Twilight was written with incompetence and a lack of literary understanding.

[dshwshr55]

Don't forget Twitter, plagues, and HP computers.

[DancingTofu]

Well, you got me there. The only reason I was somewhat defending the thread was because I like stir up controversy everywhere I go. I'm sure there is at least ONE Twilight thread that this whole thing would better fit under, if you consider the name of this topic. If the subject matter got more on track with the literary point of view and standards of literacy relating specifically to the books (which is what I get from the title), would the thread stay open?

Probably, though I don't see it really going that far.  Another problem with this topic is that it's presented as a statement, not a discussion, so it's kind of destined to fail.

I would be very happy if I never again saw a thread here regarding bi-partisan politics, established religion, sexism, Twitter, retroviruses, or Twilight ever again.

I'm not sure what forest creatures Tom is referring too, but you can be certain I won't get any sleep tonight because of it.

[dshwshr55]

I was thinking sasquatch at first, but they CLEARLY don't live in the forest.
Haha, you see how far off topic it's already gotten?
I think this was the plan all along to kill it. Liberation again, thanks to Tom, Tofu, and dsh being up at 4 a.m.! XD

[TomtheFanboy]

OK, not sasquatch. NO, do not think about that!

Here's a hint, the name is half oslapedo and half teddy bear.

[Higuma]

Every one Here should just read a good book. Across the Nightingale Floor by Lian Hearn. I have read this series 4 times and I am not a big reader.

[AllyKat]

Now that I am awake I'm going to attempt to add conjecture to your
points (Sorry Tofu, but this debate is to intersting to quit!)

I'm biased against the story in that I really dislike romance novels. Twilight follows a format of romance writing I find degrading, which probably is why I originally began to dislike it.

That is respectable, and honestly I think I got that from your
earlier refutations. I am sure you had a good reason for buying Twilight
but personally it sounds to me like you knew in advance that you didn't
like this type of book... So the point here is moot. There are probably genre's
you enjoy that I find degrading and frivolous, though I can't say I have found
a type of book I haven't found at least slightly engaging... But I am a book
worm in the worst way. I'll read pretty much anything, but for you to at
least understand that this style of writing grades on you is great. I hope you
are able to use that knowledge to not have to succumb yourself to any books
like it in the future.

I honestly wouldn't be able to read long posts if I didn't break them all up into tiny parts and refute them. xD I tend to TL;DR.

Yeah... it's a disease... I have wallotextinitis... it's terminal.

Actually, this debate cheered me up and didn't waste my time at all, and debates aren't all about winning. Goodnight, though. ^^

Well thats good! I wasn't upset either, just a bit sleepy, and I
don't debate well sleepy! I agree that debate isn't always about
winning, sometimes it's about honing your skills and also flexing your
intellectual muscles. Not to mention good debates can make great
friendships! ^_^

Yes, but if you take away the fantastic parts of it, you can insert the plot into other genres and settings.

Yes you can, but not quite as well as it fits here. However I think
both of our main points on this one is that the story is abnormal in
many ways... but this doesn't have to be a bad thing...

The plot of the first book seems to be that Edward and Bella fall in love. James and his buddies don't show up until the end, which makes it seem like an afterthought.

Is there anything wrong with that? Why can't the game of romance and
the thrill of the chase of true love be a good story? James and his coven
are always in the background of the story, we just don't have a name for
them until the end of the book. It's not an afterthought... it's a way to
draw in an audience and make a series out of what could have been a
single book. Which is neither a crime nor a great joy to me. It just is.

However, that is no reason to get overly jealous about him.

I still don't see where this is coming from. You have to know,
from reading the books that Edward is always pained about leaving
Bella like he did. And he can read Jacob's thoughts, and jacob is a
red blooded American boy with hormones. How would you feel if you
knew how people thought and what people thought about the people
you loved and put on a pedastal? It would make you sick! But in Edwards
case it causes inner turmoil because he believes he is dangerous and
wrong for bella and that Jacob is right. And while he loves her and
wants to be with her, he feels selfish and guilty about it... which
causes him to become bitter about a friend like Jacob. And don't
forget that jealousy is nothing new, every guy friend of a girl has to
deal with the boyfriend jealousy, extenuating circumstances baring,
it normally always has some form of tension.

It's not so much the fantasy as it is how messed-up their relationship is.

*shrugs* Messed Up? Great? All how you view it. I kinda see
their relationship as a flawed and real showing of how two people
with problems can come together and, over a lot of struggles,
help eachother exists in a world that doesn't quite fit them.

