinion to a person whose outfit you find offensive, I personally don't want to hear that one of my fellow congoers got hurt because they went about letting someone know that the outfit was offensive to them in a confrontational way, and it turned out to be a bad idea.
/end my 2 cents
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@ Jaqua: Thank you for the validation. @ Reppy, scary thought.
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I think they're saying: if someone is crazy enough to walk outside wearing a swastika, then they most likely are not going to take kindly to being confronted. And may react with violence. That's a swastika they're wearin', not a peace symbol.
^ THIS. I'm sure none of us want to see any of our fellow cosplayers/congoers get hurt. I know I don't.
I may be arguing the point for cosplayers being able to wear what they want to (regardless of whether or not it's in horribly, horribly bad taste, such as the SS uniform or a Schrodinger complete with swastika), but one of the reasons for my insistence that people shouldn't go around telling others that they are NOT ALLOWED to wear something is because many people will take offense to that. I know a few people who are stubborn in a certain way, and when they are told they aren't allowed to do something, they will do it anyway, just to spite the people who are telling them they can't.
I understand the point of those who don't want to see it, that it would cause bad memories to come up, but I think that the method in which to argue against wearing the cosplay should not include statements like "you can't, I won't allow it" and "you don't have the right". Especially if such a discussion is happening in person. While some of you may be willing to risk getting hurt in order to express your opinion to a person whose outfit you find offensive, I personally don't want to hear that one of my fellow congoers got hurt because they went about letting someone know that the outfit was offensive to them in a confrontational way, and it turned out to be a bad idea.
/end my 2 cents
wait let me clear this up. because I'm not sure if I'm understanding this properly.
You're arguing for cosplayers to wear whatever they want regardless of whether or not it offends people or triggers their PTSD, but you're saying nobody should be confrontational when dealing with said cosplayers because it might offend the cosplayer?
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I believe cosplayers can wear whatever they want, rather it's a nazi uniform or being completely nude. I don't give a ***t what they wear. BUT....
They need to realize that there are other people out there who are much more offended by it. I know quite a number of people who are HIGHLY against things like that. So those cosplayers need to be prepared to get hated by some people. Even violence can be ignited rapidly if it offends someone that bad.
Just saying, cosplayers cosplaying things that are sensitive to most people need to use some sort of common sense when doing so. <-------(My opinion. Please dont hate me... *hides*)
(***'ed inappropriate content - changing one letter isn't sufficient. ~randompvg)
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I'm arguing that cosplayers will choose what they wear regardless of what you say about it (not every cosplayer would read these forums and seek advice from fellow cosplayers, or if they do, not all of them would necessarily take that advice, especially if they're being expressly told by someone who is not staff or law enforcement that they are not allowed), and I should hope that if you choose to talk to them about it you won't say "you can't do that" or "you're not allowed" or "you have no right" (which has been said in several posts on these forums and led to a very uncivil discussion about this point already), because in offending the wrong cosplayer, it could lead to unfortunate consequences. You have the right to tell them their cosplay is offensive to you. Saying it in a confrontational or rude way is also within your rights, but might lead to an argument, or worse, to violence, and I don't want to see that happen.
@chroma: exactly
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I think they're saying: if someone is crazy enough to walk outside wearing a swastika, then they most likely are not going to take kindly to being confronted. And may react with violence. That's a swastika they're wearin', not a peace symbol.
^ THIS. I'm sure none of us want to see any of our fellow cosplayers/congoers get hurt. I know I don't.
I may be arguing the point for cosplayers being able to wear what they want to (regardless of whether or not it's in horribly, horribly bad taste, such as the SS uniform or a Schrodinger complete with swastika), but one of the reasons for my insistence that people shouldn't go around telling others that they are NOT ALLOWED to wear something is because many people will take offense to that. I know a few people who are stubborn in a certain way, and when they are told they aren't allowed to do something, they will do it anyway, just to spite the people who are telling them they can't.
I understand the point of those who don't want to see it, that it would cause bad memories to come up, but I think that the method in which to argue against wearing the cosplay should not include statements like "you can't, I won't allow it" and "you don't have the right". Especially if such a discussion is happening in person. While some of you may be willing to risk getting hurt in order to express your opinion to a person whose outfit you find offensive, I personally don't want to hear that one of my fellow congoers got hurt because they went about letting someone know that the outfit was offensive to them in a confrontational way, and it turned out to be a bad idea.
/end my 2 cents
wait let me clear this up. because I'm not sure if I'm understanding this properly.
You're arguing for cosplayers to wear whatever they want regardless of whether or not it offends people or triggers their PTSD, but you're saying nobody should be confrontational when dealing with said cosplayers because it might offend the cosplayer?
To put it a slightly different way, it's the same thing that many of the "anti-Nazis" are saying: Yes, you have the right to. But, "Just because you can doesn't mean you should."
(In the case of wearing a swastika, it's a Very Bad Idea because it's likely to offend the heck out of - or even harm - others. In this case, because it's more likely that anyone who would wear a swastika will react badly to being told it's a Very Bad Idea, also leading to offense or even harm.)
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I'm arguing that cosplayers will choose what they wear regardless of what you say about it (not every cosplayer would read these forums and seek advice from fellow cosplayers, or if they do, not all of them would necessarily take that advice, especially if they're being expressly told by someone who is not staff or law enforcement that they are not allowed), and I should hope that if you choose to talk to them about it you won't say "you can't do that" or "you're not allowed" or "you have no right" (which has been said in several posts on these forums and led to a very uncivil discussion about this point already), because in offending the wrong cosplayer, it could lead to unfortunate consequences. You have the right to tell them their cosplay is offensive to you. Saying it in a confrontational or rude way is also within your rights, but might lead to an argument, or worse, to violence, and I don't want to see that happen.
