Weapons Policy / Firearm Replica Question

[Prinz Eugen]

Here's just a question. Some anime characters happen to carry firearms as part of their persona, or their job in the story.
The convention weapons policy forbids bringing any actual, functioning firearm into con space. (No problems with that!)

Question: Imagine a solid plastic DUMMY barrel made on a lathe and decorated with a red tip, with maybe a shallow hole at the muzzle but solid for the rest of its length. The other end would not have a chamber. Take the real barrel out of the real gun and drop in this plastic piece. Alternatively, the whole piece can be made of plastic in a color which tells that its not metal. (Solid blue Delrin, polished transparent orange polycarbonate...)

You now have an assembly that includes a red tipped muzzle, but CANNOT chamber a round, or even set it off. The solid area of the breech means that even if there were a live round somewhere in the gun, it could not be positioned in a place where the firing mechanism in the slide assembly (or bolt assembly) could possibly align with the primer and be simultaneously engaged with the trigger mechanism. (But you could close the slide, and a trigger pull would drop the hammer onto the plastic of the dummy barrel.)
You could also load real ammunition in the magazine, but there would be no place for the rounds to leave the magazine. This would be as useless as cosplaying with a few rounds of ammo in your pants pocket - not really useful to the presentation of the character. Plastic dummy ammunition is also available anyways and you could load a few of those in the magazine.

So:
a) Solid plastic dummy barrel with red tip, or obvious it's-not-metal color.
b) Device cannot chamber real ammunition
c) Trigger cannot set off a real round

BUT:
d) rest of the parts are real, including the serial-numbered receiver or frame and
e) entering that serial number in a firearms database such as NICS would turn up information on a real firearm.

So could a person carry such a deactivated device and get it peace-bonded?

Note: I do not have any plans or armed character in mind for me to do this myself - I just find this an interesting question and would like to know whether it satisfies the con weapons policy.

[GregAtlas]

I have been curious about that too, only my idea was to remove the firing pin and of course having the orange tip. I have a feeling it wouldn't fly with staff though since I doubt the person working the peace-bonding table would have that much knowledge of a gun for either of our cases (no offense meant). Airsoft guns aren't even allowed at k-con, but I was wondering if making them incapable of firing would count as well. **shrug**

Then there's Sakuracon who doesn't even allow Nerf guns anymore... Seriously people? >.>

[Prinz Eugen]

We are also, of course, including proper carrying precautions and behaviours, as in:

- holstered in the appropriate/authentic accessory holster when portraying the chara,
- removed from holster only for examination for /demonstration of authenticity
  (I am thinking of certain features of Rally Vincent's 1978-ish CZ75 9mm which has
distinctive features of the frame, or the round-in-chamber detector post sometimes seen on sport models but no seen - in my limited knowledge - on Czech police-issue pieces... Or if someone had some custome skull-and-cutlass grips made for Revy's Beretta FS-92. And all that Thai writing on the slide...)

- NOT doing stupid things like pointing the muzzle at people...

[DarkStar]

So could a person carry such a deactivated device and get it peace-bonded?

If it is no longer legally defined as a firearm (and abides by the other rules for props/weapons) I agree that it should be allowed to be peace-bonded and allowed in the convention area.

Per Oregon Revised Statutes 166.210 (3), a firearm is defined as a weapon, by whatever name known, which is designed to expel a projectile by the action of powder. So, the removal of the firing pin should be sufficient for it to no longer be considered a firearm since it can no longer "expel a projectile by the action of powder."

BTW, I am not a lawyer nor play one on TV.

[Prinz Eugen]

[ @GregAtlas: I'd go further and say that removal of the firing pin is not enough by itself, because that would still allow someone to chamber a round. An observer who sees someone do that cannot determine or assume that the firing pin has been removed, and would be within reason to respond in the same way as seeing someone chamber a round into a functioning weapon. Run like hell and dial 9-1-1, or try to tackle you if he has had training in taking down someone about to commit mayhem. But that opens a different can of worms...]

I am not a lawyer either but a lot of this stuff gets determined by BATFE rather than state law, and they get to change their minds about things as often as the wind blows (and they then tend to publish notifications of their new regulations.)

So if BATFE says it's a firearm, then state law applies to it as a firearm. If they say it's NOT a firearm, then state law can still call it a deadly weapon. Example: a crazed idiot swinging around a chainsaw with the ENGINE RUNNING. No, I don't CARE if you're cosplaying "Resurrection Princess" or Ayumu from "Korewa Zombie Dess Ka."

