Fanfic Panel

[BlackjackGabbiani]

First off, am I a panelist? I don't think I got a direct answer to that...

Second--what should I bring to this if I am?

[staze]

the person to respond to that should be getting on the forum very soon... hang tight... an answer is on the way.  :-)

[RemSaverem]

hi! after a couple days of difficulty in logging in, here i am!
my apologies; i thought this had been verified in our yahoo group.

to the best of my understanding, yes, you are officially one of our panelists.

filkaeris (aj) is another of our official panelists.

wankybloke was also offered an official spot, representing younger authors. she suggested that her friend grace might also be considered--grace, who is throwing the mini otaku-con at willamette high in eugene, this saturday from 1pm to 4pm, and who had an exquisite, anime-inspired piece in my art show this past february.

i am not familiar with grace as an author, only an artist, however; and amy and i had not heard, yet, anything from katie, who spoke last year, regarding whether or not she would like to resume a spot on the panel.

within the kumoricon_fanfiction yahoo group,  we had just started contemplating how many speakers we would like to have, total. amy was interested in potentially having sort of a moderator role. i wouldn't mind assisting in a moderating capacity, and/or speaking specifically regarding beta reading, as i did last year (but having a lot more beta'ing under my belt since then). but i'm not attached to having that role. amy and i are the programming co-coordinators for fanfic, and we'll have several other roles beyond the panel.

in terms of what you would bring for the panel: the sky's the limit. my dream would be for the workshop to open with folks cosplaying from their own fanfics

either here, and/or in the yahoo group, we should have those who are confirmed speakers, and those wishing to join the panel, those who attended last year's workshop, and anyone else with input, brainstorm what we'd want the workshop to look like. i imagine that at some point, we need to let other con organizers know approximately what size of room we would like. my goal would be to have a room that was not immediately adjacent to something noisy (remember times i could not hear folks in the back of the room, over the gaming competitions next door).

we should also think about how we want the room to be configured. lecture format? or all sitting in a circle, kind of all sharing equally?

i'm totally open-minded, in terms of the range of content for the workshop. themes, games, etc.

i would like there to be specific times/places that folks could bring their pieces for on-site beta'ing. i would love to encourage congoers of all ages and levels of experience, to bring their work for enthusiastic, albeit constructive, feedback, and to also encourage congoers of all ages and levels of experience, to share in providing that feedback. i would love to have displays up all around the con, highlighting excerpts from last year's fanfic contest entries, all of which, imho, were superlatively enjoyable reads.  

we also need to start thinking about parameters of the contest(s). for example, whether to continue to delineate one winner for best serious piece and one for best humorous piece, and/or to create other categories. we need to think about what we would like to offer as grand prizes, and what as participation prizes for everyone. we need to think about the grounds on which pieces are judged, and to select the judging panel. i am definitely intent to be a judge. we also need to set specific boundaries: for example, if i have beta'd a piece, i would see it as conflict of interest for me to then be one of the judges on that piece. but i do not want to rule out potential contestants simply for my having beta'd them; so i would want to have a system whereby, for example, perhaps there would be a panel of 5 judges, and at least 4 judges have to critique each piece...that way, whomever might have beta'd (or even authored?) the piece, could recuse themselves from judging that one piece, but the piece itself would not need to be disqualified?

well, i'm hoping to hear from everyone interested!

thanks, blackjack, for getting the dialogue rolling!

love,
rem.

p.s. anyone who wishes may join our kumoricon_fanfiction yahoo group, as well! post here, or pm me, or email me at rem_saverem_was_right@yahoo.com, for more information/to enroll!

love,
rem.

p.p.s.
is anyone going to the otakucon besides me? we should definitely shmooze fanfic there! the school would even allow folks to prereg for kumoricon there, if anyone able to do so can attend!

[staze]

Rem,

Please let me know if you decide what type of prizes you are wanting to give out.  I will do what I can to get you some prizes that work for Fanfic contestants.

if you have any questions, etc, post them for me in the staff area.  =)

[FilkAeris]

The panel sounds like great fun, and if possible I'd like my two cents to be a basic list of do's and don'ts and possibly a few quick tips on Mary Sue Identification.  I can talk filk a little, too, if you like.