The problem is how blatant it happens. I wouldn't care if it was a love-at-first-sight thing if it didn't seem like Bella's love for Edward is only because he's good-looking and rich.

I have to seriously pull the breaks on this one. Bella liking him
because he is RICH? When was THIS ever stated? I'd really need you
to quote me a portion where his money ever made her anything but
uncomfortable, stressed and feel smaller than she already felt. She
adored him for everything BUT his money. Infact, it was constantly
a thing of tension between them as she was used to, and happy with
her less frivolous lifestyle (She drives a 1950 P.O.S. for peats sake!)
and Edward constantly tries to dote on her in ways that stress her and
make her feel unworthy of his love, which later then reconcile as his
inability to know how to show her how much he adores her in another
way that by giving her everything he THINKS she wants (he can't read
her mind remember) So he's constantly trying to dote on her... and
failing about as much as any normal guy... ^_^

Again, my problem is because they seem to be devoted to each other all throughout the relationship, even when they first meet.

Actually, the book very clearly describes Edward as confused and intruiged,
not in love, when he firsts sees her. Read Midnight Sun to really get a feel for
just how striking Bella is, and how confused and lonely and awkward Edward is.
He doesn't want to be around her because it is painful, but it is that pain and
the spark of intruige that he can't read her mind that draws them together,
and ultimately allows them to converse and find out that they are kindred spirits
in their outcasted life-style, never feeling like they fit in.

Her constant gushing about Edward's copper brass whatever coloured hair and his beautiful eyes in addition to no common interests between them made it seem as if she only cared about his good looks.

It's a book. Without getting frustrated how else is the author supposed
to describe and help us visualize one of her main characters. The story
is in bella's view, so we see her marvel over Edward in her own way... and
while she does constantly find amazement in his beauty, his talents as a pianist,
a problem solver, and as a understanding pillar in her constantly hectic life
are also admired. She admires him for wanting her... even though she doesn't
feel she deserves such a generous and caring guy, and throughout it all he is
amazed at how easily she takes all the unnatural things in her life... another
draw for him.

Or they just really want each other, and it wouldn't be the same if it were another person. How many men do you know who are made of ice?

This statement almost makes it sound like you don't believe attraction
to be an important part of a relationship. I know you do, and if you
don't I'm sorry... because love should be a complete package; mental
physical, spiritual, emotional and philisophical. To disconect from one
leaves you in jeapordy of disconecting yourself from your partner. While
I agree with you that I know they'd find it not the same with another
person (it clearly stipulates that in both books) I think your reasoning
behind their connection is different than mine. Honestly, why would anyone
want to be with a man made of ice? That makes no sense... but for
some reason she does want to hold me and love him... she disregards
the trials and the hurtles... and continues to love him even after he hurts
her. He in turn continues to love her even though just being around her
makes him want to do the one thing he promised he'd never do... (kill
another human)

It is, but that doesn't mean you can't identify with them.

However, the area you are saying people would Identify them doesn't
resonate with me, so I can't really speculate as to how it'd be viewed
by another in a positive light. I differentiate from the fantastical parts
of their relationship and the realstic bits, which admittedly are few and far
between, none-the-less they are present and have a great message to
give me... but thats me, and not you, and I respect that. I just don't
see what the big fuss is about proclaiming Twilight bad fiction when that
is a personal opinion, not a fact of matter.

But they don't have anything to talk about aside from how much they love each other. If two people are exactly alike, the relationship wouldn't work out.

I'm sure there are studies to support this, but I haven't seen them, and while fiction
should be based loosely on truth I can't find a reason why you can't write a story
where the people have similar interests and it does work out. It is fantasy after all.
You could say the same thing about the relationship between Cinderella and Prince
Charming. However, the point is not HOW or WHY they fall in love, because in the end
that is not going to keep you together. What will keep you together is how much you
are willing to sacrifice, how much you are willing to fight for your relationship and what
you feel for the person. At least, in this story... Give me a story like Wuthering Heights
and I'll show you a couple that was held together by the why, and transcended the
need to be attracted to eachother first... all the devotion really came later.

I'm still not convinced they love each other, but meh.

Thats okay, It feels like you may have a previous bias towards romance novels or
young adult moosh stories anyway. Which begs me to ask why you really wanted to read
Twilight. Without questioning your motive, its okay to not be convinced, as that gives
you an interesting position in that you view the books from Jacobs perspective, which
I personally think is kinda cool, however you never really get to the point where he
also conceeds that things are gonna be alright, and that neither he nor anyone else
has control over how they feel... they just do.