Now, if it's a Tommy Gun (say, for Baccano?) and you see that the barrel is solid orange with no hole in the tip, then you can more reasonably infer that this is a play prop. But this is where things get cute: What happens is that ATF still considers whatever the metal part that has the serial number on it "the firearm," or "the weapon." State law would say that the assembly cannot fire, so it may not 'count' as a firearm, but if all the rest of it is an original 1928 Thompson made in West Hurley, NY and not a scratch on it - then (a) you had better have all your NFA/ATF paperwork in order and (b) what the heck are you doing with a $27,000 pristine collectible at a con!

It would still be intriguing (and safe) to have a deactivated original as part of a cosplay prop, though, and I think that it would be very intriguing if the peace-bond table can clearly see that the assembly cannot chamer a round and it's visibly obvious that the barrel is solid, that they could 'pass' a contemporary historical piece which complements someones cosplay. I seem to recall a secondary character in Trigun who has a Sten, or similar - it's got the magazine you stick in from the side.

Most of the Strike Witches carry VERY collectible rifles of WWI and WW2. One of them flies with a Boyes anti-tank rifle, and that's not only a C&R (Curio & Relic) but it's under NFA control because it's over .50cal. (it's .55cal, iirc.) We've seen a number of Yuuko's from TTGL with that gawd-awful long rifle she caries, so it wouldn't be inconceivable for a Strike Witches cosplayer to slap together a facsimile rifle using all the visible external parts but with a solid barrel, and possibly no trigger mechanism as an additional safety concern. But again, if the prop is built up from a 'real' receiver - then that thing has a 'real' serial number ... and hence the question.

[GregAtlas]

While I do say good job, there are 4 problems with the above statement. Edit: (DarkStar's statement since I just finished this post)
#1 That is for Oregon law. Washington laws are a little more strict about gun issues, though they still may have the same definition. I somewhat suspect that the recent legislation hearing that happened in Oregon stating that universities do not have the legal right to ban guns may be part of the reason k-con is remaining in Washington next year, but this is just speculation on my part.
#2 That is assuming k-con cared about the definition of a firearm. As I pointed about before, sakuracon has even banned Nerf guns which were designed to be harmless and for all we know, since k-con prides itself as the little sister of sakuracon, they may follow suit. In addition to that, k-con also already bans airsoft guns, which either use a spring to launch the projectile or compressed CO2.
#3 Having the peace-bonder staff member knowing the internal workings of a gun and how it works enough to recognize that it is inoperable.
#3 I had better not post here or there will be a flame war.

I do await what an official staff has to say about this though and hope things can be reasonable.

[GregAtlas]

@Prinz Eugen I contest that as long as there is an orange tip and the firing pin is removed it should not matter. There are plenty of prop guns and toy guns that are allowed where you can rack the slide and even if you do rack the slide, without the firing pin there is absolutely no chance the gun can go off. In addition, most pistols don't care what kind of barrel you have and will rack a round in regardless since you're not loading the bullet into the barrel. The bullet loads into the chamber of most pistols and rifles.

For a convention; using real bullets in a prop gun is not a good idea anyway unless it is specifically for a photoshoot. In my opinion, use the red snap-caps they use in the gun stores for dry firing if you want to have it like that, but I have no idea why besides for a photoshoot you would want to be waving around live ammo in a prop. Even for photoshoots there are dummy bullets with no powder in them.

[GregAtlas]

And I want to clear up that while I believe having a firearm should be allowed as per our second amendment law, rights, and responsibilities, I said what I said above because using it as a prop in the method described is quite irresponsible and is quite dangerous if it were functional with live ammo. Even if it is non-functional or even a toy, it should still be treated as if it were real with live ammunition: always pointed in a safe direction and not waving it around like a crazy person and certainly not threatening people with it. Real gun owners know that even if they are certain there is no ammo loaded and even when the gun is disassembled you always point it in a safe direction.

[LexManos]

This is not to be taken as a official statement, just what I think. Also not a lawyer so don't take my word as fact.

The issue of allowing real firearms because of the 2nd amendment. A private event/space is allowed to put into place some conditions upon people. These conditions are a voluntary contract (don't know if that is the right word) that you agree to. If you do not agree with them then you are free not to partake in the event.
Think of it this way, the 4th amendment protects us against unreasonable searches. However it is fully legal, and often enforced for special cases {like super advanced screenings}, to have as a condition of entering that movie theaters are allowed to search you for recording devices.