@chroma: exactly
I never said that they're not allowed to. I said that by saying it's their "right" to they're acting entitled.
one of the reasons for my insistence that people shouldn't go around telling others that they are NOT ALLOWED to wear something is because many people will take offense to that.
Dunno, I'd say that you're arguing that we shouldn't go and say that people shouldn't cosplay Nazis. You're arguing against us, when we are saying someone shouldn't cosplay a Nazi.
I feel like you're being kind of contradictory here.
randompvg, she never said "no one should cosplay a Nazi", though, and frequently said that they have the "right" to. She's never even stated the difference between "can't" and "should" when it comes to cosplaying- Just when it comes to confronting people.
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I think they're saying: if someone is crazy enough to walk outside wearing a swastika, then they most likely are not going to take kindly to being confronted. And may react with violence. That's a swastika they're wearin', not a peace symbol.
^ THIS. I'm sure none of us want to see any of our fellow cosplayers/congoers get hurt. I know I don't.
I may be arguing the point for cosplayers being able to wear what they want to (regardless of whether or not it's in horribly, horribly bad taste, such as the SS uniform or a Schrodinger complete with swastika), but one of the reasons for my insistence that people shouldn't go around telling others that they are NOT ALLOWED to wear something is because many people will take offense to that. I know a few people who are stubborn in a certain way, and when they are told they aren't allowed to do something, they will do it anyway, just to spite the people who are telling them they can't.
I understand the point of those who don't want to see it, that it would cause bad memories to come up, but I think that the method in which to argue against wearing the cosplay should not include statements like "you can't, I won't allow it" and "you don't have the right". Especially if such a discussion is happening in person. While some of you may be willing to risk getting hurt in order to express your opinion to a person whose outfit you find offensive, I personally don't want to hear that one of my fellow congoers got hurt because they went about letting someone know that the outfit was offensive to them in a confrontational way, and it turned out to be a bad idea.
/end my 2 cents
But on the other side of that coin, you're okay with people feeling real and deep personal trauma because of that person's choices? I think that the unhappiness someone wearing a swastika and being told off for it is much less than someone who has to suffer at the sight of said swastika. There are priorities here that I think are being missed.
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randompvg, she never said "no one should cosplay a Nazi", though, and frequently said that they have the "right" to. She's never even stated the difference between "can't" and "should" when it comes to cosplaying- Just when it comes to confronting people.
I should've been clearer about something, for reference: I wasn't asserting that either side is or isn't valid, just rephrasing what I believed to be a potential source of misunderstanding between the two. If I only contributed to the misunderstanding, my apologies.
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I said people have the RIGHT to cosplay whatever they want. Because they do. Whether or not they SHOULD is a different story altogether. Just as you have the right to walk up to a cosplayer wearing an SS uniform and tell them to their face that they 'can't/arent allowed to' wear the cosplay, it's pretty clear that you probably SHOULDN'T.
I never said you shouldn't tell them its offensive to you, but the way the tone of certain posts about the issue have come out on the forums so far, it's been very confrontational, which is something I definitely think should NOT be taken into a real life discussion with a cosplayer who might be wearing such a uniform.
Whether someone cosplays an SS!Uniform (from whatever country), is up to them. Whether someone chooses to talk to them about it and let them know it's offensive is up to the person in question. Whether it should be worn at all (it would be in very bad taste) is in question, and the subject of discussion here. The morality of whether someone should wear something that might be a trigger for a great many people (isn't that what we are discussing?). The right of a person to wear what they please should not be a question, because everyone has the right to wear what they will as long as they are not breaking the law. Everyone else has the right to speak vocally AGAINST the person wearing what they want to wear (free speech is a wonderful thing). What I'm worried about is that when the person wearing and the person speaking come into contact with each other, if it's not handled correctly, it could erupt in a situation that's not desirable for anyone involved.
(For instance, this discussion has already caused at least one person to lose friends and break from the fandom entirely. NOT a good outcome.)
edit: accidentally left out a word.
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Cosplay is about building community.
Cosplay is about showing a love for the world of fandom in general.
Therefore anyone creating a cosplay that they specifically know will be divisive & hurtful, is destroying the very fabric of community that justifies allowing cosplay to begin with.
The audacity, the sense of entitlement, it reeks of privilege and ignorance. It makes me feel like I am about to vomit, just to think about it.
I did see someone at con, with an arm band. I froze. I felt sick. I did not know what to do. I did not know what I was allowed to do. And I had to get to my own panel and be a panelist, so I just meditated and composed myself and reminded myself these thoughts: "The person might just be an ignorant person with entitlement issues and not a person deliberately trying to hurt other people. Just simply not caring that they of course will hurt other people." <<EDIT>> I do not know who this was. I, and they, are better off if I never find out. Anger is not helpful. I just did Tashlich to try to let go of anger. I am repeating here the meditation I had to go through just to go perform my own panel, after how upset I was seeing the rude and audacious & presumptuous & insensitive act of someone wearing a Swastika for fun. This does not mean I think whoever did it has no other worth in the world. Just....about the worst possible judgement within the cosplay context.
But neither of those should be acceptable ethics in the overall cosplay community, even if, legally, they have to be tolerated among those paying to attend the con.
I did not check, but I sure hope that person was not wearing a staff badge. Could you imagine the potential fallout if a local were offended/scared and saw the symbol of mass genocide being worn for fun **by a staffer**? As part of the Publicity Dept this year, I shudder to think.......
This does raise an interesting question. Are there different rules, or expectations, written or unwritten, legally operationalizable or not, for those who are actively acting as staff at the con, and those who aren't, vis-a-vis ethics & cosplays?
<<EDIT>> It happens that I am a fan of Max's work from way back in the earliest days of KC fanfic, & the Beta station, <3 for that.