I'm simply restating what the text says.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, because while I have tried to rack my brain
for instances of which you speak, The only ones I ever seem to find make me feel
as though you skimmed the book, simply read the cliff notes or only read them knowing
you would hate them and therefore took situations out of context due to your pre-
concieved bias and notion that it was a bad book. Or you are falsifying points to make
your claim. Since I doubt ANY of these is the truth (Maybe the one about not liking it
so you see negatives without getting the underlying references? That might be kinda
true, but not a bad thing really...) I will surmise that I just don't have as strong a grasp
on the story as you do. However, in all of the 7 times I have read all 4 of the books, I
personally feel I've never found Edward or Bella or Jacob to do anything without cause
or that wasn't in the spirit of the overall theme which is "Sometimes, love doesn't make
sense, but if you fight for what you know is right, you can be more than just what you
are, you can be what you choose to be."

I couldn't agree more.

See! I knew there was something we can agree on! Over fandom = bad times!

~Allykat

[superjaz]

Okay so here is my 3 cents

Twilight may or may not have literary understanding, don't know haven't read it, All I can go with is what I have heard on the subject from an expert (yes I am calling stephen king an expert on writting, his book, "On Writting" is a valuble tool on the subject)

so it doesn't have that literary stuff, who cares?
 if you read it and enjoy it power to you

I have read my fair share of books that I know have the literary value of book junk food
 a soda and a bag of chip, vs say a home cooked meal, sure the meal is a meal but who doesn't like junk food ?

Now on a personal level, some twilight fans, like any other fandom, can be really annoying
(insert goth kids vs twilight kids episode of south park) My co workers were suddenly really into twilight and were suddenly all knowing when it came to vampires, these were the same peeps who snickerd when I meantioned a sookie stack house book, or anything about any other fandom, And I am in my head "I have been reading vampire books before you were BORN"

One coworker is always annoyed when she finds out a movie is based on a book, she is like  "Is EVERYTHING based on a book?!"
0.o

[dshwshr55]

.. erm ..... I don't like junk food ....
Just for the record ..... okaayyy, next post please ^^;;

[DemonSpawn]

Lol, my english teacher likes Twilight.

[MiriaRose]

If you don't want to hear anymore on this thread, you don't have to keep coming back to it, because I'm sure there's going to be more close-minded opinions and rebutals to come. I don't think I've ever once seen an arguement end something like, "Oh, I didn't think of it in those terms before. I guess you're right!"

I've actually had a debate like that before.

We were debating over why Napoleon caused WWII.

[MiriaRose]

Sorry for the double post, but I felt the need to post this.

Now that I am awake I'm going to attempt to add conjecture to your
points (Sorry Tofu, but this debate is to intersting to quit!)

Agreed. The mods let the debate on the presidential election stay open for months, didn't they?

I'm biased against the story in that I really dislike romance novels. Twilight follows a format of romance writing I find degrading, which probably is why I originally began to dislike it.

That is respectable, and honestly I think I got that from your
earlier refutations. I am sure you had a good reason for buying Twilight
but personally it sounds to me like you knew in advance that you didn't
like this type of book... So the point here is moot. There are probably genre's
you enjoy that I find degrading and frivolous, though I can't say I have found
a type of book I haven't found at least slightly engaging... But I am a book
worm in the worst way. I'll read pretty much anything, but for you to at
least understand that this style of writing grades on you is great. I hope you
are able to use that knowledge to not have to succumb yourself to any books
like it in the future.

I picked up Twilight thinking it had a pretty cover when I was in 7th grade. I hadn't read many romance novels then, so I didn't know how much I would dislike it.

I honestly wouldn't be able to read long posts if I didn't break them all up into tiny parts and refute them. xD I tend to TL;DR.

Yeah... it's a disease... I have wallotextinitis... it's terminal.

xD Nice.

Actually, this debate cheered me up and didn't waste my time at all, and debates aren't all about winning. Goodnight, though. ^^

Well thats good! I wasn't upset either, just a bit sleepy, and I
don't debate well sleepy! I agree that debate isn't always about
winning, sometimes it's about honing your skills and also flexing your
intellectual muscles. Not to mention good debates can make great
friendships! ^_^

They really can. ^^

Yes, but if you take away the fantastic parts of it, you can insert the plot into other genres and settings.

Yes you can, but not quite as well as it fits here. However I think
both of our main points on this one is that the story is abnormal in
many ways... but this doesn't have to be a bad thing...