As for beta'ing:  I'd love to.  ^_^  If we're playing good cop/bad cop in-panel while discussing beta'ing, I'll play bad cop if necessary.  I have practice in being honest about work quality without being actually, personally cruel or flaming.  And I could always warn beta'ees beforehand that, if what they want is "OMG TIHS FIC IS SOOOO KAWWAIIIII!!1  PLZ WRIT MORE OR ILL CRI!!!!11" they can go post their stuff on ff.net.  >.<

[staze]

gah... dies from teh bad gramar!  

omg omg, asl asl, lol, gg.  =D

[RemSaverem]

yes, i was counting on you to cover filking, AJ

legolas, thanks for the offer. my hope would be that we would first decide for how many different categories we'll have prizes, and then consense to have small participation prizes for each contestant. i love the idea of tailoring each to their particular fandom; but that certainly makes it trickier to obtain gifties ahead of time from donors. logical gifties include manga, gift certificates for rentals, cards, plushies or figurines related to shows, etc. however, i also thought it might be cool to have things like journals....for those as antiquated (and/or disabled) as me (i'm both) who prefer to still work on *gasp!* paper! lol...

[princessfrodo]

Journals actually are a great idea for prizes, a lot of writers I know still write on paper, and then type out the final drafts. ^.^

My two cents on catagories:

Mary Sue/OC
Drama/Tragedy/Angst
Comedy
Parody

Those are the basic catagories that can sort most fanfiction, though there are  always a few that just can't fall into any group named.  Those are also the easiest catagories to describe. ^.^;

[Sheltie]

There should also be an "other" catogery.  Beware the other catgory!  muagaahaha!

Sheltie

[FilkAeris]

Don't forget Romance/Fluff/PWP!  ^_^  It can't be lumped in with MarySue/OC, because so much of it occurs with canon characters only.

(And, for that matter, not all MarySue/OCs are romance-centric.  Some of them involve action, angst, comedy...frankly, I don't know if MarySue/OC should be a category.  It's more like a subcategory, since all it really means is that it's a story focusing on a character not in the original source material.  The plot can go absolutely anywhere, though in my opinion it tends to go straight down when it's a genuine Mary Sue.  OCs are a different matter.)

please forgive my ignorance as a mere beta, but what is PWP?
is OC the same as OOC (out of character)?
would we want to have a category for MS, while having it be part of the workshop, to explain reasons why an MS is not a good idea for a fanfic? that would feel to me to be too much of a mixed message.
thanks for the support for the journal idea. i'm glad there are others out there who prefer to work on hardcopy!

i would imagine it would be preferable to have unlined paper, in case someone is also drawing their characters, mapping out locations for the storyline, etc.

i tend to prefer recycled and/or non-tree papers (yep, i'm a tree-hugger).

what are some locations that sell cool journals? are there any places from which we might recruit donations thereof?

btw, to the folks i haven't met before who posted: hi!!! i'm so excited that you're here!!! excited enough to use the cliche of multiple exclamation points!!! :lol: forgive me...

so how did you hear of us? what are your experiences in writing, reading, dreaming of, and/or critiquing fan fic? we'd love your participation, at any level!

love,
rem.

[RemSaverem]

oops!!!
silly me...i didn't realize that when i clicked on the link in the message in my email, that i would only be in the forum as a guest, rather than logged in! that post above is from me  :oops: sorry, folks!

love,
rem.

p.s. great news!!!

last night, i reconnected with one of my cofacilitators from a workshop we gave last year at an internationally attended political conference. she's the author of an internationally renowned book in the field of alternative approaches to mental health. she's working on another book, and feeling like she needs some help with it....so now i'm going to be her beta! for a whole book! which is going to be internationally distributed!

wow!
 
yeah, i'm excited.

and i would love to hear of everyone else's projects!

[RemSaverem]

kumoricon programming staff are having a meeting, this wednesday, at 5:30 pm. by that time, i need to have a sense of when those interested in the fanfic panel and workshop would like those to be held: which day, which time, which size room, for how long.

this is my gut level feeling; i'm hoping for everyone's input.

i would aim for something like:

medium-sized room, away from really loud stuff. last year, i couldn't hear some participants in the back, from the speakers' table, over the ruckus from the gaming room next door, even with our door closed! i'm going to put in a request to evade such this year.

same room for workshop and for contest results, if possible, to make it easier for folks to remember and find us.