I happen to think that there are times it is advisable, and times it is inadvisable, to take a "devil's advocate" role. (BTW: I learned from an otaku pal, who is also a priest, who gave a panel at MEW Con for us, what it really means, to be a "devil's advocate". It means to argue against the miracles being presented for canonizing a new saint.)
My perspective is of course informed by my personal and family history. But regardless of such, just look at it this way.
It is selfish for anyone to believe that their privilege to get away with wearing whatever floats their boat, is vastly more important than whether anyone would be genuinely traumatized by their wearing of it.
I am not talking about someone simply having distaste. I am not talking about someone having bigotry (like about crossplay). I am talking about genuine, takes awhile to recover, full-blown PTSD, trauma. That anyone would think "I feel like wearing something that will remind people their ancestors were murdered today" is simply unfathomable and indefensible, ethically, albeit that it could be contended for, in a court of law, or a debate.
<<EDIT>> Imagine if someone showed up at con and they were wearing a t-shirt that said "She wasn't raped. She was asking for it." Just imagine it. Would it hypothetically be protected by First Amendment rights? Maybe, but what of it? It would be deliberately antagonistic, consciously choosing to be offensive, to start fights, to retraumatize those of us (statistically known to be 1 in 4 females, 1 in 10 males---and everyone knows that rapes are underreported) who have been raped.
Would you want, say, Subway employees & noncongoing customers, seeing someone wearing a Kumoricon badge over that T-shirt? Especially a KC staff badge?
Of course not. Well, I feel the same about the swastika cosplays. The general public, the folks where you go buy your food, the Alanon folks at the Labor Day party in the park, the folks on your public transit, the hotel employees .....they have the right to not be retraumatized. Do you expect all of them to have any clue someone with a swastika is simply playing dress up?
<<EDIT>> Here's a thought that is entirely realistic. Most of us know that there are people of every gender who crossplay without it meaning that they are gay (though some may be). Many people unfamiliar with the prevalence of crossplay in otaku culture will look at guys who are crossplaying and assume they are gay. What would staff do if homophobes showed up in "G-d hates fags" tshirts at KC like they do at funerals of gay soldiers? IMHO if someone clearly were arriving in incendiary clothing just to make an obnoxious statement to make others uncomfortable, they should not be allowed to buy a badge.
How different would that be than knowingly showing up wearing a symbol of genocide?
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Sadly I cannot comment on this as a moderator anymore however I can speak on this form the standpoint of a Yojimbo at the convention.
When we receive a complaint regarding a cosplay we usually speak to the person(s) concerned and try to work out a compromise or win/win for both parties.
I understand people take offense to certian coslays and that is their right, however on the flip side of the coin the people cosplaying have woked hard to replicate a charactor.
Sadly I cannot admit to being completely neutral in this as we have taken a stand on the Pedobear front as flat out not allowed.
Alot of animes use the Nazi uniform and it is very easily replicated for cosplay thus its not something we can draw a line on.
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As with any other post where I don't speak in blue text, I'm speaking only for myself - not as a moderator or representing Kumoricon in any fashion.
A belated apology for the thread's title, the more that I think about it: "Nazi" wasn't the correct word to use. The original debate was over an SS uniform; "Nazi" was a bow to the colloquial usage.
At least as I understand it, wearing an SS uniform is not so much akin to wearing KKK robes as it is to wearing KKK robes while carrying a noose and a burning cross. The SS were the arm of the Nazi party in carrying out their worst atrocities, and it makes perfect sense that a Holocaust survivor seeing an SS uniform would very likely experience PTSD.
The best way to resolve this debate might be for anyone who considers wearing an SS uniform to read up on the history of exactly what they're representing: Look up names like Heinrich Himmler, Rudolf Höss, SS-Totenkopfverbände, and Einsatzgruppen on Wikipedia for a start. (Fair warning, it's very definitely not PG-13 material. In fact, you may be sick afterward.
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Guys I love all your oppinions I wanted to ask just to know all of this because I wanted to know both sides of it because I really don't want to hurt anyone in anyway so it's more of a right for me to cosplay something else then cosplay this personally I find all of your intresting and I can understand both sides. Thank you.
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@ Kylite, I have no idea what a Pedobear costume would look like.
@ randompvg, that is a valid comparison. But I do not think that nazis outside the SS were innocent nor that most people would know the difference. Most would be equally disgusted & disturbed by either.
I would like to know what anyone would think they are going to accomplish by dressing this way.
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At least as I understand it, wearing an SS uniform is not so much akin to wearing KKK robes as it is to wearing KKK robes while carrying a noose and a burning cross. The SS were the arm of the Nazi party in carrying out their worst atrocities, and it makes perfect sense that a Holocaust survivor seeing an SS uniform would very likely experience PTSD.
This is a point I was just going to make, thank you for saying it!
Another reason I think SS uniforms are considered "okay" is because, frankly, they've been sexualized and fetishized to a point where they almost, in the mainstream (of teenagers/young adults who aren't of the Jewish faith or ancestry), don't even represent the fear and horror they should-- they're more of a costume that represents power and domination. Usually when I hear people talking about Nazi/SS uniforms, it's because they think they're "sexy" or "hot" or something equally unsettling and nauseating. And when something evil is portrayed as being... "Sexy", I guess, it loses a lot of its original meaning.
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At least as I understand it, wearing an SS uniform is not so much akin to wearing KKK robes as it is to wearing KKK robes while carrying a noose and a burning cross. The SS were the arm of the Nazi party in carrying out their worst atrocities, and it makes perfect sense that a Holocaust survivor seeing an SS uniform would very likely experience PTSD.
This is a point I was just going to make, thank you for saying it!