I don't think that the story is abnormal at all, really. It reminds me of fanfiction.

The plot of the first book seems to be that Edward and Bella fall in love. James and his buddies don't show up until the end, which makes it seem like an afterthought.

Is there anything wrong with that? Why can't the game of romance and
the thrill of the chase of true love be a good story? James and his coven
are always in the background of the story, we just don't have a name for
them until the end of the book. It's not an afterthought... it's a way to
draw in an audience and make a series out of what could have been a
single book. Which is neither a crime nor a great joy to me. It just is.

Except there is no chase. Bella falls for Edward instantly and vice versa.

However, that is no reason to get overly jealous about him.

I still don't see where this is coming from. You have to know,
from reading the books that Edward is always pained about leaving
Bella like he did. And he can read Jacob's thoughts, and jacob is a
red blooded American boy with hormones. How would you feel if you
knew how people thought and what people thought about the people
you loved and put on a pedastal? It would make you sick! But in Edwards
case it causes inner turmoil because he believes he is dangerous and
wrong for bella and that Jacob is right. And while he loves her and
wants to be with her, he feels selfish and guilty about it... which
causes him to become bitter about a friend like Jacob. And don't
forget that jealousy is nothing new, every guy friend of a girl has to
deal with the boyfriend jealousy, extenuating circumstances baring,
it normally always has some form of tension.

Alright, I understand that. However, being jealous is no reason to do the creepy things he does, but we've already gone over that.

It's not so much the fantasy as it is how messed-up their relationship is.

*shrugs* Messed Up? Great? All how you view it. I kinda see
their relationship as a flawed and real showing of how two people
with problems can come together and, over a lot of struggles,
help eachother exists in a world that doesn't quite fit them.

We all have different opinions, I suppose.

The problem is how blatant it happens. I wouldn't care if it was a love-at-first-sight thing if it didn't seem like Bella's love for Edward is only because he's good-looking and rich.

I have to seriously pull the breaks on this one. Bella liking him
because he is RICH? When was THIS ever stated? I'd really need you
to quote me a portion where his money ever made her anything but
uncomfortable, stressed and feel smaller than she already felt. She
adored him for everything BUT his money. Infact, it was constantly
a thing of tension between them as she was used to, and happy with
her less frivolous lifestyle (She drives a 1950 P.O.S. for peats sake!)
and Edward constantly tries to dote on her in ways that stress her and
make her feel unworthy of his love, which later then reconcile as his
inability to know how to show her how much he adores her in another
way that by giving her everything he THINKS she wants (he can't read
her mind remember) So he's constantly trying to dote on her... and
failing about as much as any normal guy... ^_^

Alright, the rich thing was going too far. However, it seems that Bella only cares about special, unhuman people- If you're normal, she doesn't care about you and calls you a nerd or something to that extent, like she did with Eric and Mike.

Again, my problem is because they seem to be devoted to each other all throughout the relationship, even when they first meet.

Actually, the book very clearly describes Edward as confused and intruiged,
not in love, when he firsts sees her. Read Midnight Sun to really get a feel for
just how striking Bella is, and how confused and lonely and awkward Edward is.
He doesn't want to be around her because it is painful, but it is that pain and
the spark of intruige that he can't read her mind that draws them together,
and ultimately allows them to converse and find out that they are kindred spirits
in their outcasted life-style, never feeling like they fit in.

I really do need to get around to reading Midnight Sun, I suppose, so I can come up with a rebuttal to that. xD

Her constant gushing about Edward's copper brass whatever coloured hair and his beautiful eyes in addition to no common interests between them made it seem as if she only cared about his good looks.

It's a book. Without getting frustrated how else is the author supposed
to describe and help us visualize one of her main characters. The story
is in bella's view, so we see her marvel over Edward in her own way... and
while she does constantly find amazement in his beauty, his talents as a pianist,
a problem solver, and as a understanding pillar in her constantly hectic life
are also admired. She admires him for wanting her... even though she doesn't
feel she deserves such a generous and caring guy, and throughout it all he is
amazed at how easily she takes all the unnatural things in her life... another
draw for him.

But, although she admires him, they don't seem to have common interests.

Or they just really want each other, and it wouldn't be the same if it were another person. How many men do you know who are made of ice?