24 hours between start of workshop and presentation of contest results, if possible. continuity of time would also help memory and turn out. i.e., if the workshop were at 11 am on sunday, the results would be at 11 am on monday.

5 to 10 hours between the end of the workshop, and the cut off time for submissions for the contest. example: workshop 11 am to 1pm; entries accepted until 6, or until 11pm.

my thoughts are that: (a) we want to be sure judges have enough time to seriously review all entries, and to compare notes with each other; (b) we want to be sure that there is enough time after the workshop, for anyone who is inspired, by the workshop, to join the contest, to do so...to whip up something quick and/or get online (will there be access at the marriot, like there was at the clarion? i hope so!) and print something they'd posted for friends, themselves, or a website....(c) i personally think it would be more exciting for the awards to be given right there at the con, than to have to find out later, online, who won...i think that if the awards are given ceremoniously, it aids in eliciting turnout and drumming up enthusiasm (plus is logistically easier).

i think it would be fun to have a little judge-a-thon in one of the con central rooms or something...and if it is like last year, some entries will trickle in in the days before the con, so it won't be like we'll have to crunch on every entry right there on site.

anyway, what do others think? i will copy and paste this into the fanfic workshop section, as well.

i need input, asap, please! thanks!

love,
rem.

[FilkAeris]

Okay, let me be more clear:

A)  OC means Original Character.  Anyone who is not actually in the series, but is in your fanfiction (and has something distinctive about them, aka, non-cannon-fodder) is an OC.  OCs are fine and usually add to the story they're in.  They can be anyone from a ramen vendor to a new supporting or even main character, as long as they're handled realistically, appealingly, and well.

B)  A "Mary Sue" is the dark side of the OC.  The term "Mary Sue" began in the Star Trek fandom, in "honor" of a spectacularly Sue-ish character named Mary Sue.  A Mary Sue is basically the author in disguise.  Now, I know many authors put parts of themselves into their stories, but a Mary Sue *is* the author, and we can tell because the author has vainly made themself the "coolest" person in the story.  For example...

"Daisy Proudfoot", the young hobbitlass who plays supporting character to Rosie Cotton and Diamond Took in a story about the girls' side of the Scouring of the Shire, speaks in proper hobbit dialect, and beans an orc over the head with a saucepan, is an OC.

"Jessica", the beautiful and talented young woman from the normal world with long shining golden hair down to her waist and sapphire-blue eyes who wears a purple t-shirt and Dockers and lots of bangle bracelets and blue jeans with flowers embroidered on the cuffs, who steps through the back of her closet one day and finds herself in Middle Earth, where she sings Backstreet Boys songs to Legolas and falls madly in love with him, as well as becoming the tenth member of the Fellowship and facing down the Dark Lord Sauron singlehandedly in a badly-written fight scene involving sword skillz taught to her by Aragorn (since he's got nothing better to do and, besides, is madly in love with her as well; forget Arwen, she was a brat and never really cared about him)...

That's a Mary Sue.

Common symptoms include flowery overdescription of hair, eyes, and every detail of clothing; either a modern-day western name like Stacey or Jared (yes, there are Marty Stus as well), a made-up "Japanese" name like "Yiresha" or "Kanjitro", or a ridiculously fancy one that doesn't fit the fandom, like Starshine Goldeneyes or Bravesword Dragonkiller; the ability to make canon characters love them madly with no real, quality development of said relationship; the abrupt and unexplained transformation of said canon character's real one true love into a world-class OOC jerk to justify their being dumped in favor of Mary/Marty; incredible battle abilities, especially ones they logically shouldn't have (like Bravesword Dragonkiller being able to use the main character's super special attack that, in canon, only that character can use...and Bravesword's version is even kewler!!!11); and the possession of some fancy-schmancy physical attribute, usually angel wings or animal ears and tail, even when said attributes make no sense in the universe chosen for the fic.

And, just to voice my opinion, no, I don't think we should have a category for Mary Sues or OCs.  Mary Sues are a plague, and OCs should blend neatly into any category, thus voiding the need for their own.  (If they don't, they're probably a Mary Sue anyway.)