Another reason I think SS uniforms are considered "okay" is because, frankly, they've been sexualized and fetishized to a point where they almost, in the mainstream (of teenagers/young adults who aren't of the Jewish faith or ancestry), don't even represent the fear and horror they should-- they're more of a costume that represents power and domination. Usually when I hear people talking about Nazi/SS uniforms, it's because they think they're "sexy" or "hot" or something equally unsettling and nauseating. And when something evil is portrayed as being... "Sexy", I guess, it loses a lot of its original meaning.
That MIGHT be akin to how some woman, even those who have been raped often have rape fantasies or desire situations where they are being dominated or controlled. Some psychologists think this has something to do with the desire to be able to control the circumstances of something that could be out of our control normally. I'm not sure how it works, but I've read statistics that say this sort of mentality is on the rise.
Maybe its a symptom of our society - we are so over sensitized that we allow ourselves to take destructive things and embody or experience them first person to satisfy some sense of control of the uncontrollable?
Maybe a bit off track - I don't know if that would be a good justification for where the garb of an organization responsible for attempted genocide...
Then again, this is the society that watches Shows like DEXTER (full disclosure; I love that show) so we are already way more effed up than is probably safe.
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what if people want to show off history people are afraid to show is what i am wondering.
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@Jacob: I feel like there are better ways to do it than... you know, dressing like a Nazi?
@Ally: That might also be a part of it. Psychology is so strange.
Maaaaaan I love the idea behind Dexter though, the whole "vigilante going out and doing the justice the law can't" thing. It's like more realistic superheroes! Which is super cool!
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I believe AllyKat put things very well on page 3. I was trying to bite my tongue for a while on this before putting my opinion into words, but that pretty much sumed the majority of my feelings up. Thank you.
I have no love for the nazi party either, but if you look deeply enough at what they represent, certain people (not willing to name names) who have been wanting to ban a cosplay just because it has a symbol on it are on the verge of being as bad as the nazi's. Some of these posts have been on the virge (if not crossing the line) of victimizing others over a cosplay that for all you know may have been designed just to start controversy. You see it in movies, books, games, etc. all the time where the director/author intended to stir up emotion or perhaps make people remember the past.
And the worst part about it, is that there is a level of hypocrisy here. I doubt the people that are spreading so much hate on this thread realize that they probably like/idolize certain characters or groups from anime or games. Sephiroth is a big example of what I am talking about and nobody complains about him despite him going on a murdering rampage. True he isn't a real person, but there are plenty of other examples that can be used of characters that were based on real people. You probably will not find anybody taking offense to a Woody from Toy Story cosplayer despite him being a cowboy and we know there were certain instances between cowboys and indians.
Again, I have no love for the nazi's, but that is no excuse for acting like them. Please keep things civil and perhaps look in the mirror first before hating what someone's skin color, country of origin, hair color, religion, clothing. Don't disrespect the people like my grandfather who died or were changed because they fought for the freedoms you are wanting to take away. You have the right to your own opinion and to voice that opinion or even to shun/stay away from that person.
Yes, PTSD is a possibility and ideally I wish this topic would never be an issue, but using it as an excuse to victimize others is no excuse.
Another sad thing is that the people that really need to read and understand this post probably will not even bother to take the time to fully understand and comprehend it because they see that I'm defending some of the worst people in our history, which I am not. I am only hoping that at least some of these people will realize they are repeating history over something like a costume.
Is it right or wrong to cosplay a Nazi? Is it right to reenact the civil war from the southern side? Is is right to cosplay your favorite villain who tries to take over/destroy the world? Use tact in your decision. Just like wearing a skimpy outfit you have the risk of being glomped or even sexually harassed, in this case there is certain risks, but in the USA we have no right to say whether or not someone can wear that cosplay or not.
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I came to post something about suppression and possibly inflammatory,
...[redacted]
BRESSLER EDIT: Please do not make drug references on the forums.
Rebuttal of edit: My point being - I think if you are offended by a fake, fake Nazi uniform, you are taking life too seriously.
If you have a serious psychological condition - the world will not conform to your needs, you should know this by now.
If you stand up for said variety of person, be a better friend and just guide them away or if the cat's out of the bag, be there for them to calm them down.
BRESSLER EDIT 2: Please take any moderation ruling disputes to PM.
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I believe AllyKat put things very well on page 3. I was trying to bite my tongue for a while on this before putting my opinion into words, but that pretty much sumed the majority of my feelings up. Thank you.
I have no love for the nazi party either, but if you look deeply enough at what they represent, certain people (not willing to name names) who have been wanting to ban a cosplay just because it has a symbol on it are on the verge of being as bad as the nazi's.
Did you just... Godwin's Law in the Nazi thread?
Not sure if trolling, so I'll just respond to the rest of your post as if you aren't.
Some of these posts have been on the virge (if not crossing the line) of victimizing others over a cosplay that for all you know may have been designed just to start controversy. You see it in movies, books, games, etc. all the time where the director/author intended to stir up emotion or perhaps make people remember the past.
I can understand the idea of an artistic endeavor, pulling the strings, questioning the human condition, all that. Except that this is definitely tread and re-tread ground. Summoning the emotional ghosts of the Nazis in a piece of art, is also very different from just dressing as a Nazi for funsies. For one thing, people can choose (mostly) whether or not they're going to submit themselves to that emotional turmoil and mashing of trauma buttons, because they know ahead of time and have the opportunity to steel themselves. If you're just making your way around and a con and suddenly Nazis, there's no consent involved. All the trauma buttons get mashed whether you watched the movies with the Nazis or not.
And the worst part about it, is that there is a level of hypocrisy here. I doubt the people that are spreading so much hate on this thread realize that they probably like/idolize certain characters or groups from anime or games. Sephiroth is a big example of what I am talking about and nobody complains about him despite him going on a murdering rampage. True he isn't a real person, but there are plenty of other examples that can be used of characters that were based on real people. You probably will not find anybody taking offense to a Woody from Toy Story cosplayer despite him being a cowboy and we know there were certain instances between cowboys and indians.
again, trolling?