They can not force you to remove your firearms, but if you don't your badge can be revoked.
This is to say that they can go sofar as to deny you participation in the con, and entry into con space. (To which the hallways are not) But nothing more.

Anyways back to the prop point.
I would put this under the same as simply removing the ammo from the gun. Yes you have made it so that it can not fire and but with a rather trivial amount of effort if i'm understanding correctly. (Replacing the barrel and replacing the firing pin) it can be made functional again.

As you guys have pointed out not everyone sitting at a peace bonding table knows the inner workings of a gun well enough to know what a firing pin is let alone notice its missing. The mere fact that the hammer cocks, and releases when the trigger is pulled would be cause enough not to allow it.

Another thing to think about is insurance, having looked into insurance prices for another project, you'd be surprised how much a simple policy change can affect it. For example from said project, requiring that all users wear a helmet dropped the price by 40%. I could only imagine how the props policy factors into the con's stuff. u.u

HOWEVER!
Personally, my option is that if you've gone to such lengths to make your gun non-functional then I would approve of YOU.
I would honestly trust your INTENT and allow you to carry a real gun.
However, this is not the type of thing we can do on such a personal and dynamic bases.

There is nothing we can do to prevent a random person just walking in and shooting the place up with a real gun.
But we can do our best to make sure it isn't a attendee doing it, and getting the con into trouble

[@random]