[staze]

Harsh.  :-P  

While I'm no regular to FanFic, I have to wonder if "Mary Sues" could be a decent thing if they were to allow for the story to be told in a first person sense.  Or perhaps a second person sense.  Skipping all the crap about how cool the character is from the outside world, just allowing for a more integrated perspective on the story.  

But as I said... I don't write FanFic, I'm just looking at this from a pure author point of view and writing style point of view.  While I can see how the tripe dealing with how special said Mary Sue would be a burden and curse on a perhaps otherwise salvageable story would be, I think they might be able to work if the author cared more about the telling of a story and less about making themselves uber.  :-P  Then again, there may be a totally different word for such a case in FanFic that I am unaware of.  

My 3/16ths of a cent.

[FilkAeris]

*grins*  What you're describing is an OC, Staze, and I've already said those are great.  ^_^

[staze]

but but... an OC I would think would be another character in the story that is... bah.  But it could very well be the author that's in this position that I'm describing... just not so uberlicious (hahaha, great word...).  But I guess if the only difference between an OC and a "Mary Sue" is the way in which the author describes them and portrays them, then I guess yes, I am describing an OC rather than a Mary Sue.  

Fine, show off, show how much more you know about FanFic... I'll just, go, play with a computer somewhere. :-P

ok that was the most amusing read i've had in a forum in awhile. thanks, folks!

and yes, the delineation between OC and mary sue is important and due. ok, no MS category, and what you said is logical in terms of, an OC should blend and not be the defining characteristic of the fic.

having just come from the adorable little mini con at the high school (go grace!!), i am definitely enamored of the idea of awarding a prize along the lines of "best newbie"--only open to those who have never shared their writing in any other competition. there's something comparable to this in the SCA, kind of a newbies tourney. it's wonderful to overtly welcome folks who might not think their work is up to par with seasoned veterans, who might just be exploring the genre, etc....

today i met remarkable teens who draw their chacters from their fics, write out elaborate maps of alliances among their characters in the universes they create that are not based on shows, watch malice mizer dvds and write slash and are totally open to gender play and varying sexual orientations to a degree it would have made my life easier if such had existed when i was younger; and kids who know about real life magicks, and generally blew me away.

anyway, some of the stuff i glanced at today led me to wonder if we might'nt also have a category for stories that are completely non-canonical, i.e. universes entirely of the authors' creation? or is that considered something entirely other than fanfic, by definition?

[RemSaverem]

:oops: sorry, folks; that was me. i keep forgetting to log in!

[staze]

wouldn't that be fiction rather than fanfiction?  I mean, they're fans (of their own fiction), but it's not really drawing characters from anywhere.  It's like fan art of original characters, or cosplaying as someone that you create (though, that's probably more acceptable in the term than the others).  I would think if you're going to cover completely original pieces that are not based on anything else, they should definately be in a different group defined as "fiction".  

But then, once again, that's just me.  :-P

[RemSaverem]

well, i can definitely see how it's another category entirely; that was kind of the point of my post.....i was just wondering if it was a category *so* distinct that it would need its own contest, or whether it could be a category in a fanfic contest. i guess how i was conceptualizing it, is that for example, today at otakucon, some of the art in the art competition was recognizably of characters from canon. others of the pieces were creations that were clearly anime inspired, and could have been from various of the anime universes, but were characters of the artists own creation. so which are allowed to be considered fanart? in terms of genre and in terms of a contest or something? only those of defined, canonical characters? those who are not distinct canonical characters, but who have sufficient attributes that one could discern in what canonical universe they would fit? or any figure, so long as the artistic style is clearly derived from anime?

last year's kumoricon was my first con, so i don't have the exposure to these issues that others may.

[FilkAeris]

I would say no, for this reason:

If they're writing quality original fiction, they should be sending it to legitimate contests, or even getting it published.  ^_^  Let's face it, cons are some of the only places where fanfiction can get attention and win prizes.  Fanfiction doesn't get published, doesn't make a profit, and for the most part doesn't get professional approval.  It's the redheaded stepchild of original fiction.