Sephiroth isn't a major source of trauma for a large proportion of the world's population. There's a pretty big difference between an international symbol of hate and a video game character.
"Cowboys and Indians" is a pretty misleading phrase, since most of the people we think of as cowboys weren't the ones responsible for the displacement of the genocide and displacement of peoples. He isn't dressed as a soldier from the period, he's a rural sherriff. And even then, not even a remotely historically accurate one. Just because particular fashions coincided with a period in which the United States was committing atrocities doesn't mean everyone who wore that particular fashion was responsible for the genocide of First Nations. But you can't say that for SS uniforms.
Again, I have no love for the nazi's, but that is no excuse for acting like them. Please keep things civil and perhaps look in the mirror first before hating what someone's skin color, country of origin, hair color, religion, clothing. Don't disrespect the people like my grandfather who died or were changed because they fought for the freedoms you are wanting to take away. You have the right to your own opinion and to voice that opinion or even to shun/stay away from that person.
Godwin's Law again. This is almost meta.
Clothes aren't blameless. Symbols have power, and people who don't feel threatened or powerless in the face of those symbols don't get to tell the rest of us that they're "just clothes." No one wants to take away anyone's freedoms. No one has suggested that wearing a swastika or a Nazi uniform should be illegal. We're saying that it's morally an awful thing to do, socially a dumb thing to do, not in any way historically valuable or clever, and an act of gross disrespect for your fellow human.
Yes, PTSD is a possibility and ideally I wish this topic would never be an issue, but using it as an excuse to victimize others is no excuse.
why am I responding so seriously to a troll post
You can't wish away PTSD, and it frightens me that you're so willing to dismiss it. That's what I mean when I say "gross disrespect for your fellow human." Acknowledging that other people have trauma, triggers and painful associations means acknowledging that individuals will be hurt by people in Nazi uniforms.
In what way is telling people not to wear SS uniforms victimizing them?
I just
what
Another sad thing is that the people that really need to read and understand this post probably will not even bother to take the time to fully understand and comprehend it because they see that I'm defending some of the worst people in our history, which I am not. I am only hoping that at least some of these people will realize they are repeating history over something like a costume.
Asking people not to do something explicitly painful is not in any way the same as genocide. Seriously, Godwin's Law all around here.
Please be a troll. For my peace of mind.
Is it right or wrong to cosplay a Nazi?
I'm pretty comfortable saying that it's wrong. Because I don't want my fellow person to suffer, and I don't want to see a safe, fun space become fraught and deeply uncomfortable. Maybe you didn't read my earlier post, but another con attendee, a friend of mine, had an actual real life anxiety attack after seeing the Schrodinger cosplayer wearing the swastika.
Is it right to reenact the civil war from the southern side?
The actual war part of the Civil War doesn't reenact the crimes of slavery. It might be triggering for people who've been in combat zones, though. It's a good thing that reenactments generally happen in isolated areas, with a self-selecting group of people who can judge for themselves whether or not they'll find it traumatic. Unlike the problem of SUDDENLY NAZIS in what you assumed was just a safe, fun space.
Is is right to cosplay your favorite villain who tries to take over/destroy the world? Use tact in your decision.
Fictional villains are rarely sources of trauma for broad swathes of people. Which is personally what my problem is with Nazi cosplayers. Because they are actually causing pain to members of their own community.
Just like wearing a skimpy outfit you have the risk of being glomped or even sexually harassed, in this case there is certain risks, but in the USA we have no right to say whether or not someone can wear that cosplay or not.
Bolded portion is so victim blame-y I choked on my cereal, but we've already had the feminist thread. To keep it short, sexual harassment and glomping still happen regardless of what you're wearing, and no one "invites" that behavior through their clothes. The only people responsible for hurting others are the people who are hurting them.
From a legal standpoint, that's definitely true. That doesn't make it any less morally wrong.
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what if people want to show off history people are afraid to show is what i am wondering.
The world of Nazi Germany-era scholarship is a big one. There're journals, museums, movies, plays, musicals, TV series, books, all in a variety of languages from a variety of perspectives. Wearing an SS uniform for a Hetalia cosplay is not going to cover any new intellectual or emotional ground. What it will do is it will cause me, specifically, pain. It's going to cause Rem pain, and it's going to cause my friend who had the anxiety attack pain. That's three individual people that would be hurt without serving any sort of intellectual cause.
Of course, you still have the legal right to wear it. You just have to decide if you're willing to be that hurtful. Whether you think that your right to mess around in a costume is more important than the very real pain you're going to cause.
As always, every "you" is a general, specific only to someone who is seriously considering wearing a Nazi uniform for funsies.
edited for minor grammar durr
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100% of everything in Malaria's 2 posts above is astutely written, entirely correct, I am in 100% agreement with both of her posts. Though I would appreciate clarification on the term 'Godwin's Law', as I do not recall previously encountering it. If you choose to become a lawyer, I'd hire you :D
@ Greg, you are so off base it is astonishing and honestly barely worth my time to reply to, when Malaria has already done so so effectively and accurately. Daring to allege that that a need for a safe space free from deliberate capricious and unnecessary retraumatizing, is akin to systematically planning complete genocide of multiple groups of people, is so ridiculous as to be inexcusable. It's like comparing someone who wrote a term paper about how we should be sensitive to how Hibakusha (survivors of the bombings of Hirsohima and Nagasaki) might react, if we published a webcomic that portrayed the bombings in a humorous light, to the people who passed the orders to drop the actual bombs.
Daring to compare massive loss of 12 million bona fide human lives with the story arcs of illustrations indicating pen and ink or celluloid representations of artistic imagination is also so beyond the bounds of good taste as to really make me hope I never meet you in person. Honestly if someone is traumatized by the number of deaths in a video game, manga or anime all they have to do is choose not to partake of that particular visual again. How dare you even make the comparison?