Not speaking as staff (or as mod) since peacebond policy isn't my specialty, but I think the above is an excellent post.

~~~

_{(Same disclaimer as above.)}

I guess the real question is authenticity versus practicality.

Cosplay is about being able to have fun playing at being a character, and for some people that means feeling confident about even the little details - like that your underwear is authentic, even though no one will ever see it. But if it comes up against such considerations as safety, con rules, scaring the bejeebus out of people, going to jail over a misunderstanding, etc then IMO those considerations should win out over authenticity.

It may be someone's [I'm absolutely not talking about anyone who's posted] idea of fun or authenticity to cock the hammer on a replica, point it at someone, and pull the trigger (because they know that even though there's replica ammo visible there is no firing pin, chambered round, or propellant)... but it's at least going to scare the bejeebus out of someone, and could go a whole lot worse.

[BigGuy]

 The board has a meeting later this week and we can talk about clearing this up a bit. For now, my personal NON-OFFICIAL opinion is, if it looks so real that the Police will have an issue with it, it's probably not a good idea to have it at con.

The above statement was NOT OFFICIAL(just making sure you got that)

If a person has a super authentic prop, or a real firearm and takes it to private photoshoots not connected to con, then as long as they are following State and Federal laws have safe and legal fun.

But at con it's probably better to go with something made to be obviously fake

[Wrath-Chan19]

I was wondering about this, I have an old BB gun that my dad removed all the mechanisms and stuff inside so it can't fire anything. I was wondering if I could bring it for a cosplay, I would be smart with it. My dad taught me most of the basics of gun safety. It does not have an orange tip though

[Prinz Eugen]

The board has a meeting later this week and we can talk about clearing this up a bit. For now, my personal NON-OFFICIAL opinion is, if it looks so real that the Police will have an issue with it, it's probably not a good idea to have it at con.

The above statement was NOT OFFICIAL(just making sure you got that)

If a person has a super authentic prop, or a real firearm and takes it to private photoshoots not connected to con, then as long as they are following State and Federal laws have safe and legal fun.

But at con it's probably better to go with something made to be obviously fake

Cool stuff.

One of the topics is: what happens if something obviously looks safe/fantasy, such as the orange tip or a 'cosmic-ray' obviously non-functional barrel, (or a steam-punk decoration, or a small radar dish at the end of the wooden stock, for examples) BUT somewhere in the REST of the assembly there actually is something with a number stamped on it that would turn up 'firearm' if entered in a database. A tommy gun, but with barrel removed and replaced with a bouquet of silk flowers. This could be entertaining.

Good points to discuss, based on others' comments above are:
What-all has to be 'non-functional' in addition to obvious not-really-a-barrel-ness?
Must an external hammer be immobilized?
Must a trigger also be immobilized?
Magazine cannot detach from frame?

Anyways, good questions to kick around - I am interested to hear what the official policy decides...

[TalaRedWolf33]

Ima just add this onto what random was saying about scaring people and such with the gun. Many people, like myself, have dads or grandpas or brothers who know guns and have them around the house. I, hopefully unlike some people, have been on the recieving end of several jokes by my brother where he has taken one of his real guns and "deconstructed" it to where it wouldnt fire or hurt anyone if he pulled the trigger, and then pretended to shoot me with it. Because of that, and on top of my anxity, just seeing a real gun makes my heart go into overdrive. Such an effect may cause some to pass out or even worse, go into panic mode and have a heart attack. Kcon probably doesnt want that sort of thing to happen, because im assuming that would be a liability of some sort. So, as a safe measure, it would probably be best to build a fake gun and be wise to leave the real ones, that fire or not, at home.    Also, greg, my god youre everywhere!

[Prinz Eugen]

I think we're all on the same page about being careful about behaviour that others (maybe not in the know about a character) may find threatening, and also that most anime fans who also are firearms hobbyists to any degree tend to be more considerate about gesturing with toy weapons and props by transferring to them the cautions and good practices that surround real weapons handling.

At an event unrelated to Kumoricon, a costumed fan had an item that was not a firearm but another sort of weapon prop. By employing the same gestures one would use in SAFE HANDLING, when I held it and then returned it to him, the reaction of some others around us was that this thing REALLY MIGHT BE a dangerous item (although in this case magical/fantasy energy) to be handled with respect. This was cool - by acting out that one ought to be careful with the prop ( Be careful were you point that wizard's wand! ) - you can make it more 'real.'

Here's a possible example from Valkyria Chronicles:


Much like other alternate history shows such as Pumpkin Scissors, VC is tantalizingly intriguing in that the the weapons (among other things in the show, like vehicles, and even architecture of the towns) are inspired by real items and places of North-eastern European origins, and one fun part is picking up where they mish-mashed stuff together (in scale model railroading this is called "kit-bashing,") and especially if the combined elements come from real-world sources which were enemies of each other. Alicia above holds a 'something' which to my limited knowledge seems to be based on a German Gewehr 43 and a US Garand rifle.

This guy has a lot more of it dialed in.

If you wanted to cosplay this character or someone else in her unit, you could probably go to a gun show and find the wooden stock pieces, barrel bits, a box magazine, and the trigger group all separately, but you still might end up with a numbered receiver. With no other internal guts - plus the fact that this fictional device combines elements of two different-sized ammunition - it would be a non-functional prop even though it could be very accurately matched to the 'original' fantasy item.

[GregAtlas]