This statement almost makes it sound like you don't believe attraction
to be an important part of a relationship. I know you do, and if you
don't I'm sorry... because love should be a complete package; mental
physical, spiritual, emotional and philisophical. To disconect from one
leaves you in jeapordy of disconecting yourself from your partner. While
I agree with you that I know they'd find it not the same with another
person (it clearly stipulates that in both books) I think your reasoning
behind their connection is different than mine. Honestly, why would anyone
want to be with a man made of ice? That makes no sense... but for
some reason she does want to hold me and love him... she disregards
the trials and the hurtles... and continues to love him even after he hurts
her. He in turn continues to love her even though just being around her
makes him want to do the one thing he promised he'd never do... (kill
another human)

Actually, I do believe attraction to be an important part of a relationship- It's just that it seems like that's all their relationship is based upon. The person made of ice thing was kind of a joke, what I meant was that it simply wouldn't be the same.

It is, but that doesn't mean you can't identify with them.

However, the area you are saying people would Identify them doesn't
resonate with me, so I can't really speculate as to how it'd be viewed
by another in a positive light. I differentiate from the fantastical parts
of their relationship and the realstic bits, which admittedly are few and far
between, none-the-less they are present and have a great message to
give me... but thats me, and not you, and I respect that. I just don't
see what the big fuss is about proclaiming Twilight bad fiction when that
is a personal opinion, not a fact of matter.

Meyer has said that she left the original description of Bella open so that readers could identify with her more. Her cardboard personality seems to add to this.

But they don't have anything to talk about aside from how much they love each other. If two people are exactly alike, the relationship wouldn't work out.

I'm sure there are studies to support this, but I haven't seen them, and while fiction should be based loosely on truth I can't find a reason why you can't write a story where the people have similar interests and it does work out. It is fantasy after all. You could say the same thing about the relationship between Cinderella and Prince Charming. However, the point is not HOW or WHY they fall in love, because in the end that is not going to keep you together. What will keep you together is how much you are willing to sacrifice, how much you are willing to fight for your relationship and what you feel for the person. At least, in this story... Give me a story like Wuthering Heights and I'll show you a couple that was held together by the why, and transcended the need to be attracted to eachother first... all the devotion really came later.

I fail to see the similar interests for one thing, hence that post. I meant that if two people have the same personality, it would be a bit harder to work out. I recall a teacher asking our class once: "Would you want to be with yourself?"

I'm still not convinced they love each other, but meh.

Thats okay, It feels like you may have a previous bias towards romance novels or
young adult moosh stories anyway. Which begs me to ask why you really wanted to read
Twilight. Without questioning your motive, its okay to not be convinced, as that gives
you an interesting position in that you view the books from Jacobs perspective, which
I personally think is kinda cool, however you never really get to the point where he
also conceeds that things are gonna be alright, and that neither he nor anyone else
has control over how they feel... they just do.

I felt that Jacob had been gone for good when he said that.

I'm simply restating what the text says.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, because while I have tried to rack my brain
for instances of which you speak, The only ones I ever seem to find make me feel
as though you skimmed the book, simply read the cliff notes or only read them knowing
you would hate them and therefore took situations out of context due to your pre-
concieved bias and notion that it was a bad book. Or you are falsifying points to make
your claim. Since I doubt ANY of these is the truth (Maybe the one about not liking it
so you see negatives without getting the underlying references? That might be kinda
true, but not a bad thing really...) I will surmise that I just don't have as strong a grasp
on the story as you do. However, in all of the 7 times I have read all 4 of the books, I
personally feel I've never found Edward or Bella or Jacob to do anything without cause
or that wasn't in the spirit of the overall theme which is "Sometimes, love doesn't make
sense, but if you fight for what you know is right, you can be more than just what you
are, you can be what you choose to be."

I've read the books several times. They don't do anything without cause, but they do go to the extreme on their actions.

I couldn't agree more.

See! I knew there was something we can agree on! Over fandom = bad times!

~Allykat

[/quote]
Uh huh!

[princessmoon]

Holy Moly, I am too old to grasp this! ~

I simply don't get the Twilight, "phenomenon"

and the word phenomenon looks really weird right now.

[TomtheFanboy]

I simply don't get the Twilight, "phenomenon"

Doot dooooo doo-doo doot!

[makichan]

I'm upset that it beat Batman in the box-office... with that and The Jeff Dunham show making #1 on Comedy Central's charts I've lost hope in all humanity.
It's just painful.

[superjaz]

.. erm ..... I don't like junk food ....
Just for the record ..... okaayyy, next post please ^^;;

book junk food or junk food junk food or both?

now me I don't think I could live with out chocolate

[AllyKat]

I picked up Twilight thinking it had a pretty cover when I was in 7th grade. I hadn't read many romance novels then, so I didn't know how much I would dislike it.