Thank G-d for Malaria's posts so there is some logic and compassion and true direction in this thread.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law
Probably should've linked it to begin with. Sorry about that.
Haha, that'd make law school worth it.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law
Probably should've linked it to begin with. Sorry about that.
Haha, that'd make law school worth it.
Todah rabah.
And you're on. :D
L'Shana Tova U'metukah
Ok, read the link....Yes, that's exactly what occurred. Sigh. Hyperbolic is an understatement....
<<EDIT>> When there are individuals who are unsure how their actions or choices might affect others, and they proactively elect to seek input, and then, they actively contemplate said input and interpolate it into their decision-making matrix in a responsible, sensitive way, then those are individuals that I respect for taking mature and thoughtful steps.
When there are privileged immature people with entitlement issues who are deliberately inflammatory and consciously insensitive, like "screw y'all if you get hurt, I'm'a do what I want for funsies," they deserve all the ostracizing and verbal condemnation they logically bring upon themselves as their karma, and quite honestly, they will be lucky if that's all they get, especially out in the community beyond the should-be-safe haven of the con.
<<EDIT>> When I was hanging out in the anarchist punk DIY community, there were boneheads (Neo-nazi skinheads) who would come to our music festivals just to beat up anyone they looked at askance: people of color, effeminate males presumed gay, SHARPs & ARA (SkinHeads Against Racial Prejudice & members of Anti-Racist Action, another anti-Nazi punk movement). The prevalence of ACTUAL cult members/ violent crew members is particularly high in the Pacific Northwest. It is not like there haven't been deaths at the hands of self-professed Nazis since the '40s. And many of them are at the hands of teens. Moreover so are hate crimes against synagogues. I lived directly across the street from Temple Beth Israel, here in Eugene, Oregon, into which 12 armor piercing rounds were fired from semi-automatic rifles by self-identified Aryan Youth, teens from a neo-Nazi cult with members Oregon to Idaho.
So in addition to how much idiocy and insensitivity and retraumatizing accompany cosplaying a Nazi, whomever is callous enough to do it genuinely runs the risk of being mistaken for one of these bonehead teen cult members. And believe me, if you are mistaken for a violent racist thug, by the wrong person, you could end up beaten up, or worse. I've seen it happen. You don't want it to happen. No costume is worth it. No arrogant desire to prove a point about is worth it.
<<EDIT>> If you deliberately dress like someone who wants to commit mass murder -- of real people, in the real world, with adherents remaining, still, today, here, in Oregon-- , and then someone mistakes you for someone who wants to commit mass murder -- of real people, in the real world, here, today--, and responds by trying to proactively contain you, would you honestly say you blame them? If you're out on the street dressed like Sephiroth, it's obvious it's a costume. If you're out on the street dressed like a Nazi, it's not obvious it's a costume, because genuine perpetuators of modern day hate crimes and murders still dress that way to deliberately intimidate people. These are in no way whatsoever comparable costume choices, and anyone who mistakes them for such is honestly in danger of receiving the violent attacks they callously choose to pretend to endorse via their costume choices.
<<EDIT>> If the con were to undertake to expand upon the Pedobear precedent by banning swastika-based cosplays, it not only would be protecting congoers from what Malaria described as the turn the corner woah unexpected Nazi traumatizing, but it honestly would be protecting the safety of anyone arrogant enough to think it's a fun way to dress, from being mistaken for someone who really means it politically and thus would be an instant target for retaliatory violence on the street. If someone is walking around in a teddy bear fursuit I doubt people would instantly look at them on the street and say They are a threat to me, I must beat them up first. Walking around as though you're Aryan Youth or White Aryan Nations in the wrong part of town is going to get you jumped or worse.....really. I cannot emphasize this enough. There are people who would jump (by which I mean stalk, surprise and beat up) a suspected neo-Nazi skinhead on sight. There are entire anti-racist skinhead groups that deliberately go out and find the boneheads and prevent them from engaging violence, by proactively containing them. I have seen it, it is ugly, it is gang warfare, and if you really think you would be exempt from it because if someone looks closely enough, you're actually just a teen girl with money to spare, you're wrong. They won't take the time. They'll see the uniform, they'll see the swastika, they'll be triggered, you could get boot partied. That's where a gang of people hold you down on the ground and take turns stomping on you, especially on your uniform and your face, with their Doc Maartens or other steel-toed boots. I have seen the aftermath. I have nursed back to health someone who was boot partied for being a hippie who was perceived to be in the way of a skinhead gang. I am genuinely afraid for anyone who would cosplay a Nazi, that this could happen to them. And I am genuinely afraid for the con, for the inevitable liability lawsuit that would enuse, if this happened to a congoer on their way to or from con. Trust me that this is not me being hyperbolic. I am erring on the conservative side here by refraining from giving the exact details of everything I've seen happen to actual and presumed boneheads.
<<EDIT>> It would take years for the con to recover, if ever, if something like that were to happen. I am not exaggerating.
BTW as to the Civil War Re-enactment comparison. Totally not a valid comparison. Because when someone makes the choice to attend a re-enactment, they know exactly what they are going to get. They know what sides will be portrayed, they know the outcome, it is like a very elaborately costumed LARP with an emphasis on historicity. Anyone choosing to attend such knows precisely that there will be people costumed as side A & side B of whatever war scenario is being re-enacted, AND they know that those attending are not actually modern-day proponents of whatever the 'bad guy' in the role-play scenario is. That would be like assuming that everyone in the Camarilla really drains people for their blood after game.
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I said people have the RIGHT to cosplay whatever they want. Because they do. Whether or not they SHOULD is a different story altogether. Just as you have the right to walk up to a cosplayer wearing an SS uniform and tell them to their face that they 'can't/arent allowed to' wear the cosplay, it's pretty clear that you probably SHOULDN'T.