If I could afford a PS3 I would have Valkyria Chronicles by now. I love strategy RPG's. That M1 Garand is such a beautiful gun in real life too. A prime example of something you can't really make look good as a replica unless you're a master... Even then sometimes. **Edit** I know she is not holding the M1 Garand there, but there are plenty of shows and games that do use it.

If a person has a super authentic prop, or a real firearm and takes it to private photoshoots not connected to con, then as long as they are following State and Federal laws have safe and legal fun.

What is considered con ground? It was mentioned in another thread that photoshoots that we tend to have at the con are not considered part of the con as they are private groups, but I am wishing to know a clarification.

I would also like to note that a wooden (or other materials) "fake" replica sword is a whole lot more dangerous than a non-functioning gun. Not that I want to draw attention to get those banned, but they have a code of conduct while not being restricted with the exception of needing to #1 not be sharp enough to cut #2 be in their sheaths at all times.

I just looked at the convention policy page on the current policy and believe it explains things pretty well with the exception of the definition of a replica weapon. (bolded to stand out as the primary concern of this post)

"All bladed items must be kept in their sheaths at all times in the Convention Space. Weapons should never be waved around in a manner that may be construed as use of the weapon (this is considered brandishing).
Gun replica or other replica projectile weapons should not be pointed at anyone at any time. Replica pistols need to remain in a holster; replica rifles need to be slung.

Brandishing a weapon in the Convention Space, or in nearby spaces such as other public hotel areas or parking lots, may result in immediate removal from the convention. Keep in mind, police will assume all drawn weapons are functional, and will act accordingly. If you are unsure whether your weapon is acceptable in the Convention Space, please ask in the Kumoricon Yojimbo Office or ask at the Info Booth.

Exotic weapons will be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. Do not bring weapons that Kumoricon staff cannot tell are fake from ten feet away.

Certain props are not allowed within the Convention Space. These include, but are not limited to:

    * Airsoft or projectile weapons
    * Live (sharp enough to cut) steel
    * Props wide enough or long enough to inhibit flow of traffic
    * Replica weapons that do not comply with state or federal law
    * Paddles (all varieties—including “yaoi” or “yuri” paddles)
    * Props which impede personal or public safety
"

Under the rules that were set for this year I would assume making the weapon non-functional and having an orange tip would be enough. The only legality issue is if someone is brandishing, which is covered in the con rules already, and if someone were to own a real firearm they had darn well already realize that brandishing in that manner is a serious problem.

Hmm... Actually, looking through the rules this year I don't even see mention of an orange tip like I'm used to seeing in the past. I may have overlooked it though.

[TalaRedWolf33]

Well, reading through what greg posted, i think he pretty much answered this whole threads question.  If the staff cant tell the prop is fake from ten feet away, dont bring it. And i think that goes for all related questions, like whether or not using parts of real guns or whatever. If youre using real parts of the gun, even if they arent functional, if they look real to staff then you shouldnt bring it.

[GregAtlas]

Tala, normally that is the purpose of the orange tip. What needs to be done here is have a definition on what makes it a replica that is allowed. I'm not sure a gun is considered "exotic" either, but either way, it is a case by case basis.

[TalaRedWolf33]

I would think that the staff would agree with the set rule though, reguardless. Because whats stopping someone from putting an orange tip onto a real gun. If i saw someone with a gun, even with an orange tip, and that gun looked real enough to the staff that they have to question its making, then i would say dont bring it. Yes, i understand that some people go all out with their cosplays and have the need to have every little bit be as real as possible, but when that need goes against the rules, then it shouldnt be a question of whether  or not you should bring a gun that looks real. The  issue should be whether or not your need is greater than the happiness and tolerance of the staff, whom without, we wouldnt have kumoricon.

[GregAtlas]

That is what the peace bonding table is there for Tala... They check the item in question out and we are wondering what it takes to make it a valid prop. Peace bonders also zip tie the trigger back like they did my friend's guns as well. At that point staff and con-goers trust that the peace bonder did their job. If someone is "brandishing" like an idiot then ask a staff member to check it out. Keep in mind though that false reports should not be tolerated either as that can be a criminal offense (as in jail time) as well. If someone were to start opening fire do you really think you would know about it before it happens? Do you think they would go to the trouble of painting their gun a bright color that could be easily found and make it more difficult for them to get away, assuming they even plan to get away?

Whether made out of metal, wood, or plastic, (looks can be deceiving) the ground rules need a clearer definition. It would also greatly help if the peace bonder knew what they were looking at too, though I am not saying previous staff did not know. We just want to know where to draw the line since it is just as possible to make a working gun out of wood or PVC, that yes, can in fact cause serious harm. I wish I could listen in on the meeting mentioned above and perhaps ask questions in person. Questions that might not normally be asked and would be leaving things open for more confusion.

It has been mentioned earlier in this thread about the right to bear arms and the liability of such rights for instances like that kind of story from happening, and I would personally like to keep that out of this topic from now on because that deserves a topic unto itself. I apologize for mentioning some of it as well. I believe this topic is more for finding out what it does take to be approved so that things can be the safest as possible. That is my take on this topic anyway, but ultimately I think it is up to Prinz Eugen (and probably any mods) if he wishes to let the topic he created go off topic.

[Prinz Eugen]