Well congrats! I think you probably read it just a year or so after me (Ironically I
heard about the book on another LDS author's website, Hatrackriver and purchased
it very soon after... but I still prefer OSC to any other author!) And I'm glad you were
able to find out at a young age that you do not prefer these types of books, it'll save
you from buying duds in the future! I suppose the old saying holds true then yes? Don't
judge a book buy it's cover? But then again, I've found a great interesting many novels
that way... I digress...

Alright, the rich thing was going too far. However, it seems that Bella only cares about special, unhuman people- If you're normal, she doesn't care about you and calls you a nerd or something to that extent, like she did with Eric and Mike.

Well to be honest, I don't like people like Eric and Mike either,
which is why I might connect with bella on that. But in her situation
they'd probably end up being the friends I'd have. They are just too jubulant
and impulsive, which for someone who is constantly called an old soul (mother,
father, edward, carlisle, alice, jacob and jessica all call her this at one point
or another during the series) might be a turn off. But she tries to fit in and
enjoy life. Bella is also one who has an affinity for dangerous things... and,
in a more real sense; things she "shouldn't" love. The in-human nature of
these things is more like a fascimile of the wierd situations where, even though
something seems good and right for us... we don't want it and instead want
something that wouldn't make sense to anyone else.
 

I really do need to get around to reading Midnight Sun, I suppose, so I can come up with a rebuttal to that. xD

 

Eh... I wouldn't bother in honesty... It's not finished and due to a illegal
leak of the early rough draft it probably never will be published. Only Robert
Pattison has a full working copy of the current draft. Well, Robert and Stephanie.
She posted the first chapter and a bit of the rough draft on her website for
the fans, but if you think Twilight in it's finished form is riddled with confusion and
mistakes, don't read her drafts... they are nauseating!

But, although she admires him, they don't seem to have common interests.

*shrugs* I just get that information from the text, they want to spend every minute
together... kinda like an old married couple.... they can do something... or nothing...
for hours and still enjoy the time. But it feels to me like they enjoy similar things... I
would imagine bella's interest in history and education is a mutual interest.

Actually, I do believe attraction to be an important part of a relationship- It's just that it seems like that's all their relationship is based upon. The person made of ice thing was kind of a joke, what I meant was that it simply wouldn't be the same.

I think it only seems that way because the writing is so juvenile. Teens
probably don't sit there and go "But what draws Bella TO Edward?" Unless they
are "Team Jacob" as it were, and then it's for a whole different reason. If the
target audience is asking those questions, then either the target audience member
asking actually should be reading more challenging books or the novel publishing
community needs to re-evaluate their marketing system.

Meyer has said that she left the original description of Bella open so that readers could identify with her more. Her cardboard personality seems to add to this.

Yeah, but maybe that goes with the interest thing too? You
could imagine him liking things she likes. They kinda illude to her
enjoying music thats similar to his tastes, and also they are both
studious little bookworms, providing a possible interest relation in
education or books? You are right, Meyer didn't take enough time
to explain what they did other than sit around and talk about
Vampire stuff... but I suppose, with all the hours not mentioned
in the books... they wouldn't be together if they bored eachother
out of their minds.

I felt that Jacob had been gone for good when he said that.

I couldn't agree more, I actually really hated the ending to Twilight. Not
so much in a way that made me hate the books but in a way that was like,
NO! Everything IS NOT Alright! But thats because I feel for Jacob there,
and I feel like his happy ending was a cop-out. He should have ended up
sad.

I've read the books several times. They don't do anything without cause, but they do go to the extreme on their actions.

Well they are teenagers... and the book is written for teens...
and EVERYTHING in a teens life is cranked up to 11 ya know... lol ^_^

Woohoo... this takes me too long... It's amazing how out of practice I am!

~Allykat

[MiriaRose]

I picked up Twilight thinking it had a pretty cover when I was in 7th grade. I hadn't read many romance novels then, so I didn't know how much I would dislike it.

Well congrats! I think you probably read it just a year or so after me (Ironically I
heard about the book on another LDS author's website, Hatrackriver and purchased
it very soon after... but I still prefer OSC to any other author!) And I'm glad you were
able to find out at a young age that you do not prefer these types of books, it'll save
you from buying duds in the future! I suppose the old saying holds true then yes? Don't
judge a book buy it's cover? But then again, I've found a great interesting many novels
that way... I digress...