Original fiction kicks butt, but there are a million markets for it, and it's there that it should be sent.  Why waste it on a fanfiction contest?  Especially since that's one of the few places where fanfiction can get recognized and appreciated in and of itself.

(This reminds me of the debate over the rave at Sakuracon...dangit, people, no matter how fun it was, you can go to a rave anytime!  An anime/gaming dance is rare and generally only seen at cons, and shouldn't be deleted in favor of something you can do all year round!  >.<)

[zenix]

redheaded stepchild of original fiction

i take offence at that im a red head stepchild

lol i dont really take offence just though it was funny :lol:  :twisted:

[staze]

well, AJ, I tend to agree to a point.  I must say though, that it's not all the time that someone can go to such a tame rave.  Maybe up at WU, but in Portland or Eugene, most of the raves are loaded with various chemicals and are all in all a lot less PG-13.  

That said, I would tend to agree that Fiction probably isn't considered fanfiction and therefore probably shouldn't be included.  Though, if someone really wants, draw some stick figures and call it manga... :-P

[RemSaverem]

the lovely and exquisitely talented filkaeris of our kumoricon_fanfiction yahoo group has proposed an addition to fanfic programming, which carries my wholehearted endorsement. she's calling it the "fanfic cafe". the basic gist is that it will be an open mic for authors to read their own fics. my aspiration is that eventually, if not for this con then for next year's, we could have it be that in the cafe, folks cosplay their own fics.

we're currently trying to decide whether to have the cafe be its own event, or to merge it with the beta station, or to merge it with the fanfic workshop, perhaps expanding the workshop from 2 hours to 3, then splitting it down the middle: 1 1/2 hrs. panel, 1 1/2 hrs. reading.

another possibility would be to merge it with the contest: perhaps there could be a special award for the person who does the most animated presentation of their fic?

feedback, anyone?

[BlackjackGabbiani]

Ooh, would that involve appropiate costumes? Because I'm not going as *anyone* that I write about...(it's odd that I haven't done anything for JP yet, though...I really should one of these days)

[RemSaverem]

well, filkaeris and amy have been leaning on the side of not having any competition involved in the reading, so that folks can feel relaxed and more comfy to participate; but i would definitely give extra coolness/brownie points to anyone who cosplayed for the cafe! whether their character were in their own fic, someone else's, or was simply fun to look at and wonder about

[BlackjackGabbiani]

Oooh, brownie points...

...that reminds me. Since this is called a 'Cafe', will there be refreshments? For some reason I'm thinking lemonaide, but I'm not sure why.

And since I'll be staying at home and just coming every day, I can probably bake cookies or something.

[RemSaverem]

that's a fabulous offer, blackjack!
i'm awaiting word from the folks in operations regarding who can serve refreshments and/or sell and/or collect donations from them, and where and when.

[BlackjackGabbiani]

All right--if so, what kinds of cookies shall we have?

[princessfrodo]

Snickerdoodles! ^.^

I can send you some of my Great Grandma's recipes if you need any.  She was really good at making cookies. ^.^

[EvilMonkey]

Note: We won't be able to have any hand-prepared foods available due to health code risks.

[princessfrodo]

....Mary Sue description stuff here...

Great description of a Mary Sue.  And yes, most do turn out horrid.  Extremely horrid. >.<

But I have read two fanfic's in my life with Mary Sue's that actually turned out rather well.

1) Naruto's Mom (pm me if you want a link)

2) Some GW fanfic that I lost track of.  But it was still good. (Published on ff.net sometime in May-June of 2002)

OC's tend to get annoying too, though.  Sometimes you KNOW the author was trying to avoid a Mary Sue with an OC, and failed miserable.

*sigh* writing is just too hard somtimes. ^.^;

[RemSaverem]

mmm. bummer. i was really looking forward to cookies.

well, i suppose individuals could still bring them and share them with each other, just not give them out publicly.

[staze]

that is a very gray area... you could give them to friends... but if they start going out to other people, the line between a generous congoer and the con sanctioning it is very fine... people get sick, and we have a lawsuit on our hands.  

I suppose the less we know the better, and the more you know the people you're giving them to the better.