I never said you shouldn't tell them its offensive to you, but the way the tone of certain posts about the issue have come out on the forums so far, it's been very confrontational, which is something I definitely think should NOT be taken into a real life discussion with a cosplayer who might be wearing such a uniform.
Whether someone cosplays an SS!Uniform (from whatever country), is up to them. Whether someone chooses to talk to them about it and let them know it's offensive is up to the person in question. Whether it should be worn at all (it would be in very bad taste) is in question, and the subject of discussion here. The morality of whether someone should wear something that might be a trigger for a great many people (isn't that what we are discussing?). The right of a person to wear what they please should not be a question, because everyone has the right to wear what they will as long as they are not breaking the law. Everyone else has the right to speak vocally AGAINST the person wearing what they want to wear (free speech is a wonderful thing). What I'm worried about is that when the person wearing and the person speaking come into contact with each other, if it's not handled correctly, it could erupt in a situation that's not desirable for anyone involved.
(For instance, this discussion has already caused at least one person to lose friends and break from the fandom entirely. NOT a good outcome.)
edit: accidentally left out a word.
Except that isn't what you've been discussing at all this entire discussion. . You've just been saying that we choose to be offended and that we shouldn't offend people who are offending us.
Everything Ellen said about privilege and entitlement was just +1000. I really don't understand why people think it's okay to say "it's just clothing!" when it's so, so much more than that. Even if you are privileged, not everyone in a privileged group has to be a PDD.
You wanna cause people pain, real emotional pain just because you have the 'right' to wear a Nazi uniform? Well, that says a lot about you as a person.
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I said people have the RIGHT to cosplay whatever they want. Because they do. Whether or not they SHOULD is a different story altogether. Just as you have the right to walk up to a cosplayer wearing an SS uniform and tell them to their face that they 'can't/arent allowed to' wear the cosplay, it's pretty clear that you probably SHOULDN'T.
I never said you shouldn't tell them its offensive to you, but the way the tone of certain posts about the issue have come out on the forums so far, it's been very confrontational, which is something I definitely think should NOT be taken into a real life discussion with a cosplayer who might be wearing such a uniform.
Whether someone cosplays an SS!Uniform (from whatever country), is up to them. Whether someone chooses to talk to them about it and let them know it's offensive is up to the person in question. Whether it should be worn at all (it would be in very bad taste) is in question, and the subject of discussion here. The morality of whether someone should wear something that might be a trigger for a great many people (isn't that what we are discussing?). The right of a person to wear what they please should not be a question, because everyone has the right to wear what they will as long as they are not breaking the law. Everyone else has the right to speak vocally AGAINST the person wearing what they want to wear (free speech is a wonderful thing). What I'm worried about is that when the person wearing and the person speaking come into contact with each other, if it's not handled correctly, it could erupt in a situation that's not desirable for anyone involved.
(For instance, this discussion has already caused at least one person to lose friends and break from the fandom entirely. NOT a good outcome.)
edit: accidentally left out a word.
Except that isn't what you've been discussing at all this entire discussion. . You've just been saying that we choose to be offended and that we shouldn't offend people who are offending us.
Everything Ellen said about privilege and entitlement was just +1000. I really don't understand why people think it's okay to say "it's just clothing!" when it's so, so much more than that. Even if you are privileged, not everyone in a privileged group has to be a PDD.
You wanna cause people pain, real emotional pain just because you have the 'right' to wear a Nazi uniform? Well, that says a lot about you as a person.
Thank you, MiriaRose, for the validation.
I 100% agree with your affirmations, as well.
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I remember at one point I told Ellen that I had "said what I felt needed to be said, and wasn't planning to post here again". Apparently now that needs to change. Remember what I and the moderators/admins have said about "being civil" and "avoiding slinging out personal attacks"?
All I have to say on the subject is PLEASE try to stay civil when posting. As for the way you take my previous posts, that's up to you (all of you, in general), but I know some of you (edited so I'm not naming names) seem to be determined to read the worst into anything I (or anyone on the opposite side of this debate from you) have to say, so I will refrain from trying to convince you further. What I have already said still stands. Think of me as you will.
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LAST WARNING. Stop speculating about other people's motives.
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I remember at one point I told Ellen that I had "said what I felt needed to be said, and wasn't planning to post here again". Apparently now that needs to change. Remember what I and the moderators/admins have said about "being civil" and "avoiding slinging out personal attacks"?
Except the "you" at the end of the post wasn't referring to you in particular- I figured that that was obvious; I suppose not. At that point I'd moved on. Aside from that, I was being civil and avoiding personal attacks. I simply didn't want to go back a few pages to fish out Ellen's post on privilege and entitlement. Also, I'd been gone all weekend and hadn't gotten to that post yet.
All I have to say on the subject is PLEASE try to stay civil when posting. As for the way you take my previous posts, that's up to you (all of you, in general), but I know some of you (edited so I'm not naming names) seem to be determined to read the worst into anything I (or anyone on the opposite side of this debate from you) have to say, so I will refrain from trying to convince you further. What I have already said still stands. Think of me as you will.
Dunno about you, but I've been remaining civil this entire time. I've avoided anything that'd have me lose speaker points in a debate. As for Titus' decision to leave the fandom, that's really just her- She'd decided to leave the thread three times before if I recall correctly.
I'm not sure why you think I'm trying to read the worst into anything. If you want to say something, say it- Just be aware that how you say it matters a lot and can change your meaning entirely, and that I hold you responsible for how you say it.
And those 'you's are not a second-person singular but a second-person plural, btw, before I am warned for personal attacks. English really does need a second-person plural that is not regional. I feel silly whenever I say "y'all", as I am not a Texan.