Actually, I was in 7th grade the year it came out. xD;; Also, yes, don't judge a book by its cover.

Alright, the rich thing was going too far. However, it seems that Bella only cares about special, unhuman people- If you're normal, she doesn't care about you and calls you a nerd or something to that extent, like she did with Eric and Mike.

Well to be honest, I don't like people like Eric and Mike either,
which is why I might connect with bella on that. But in her situation
they'd probably end up being the friends I'd have. They are just too jubulant
and impulsive, which for someone who is constantly called an old soul (mother,
father, edward, carlisle, alice, jacob and jessica all call her this at one point
or another during the series) might be a turn off. But she tries to fit in and
enjoy life. Bella is also one who has an affinity for dangerous things... and,
in a more real sense; things she "shouldn't" love. The in-human nature of
these things is more like a fascimile of the wierd situations where, even though
something seems good and right for us... we don't want it and instead want
something that wouldn't make sense to anyone else.

She makes assumptions on Eric and Mike after she's known them for a minute. First impressions, yes, but she doesn't need to insult them when she barely knows them.
 

I really do need to get around to reading Midnight Sun, I suppose, so I can come up with a rebuttal to that. xD

 

Eh... I wouldn't bother in honesty... It's not finished and due to a illegal
leak of the early rough draft it probably never will be published. Only Robert
Pattison has a full working copy of the current draft. Well, Robert and Stephanie.
She posted the first chapter and a bit of the rough draft on her website for
the fans, but if you think Twilight in it's finished form is riddled with confusion and
mistakes, don't read her drafts... they are nauseating!

Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows was leaked, but it was published anyways. Also, Robert Pattison hates Twilight, from what I recall.

But, although she admires him, they don't seem to have common interests.

*shrugs* I just get that information from the text, they want to spend every minute
together... kinda like an old married couple.... they can do something... or nothing...
for hours and still enjoy the time. But it feels to me like they enjoy similar things... I
would imagine bella's interest in history and education is a mutual interest.

She has an interest in history an education? Since when?

Actually, I do believe attraction to be an important part of a relationship- It's just that it seems like that's all their relationship is based upon. The person made of ice thing was kind of a joke, what I meant was that it simply wouldn't be the same.

I think it only seems that way because the writing is so juvenile. Teens
probably don't sit there and go "But what draws Bella TO Edward?" Unless they
are "Team Jacob" as it were, and then it's for a whole different reason. If the
target audience is asking those questions, then either the target audience member
asking actually should be reading more challenging books or the novel publishing
community needs to re-evaluate their marketing system.

Eh. Perhaps I just enjoy more advanced books.

Meyer has said that she left the original description of Bella open so that readers could identify with her more. Her cardboard personality seems to add to this.

Yeah, but maybe that goes with the interest thing too? You
could imagine him liking things she likes. They kinda illude to her
enjoying music thats similar to his tastes, and also they are both
studious little bookworms, providing a possible interest relation in
education or books? You are right, Meyer didn't take enough time
to explain what they did other than sit around and talk about
Vampire stuff... but I suppose, with all the hours not mentioned
in the books... they wouldn't be together if they bored eachother
out of their minds.

Okay, music. Almost forgot that. But books. . All Bella is seen reading is books that are a requirement to read, such as Wuthering Heights, Romeo and Juliet, etc. While that doesn't mean she isn't a true bookworm, it doesn't really do much to make me believe that she reads very much. It doesn't have to include super obscure books, but ones that aren't an English requirement would be nice.

I felt that Jacob had been gone for good when he said that.

I couldn't agree more, I actually really hated the ending to Twilight. Not
so much in a way that made me hate the books but in a way that was like,
NO! Everything IS NOT Alright! But thats because I feel for Jacob there,
and I feel like his happy ending was a cop-out. He should have ended up
sad.

Yay, another thing we agree on! ^^

I've read the books several times. They don't do anything without cause, but they do go to the extreme on their actions.

Well they are teenagers... and the book is written for teens...
and EVERYTHING in a teens life is cranked up to 11 ya know... lol ^_^

Woohoo... this takes me too long... It's amazing how out of practice I am!

~Allykat

It is? Perhaps I live a very boring life, then.

Also, yeah, this takes me a while, too.

[Rathany]

Twilight only annoys me because it's marketed in a way I wish other geek stuff was marketed.  Seriously, there are Twilight-inspired products showing up in NORDSTROMS now.  Some of the Tshirts and other stuff, if they made stuff that nice for fandoms I liked I'd be even broker. 