[RemSaverem]

yowza. liability sure seems to get in the way of fun, some times

[Ryuichi]

Well, even without home cooking, you can buy stuff pretty good. Grocery Outlet on Canyon Rd. has lots of cheap snacks. ^_____^

So, I read these three pages, skimmed a few entries, and have gotten myself a little confused because I'm a dense baka at times-- fanfiction. Is it going to just be a panel to talk about it, or an actual contest...? And if it's a contest, how exactly do we apply/submit? *_* Whenever information on it is finalized, will it go up on the main site...?

[RemSaverem]

thank you for asking!

yes, we will be having a panel in which people will talk about writing, reading and critiquing fanfic.

and yes, we will be having a contest!

people will submit their original fanfics to us, we will judge them, and we will be giving prizes and announcing results.

plans are still being finalized, but this is what it all looks like for now:

between now and the con, anyone can submit fics to us for the contest, in person, online, by fax, by email, by pm on the forum, or by joining our kumoricon_fanfiction yahoo group.

soon, we hope to begin working on the first issue of our zine, as well.

at the con, on saturday and potentially even friday, there will be a location called "the beta station". this will be a place in which anyone may approach fanfic staff and/or volunteers, for information about the contest and workshop, for info about how to write and critique fanfic, for on-site beta reading, and to drop off entries for the contest. moreover, folks can come to the beta station to check out our zine (if it's done in time) and to submit for the next issue (art, fics, poems, filks, essays, etc). and additionally, folks can come through there to sign up to read their fics or others' (see below).

at some point during the con, probably on saturday night, we are hoping to have either a "fanfic cafe" and/or "fanfic bedtime stories". either version would be a public opporutnity for fanfic authors to read their stories aloud to an appreciative audience. and for those who want to have their stories read, but not by themselves, they can drop by the beta station and sign up, and we will also have folks sign up to read others' fics.

then at some point during the con, probably late sunday morning / early sunday afternoon, we will be having the fanfic workshop.

the deadline for contest submissions will probably be something like 2 hours after the end of the fanfic workshop. that way, if anyone hadn't been sure whether or not to enter the contest, then came to the workshop and got inspired, they could hop on a computer (there was one at the hotel we had the con at last year, anyway) and download and print their fics off their lj's or blogs or ff.net or whatever, and submit them. (or xerox a paper copy from their journals, if anyone else besides me prefers good old fashioned paper these days!)

then all night sunday, amy and i and whomever is our 3rd judge will be judging the fics, and ideally, the winners will be announced at closing ceremonies on monday. we may even be able to have the prizes there on hand monday, though last year we tailored each prize to each winner, and that might take some time.

i hope this info helps!

and yes, as details emerge, we will post them on the forums. thanks for asking! we hope to see you there!

love,
rem.

[RemSaverem]

just wanted to apologize to everyone; i just started 2 new jobs, nearly 80 hrs/ week, no computer access...a little out of the loop...sorry

[RemSaverem]

our workshop will be held on sunday...time yet to be decided...check here for info.

the location will be the salem room. this room is 22 x 19 and seats 40 in chairs. if attendance exceeds that, we'll just stack some of the chairs!

the salem room is located on the main floor. it is next to the stairs down to the gaming room, and (slightly diagonally) across from the main salon/ballroom.

we will have this room entirely dedicated to fanfic for all of sunday and all of monday.

so drop by any time. if there is not programming during the time you drop by, i'm likely to be there for the beta station (see separate thread). whether any staff are there or not, feel free to use the space to polish up any fanfics you might be working on, either for our contest, our zine, or our new, exciting, fanfic bedtime stories event!

see you there!

[RemSaverem]

here is the event copy as it currently stands:

the panelists are blackjack gabbiani, filkaeris, and
hayley (wankybloke). notably, all 3 were highly
skilled contestants in last year's kumoricon fanfic
contest. hopefully the 3 of them will provide you with
precise wording regarding workshop content and
structure. however, among the topics to be discussed
will likely be: fanfic do's and don'ts; getting
started; intro to the genre; legalities and
disclaimers; subcategories such as alternate
universes; tendencies such as mary sues/marty stus;
approaches in beta reading; character development and
continuity with the canon; places to network one's
fics; etc.

[RemSaverem]

the workshop will be held 1pm to 3pm, sunday, in the salem room.