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...does anybody else think that this subject needs to be dropped altogether? I think this one needs to end. All that we're doing is making each other mad, and it's starting to reach a point of ridiculous repetition. Can we please cease the insanity?
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...does anybody else think that this subject needs to be dropped altogether? I think this one needs to end. All that we're doing is making each other mad, and it's starting to reach a point of ridiculous repetition. Can we please cease the insanity?
Except people still don't understand. Your post is just proof that it still needs to be talked about.
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...does anybody else think that this subject needs to be dropped altogether? I think this one needs to end. All that we're doing is making each other mad, and it's starting to reach a point of ridiculous repetition. Can we please cease the insanity?
Except people still don't understand. Your post is just proof that it still needs to be talked about.
As much as this is true, the sad thing is.... People will ALL WAYS cosplay nazis, anime/video game related or not. You can tell people over and over and over again. But they will not listen. so will, but not all. So as much as I think trying to tell people this isnt a good idea... In the end its fruitless guys. I am not gonna side with any one here. But I hate seeing you all waste your energy on something that will not be changed 100%
Not saying it CAN'T be changed a bit, because it can. But there will all ways be the one person who still does it.
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This topic is in danger of being locked. Neither of the two parties have made any progress and since it is a moral/ethical debate there is unlikely to be any ground made in convincing one or the other of your opinion. Beliefs and proofs have been stated, its up to each person to decide how they will respond to it and what they will take from it.
I recommend we all agree that some people will never agree with what any of us say and you cannot change that in a forum post. Either let the thread rest naturally or continue to degrade into mud slinging and personal attacks and keep getting mod involvement.
Or find a third option I can't see. But right now I haven't seen much new argumentation or any philosophical insight on either side in awhile, and no one gets anywhere yelling their face blue at people who wont agree/change their minds.
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I pretty much feel like I've said all I need to in this thread. Except that in relation to the post about potentially locking, I don't think it's as simple as only being two sides. I see multiple vantage points:
(1) Costume should be encouraged due to free speech.
(2) Costume should be permitted, due to free speech, but discouraged.
(3) Costume should be discouraged, but only by other fans.
(4) Costume should be discouraged, but not formally banned, by the con itself.
(5) Costume should be outright banned, as inflammatory and traumatizing, by the con itself.
(6) Costume should be outright banned, by the con itself, not only for the safety of those traumatized by viewing it, but also for the safety of those who would dare to wear it on public streets, run the risk of being mistaken for actual, bona fide, present day neo-Nazis and thereby likely be subjected to violence by anti-racists.
(7) Costume is beside the point; arrogance, entitlement, selfishness, as to how one's choices affect others, is the real issue.
I don't see there being only two camps nor only two possible outcomes, so that is my clarifying response to Ally's post.
I also would not object if the thread were locked, though I am not personally calling for such.
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While I would love to defend my own post and clear up certain meanings, it is clear to me that it would make no difference in this case where they just want [deleted by moderator] over a costume that someone has already decided not to wear. Some of these posts have already caused my own PTSD from my past to flare up very badly (even before my post) and my heart cannot take this hate anymore so I will be trying to ignore the thread from now on and it took a lot of courage to even post this.
I pray the [deleted by moderator] will stop despite the excuses people are coming up with to justify it. Ultimately that was the whole goal of my post. I love you all despite all that has been said. I am also very grateful that this had had limited spill over to the other threads from what I can tell and hope it can be contained here.
>.< This whole situation was like watching Death Note all over again... I hate being a Libra sometimes...
Edit before posting: AllyKat, I had this message typed up before you posted Please delete this post if I crossed that line. My heart is too saddened right now to be able to tell whether I have or not. I personally would not mind one bit if the thread were to be locked, but there is the chance that some of these issues might be unresolved and come back later.
Enough with the hyperbole, insinuations, and accusations. Period. ~randompvg
(From anyone.)
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The deliberate choice of diction such as accusing people who want to a safe space free from intimidation, of being the ones who [deleted by moderator], is not only so far from true, but in such bad taste, and so manipulative, that I'm genuinely unable see the rest of the post as genuine.
If it is genuine, then the regrettable fact that anyone ever wanted to dress this way ended up also inadvertently negatively impacting you.
I've seen all of 5 minutes of Hetalia, btw. It seemed like pure crack to me. When I first heard the concept of anthropomorphizing countries as people, I was intrigued. When I read the fanfic that was given a couple awards last year, an adorable parody with a male/male pairing of America and Stephen Colbert, the concept of the show became endeared to me. I chose to never watch a full ep because I wasn't sure I personally was in a space of wanting to potentially be lead to view as funny, the circumstances around WWII, nor have the politics underlying it, potentially reduced to, e.g., being portrayed as juvenile games or rivalries. These were possibilities I speculated about, and I really just didn't have the time to look into whether or not there were any cause for concern within the show itself. If there is a subculture that embraces the show, that feels that the show itself would make characters that are sympathetic, sexy, or otherwise desirable to cosplay, that, oh, incidentally are Nazis, then I really should watch some of the show to be able to talk about it in our Religion in Anime & Manga panel next year.
Other than that, and than mutual support amongst MiriaRose & Malaria & Jaqua & me in the thread (and personally some related chat with Max in PM), I don't know what other good will have come from this thread. But I will tell you this much. If even one human being has been dissuaded from cosplaying a Nazi -- whether by the strength of any of the logical points enunciated here, or for logical concern that to do so might result in ostracism in the con community or violence outside it-- then the thread was worth it, not only for helping that one person to grow, but also for protecting anyone that person could accidentally (G-d forbid, deliberately) have retraumatized.
Hoping not to have to post again,
a very tired Rem.
(Removing content quoted from another post ~randompvg)
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Topic locked for the night. The mods will decide in the morning whether it gets re-opened.
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The mod team feels this topic needs to stay locked.