Sad little geek is sad. 

But, love it or hate it, no matter what it's flaws it takes some serious skills to get so many people so hooked on a story. 

[TanisNikana]

Requesting this thread be locked and possibly deleted for trolling.

On my behalf, actually.

(I only noticed this was trolling when I woke up this morning, and saw that for my three lines I got pages and pages.)

[MiriaRose]

So we're allowed to debate about presidential elections on here but not about a book series?

[TanisNikana]

That and I should honestly get the hammer for trolling like this.

[AllyKat]

So we're allowed to debate about presidential elections on here but not about a book series?

I think what Tanis is kindly trying to do is point out that he goaded this discussion in
a way that wasn't quite an invitation to discussion, and more of a call to mockery
of said topic. It'd be like starting a post that says "Obama is the worst president ever!"
And then 2 sentences stating that again. Followed by 3 pages of posts discussing the
idea. Just because we eventually worked it out into a well meaning and engaging debate
doesn't neccesarily mean the OP is still not trolling and therefor trying to cause problems.
If our debate ends and someone else, possibly one of the aforementioned Twitards sees
this thread, it could incur the wrath of a thousand angry 11 year olds which would descend
upon the thread in a flame war of epic proportions. That is not okay, and would warrant
the swift destruction of the thread by Moderators. As it stands... well we will see.

By the way, a rebuttal to your comments Miria may or may not come here, I'll pm it
to you if the thread is locked... I had it nearly finished and then accidentally deleted
out of the window... so... I will try and re-write it again later.

~Allykat

[TanisNikana]

Just because we eventually worked it out into a well meaning and engaging debate
doesn't necessarily mean the OP is still not trolling and therefore trying to cause problems.

The OP didn't post because he forgot about the thread and had other things to do, like assemble staff for his game, get groceries, and play Carcassonne. This was more of the "accidental trolling" sort of trolling. Still probably gonna get smacked down for it, though.

[MiriaRose]

So we're allowed to debate about presidential elections on here but not about a book series?

I think what Tanis is kindly trying to do is point out that he goaded this discussion in
a way that wasn't quite an invitation to discussion, and more of a call to mockery
of said topic. It'd be like starting a post that says "Obama is the worst president ever!"
And then 2 sentences stating that again. Followed by 3 pages of posts discussing the
idea. Just because we eventually worked it out into a well meaning and engaging debate
doesn't neccesarily mean the OP is still not trolling and therefor trying to cause problems.
If our debate ends and someone else, possibly one of the aforementioned Twitards sees
this thread, it could incur the wrath of a thousand angry 11 year olds which would descend
upon the thread in a flame war of epic proportions. That is not okay, and would warrant
the swift destruction of the thread by Moderators. As it stands... well we will see.

By the way, a rebuttal to your comments Miria may or may not come here, I'll pm it
to you if the thread is locked... I had it nearly finished and then accidentally deleted
out of the window... so... I will try and re-write it again later.

~Allykat

The people on this forum are pretty chill, though. Just because he may or may not have meant to troll doesn't mean that we can't get some good out of it. Everyone is freaking out and saying that this is a terrible discussion and that we're all going to argue and say mean things, but we haven't yet. If some 11 year olds do decide to come in and cause trouble, then by all means, lock the thread- But until then, we aren't doing anything wrong.

Also, I doubt he meant to just leave this thread to madness. If he was going to troll, he would've added gas to the flames.

[~boogiepop~]

Well then, before this closes I just want to say that I was told for the first time the plot synopsis of Twilight on Friday.


My response was ".....what?"
Baby vampire thing is what pushed it over the edge into crazy territory.

[TomtheFanboy]

Tanis I think you're actually causing more of a disruption by making lock requests than you did with the initial post.
(and so am I but that's nothing new)

The rest of us should just let the two chronic quoters continue their debate or whatever. Locking the thread would be unfair to Miria since Allykat is a mod now and could just post a final rebuttal.

[TanisNikana]

I'd like to quote Lymle when I say "'kay".

[MiriaRose]

I like Tom's idea. 

[DemonSpawn]

Well then, before this closes I just want to say that I was told for the first time the plot synopsis of Twilight on Friday.


My response was ".....what?"
Baby vampire thing is what pushed it over the edge into crazy territory.

Yeah, If anything, the last book is what made me angry, I was like 'wtf is this even the same series anymore?'
Just went downhill from there.

[kylite]

Can I atleast ask that the quote trees be kept to a minimum. its...obnoxious to scroll through