Heck - I'll 'follow' the topic where ever people are interested in taking it.

Personally I don't think it's an RKBA ( i.e, Right to Keep & Bear Arms / 2nd Amendment) issue because the cosplayer is not intending the prop for a need of actual defense of self or others from imminent harm.

If anything it's like @Random's point about getting an undergarment right even if no one sees it. (Or the intervening layers of a 6- or 12- layer ceremonial kimono. No one will see all the seams, but the wearer *knows* she got it right!)

In this case, we are talking about a non functional agglomeration of firearms parts, and especially a mish-mash that looks cool all together - again - this is as a prop - and part of this has already been answered:
a) Staff has to be able to tell it's not capable of being used as a firearm. That can mean an orange tip, or any other means that people can identify it as a non-firing prop from a reasonable closeness to it.
b) Partially because I have not personally cosplayed a character who needed a firearm to complete the costume, I was not aware that nowadays staff is actually immobilizing triggers at the peace bond table, but I think this is a Good Thing. [TM]

The question involves a bunch of pieces of wood or plastic combined with some metal pieces, and (this is the clarification we need from staff) ... with the 'Given' that a device is:
1. non-functional to such a degree that is is visually apparant from an appropriate distance that it is a non-functioning prop to an average person not necessarily familiar with firearm mechanisms, but
2. at least one or some of the pieces had been originally made to comprise or accessorize a real firearm, and
3. (for this question) at least one of the pieces in (2) has a serial number which in its past history has been placed on the part by a real firearms manufacturer, past or present.

That's what we may need a determination to be made by staff. It's a complicated question about a fairly specific assembly, but within the context of safe and enjoyable handling such as with any other facsimile weapon such as swords, axes, bows, hammers, scythes, etc.

[GregAtlas]

Personally I don't think it's an RKBA ( i.e, Right to Keep & Bear Arms / 2nd Amendment) issue because the cosplayer is not intending the prop for a need of actual defense of self or others from imminent harm.

Exactly. That deserves its own thread if we were going to talk about that and even though it is a sensitive topic I hope it is created since the k-con rules somewhat contradict themselves there.

[@random]

Politics are always welcome in the politics thread... but if you want to create a new thread under Off-Topic for gun rights specifically and post a link to it, that's fine too (as long as it stays civil).

[GregAtlas]

Personally I have to know for a couple of my cosplays as well because if it is going to become a bannable offense because a prop that looks like a gun is made out of metal then I can't wear the entire cosplay because that is integrated into the suit. When I will be building it I would have no way to make it functional because I am no gun smith, but I refuse to make it out of plastic or polyvinyl chloride because I want the suit to be as authentic as possible.... even if it means walking around in 95 degree weather wearing 80-130 lbs.

Even if I did make it out of pvc, the peacebonding table needs to know how if it it is functional or not since as stated earlier that it is possible to still have even those materials work in that way and we need a clearer definition on what k-con would allow or not allow.

[GregAtlas]

Politics are always welcome in the politics thread... but if you want to create a new thread under Off-Topic for gun rights specifically and post a link to it, that's fine too (as long as it stays civil).

Yeah, I hear you random... I don't think it is a topic for the general "politics" section and personally I don't want to be the one to make the thread... at least not yet...

By the way, I hope the meeting mentioned above will have a lawyer to talk to to point out what laws and liabilities k-con really has to worry about instead of just assuming. Maybe even have a liaison from the police department as well.

[DarkStar]

Here's an idea, if the feds, Washington, and Oregon wouldn't consider it a firearm if the trigger was removed, why not require all gun props just have a trigger removed? This is something that could be visually inspected at the peace bonding table without any "expert" knowledge.

Just an idea...

[Prinz Eugen]

Here's an idea, if the feds, Washington, and Oregon wouldn't consider it a firearm if the trigger was removed,

Good point, but gun laws aren't always logical; there's often always some other political reason in the wings.

For the Feds, they view 'the weapon' as the thing with the number on it - and ALL the rest of the parts are unregulated.

One guy REALLY got ATF's panties in a bunch a few years ago when he collected all the unregulated parts of a standard .30cal M1 machine gun - the registered part is the right side plate of the riveted metal box frame - and mounted the thing sideways, and hand-fed a belt of .30cal ammo into the opening under the top cover, and vee-oh-la,** the thing fired full-auto.
(Note that this is very unsafe - if the box frame is missing one side then who knows WHAT can start falling out the open side . . . plus it's almost like feeding your hand into a running blender - NOT recommended!)

This also gets cute with supressors (silencers) because the forms call it a 'firearm' even though it's just a hollow tube with elaborate innards. But it still says 'firearm' on the paperwork...


Anyways, the original question has to do with if you have the one innard from a even a long-ago disassembled rifle - and that's the metal part you want to assemble wood bits and other things to, so that you have a realistic looking alternate-history cosplay prop, that is NON functional... then what happens if that one number happens to have been 'real...'

** PS: Don't you love when people accidentallly write 'Viola' for 'Voila!' Googling for this error is amusing...

[kylite]

Here's an idea, if the feds, Washington, and Oregon wouldn't consider it a firearm if the trigger was removed, why not require all gun props just have a trigger removed? This is something that could be visually inspected at the peace bonding table without any "expert" knowledge.

Just an idea...

Just a quick answer to this one.

The reason we ask that airsoft be "bricked' thus fileld with something" is because a trigger can be easily removed and esily readded to turn a prop into a live gun. and Personally I know someone out there is gonna try to do this at some point and I will be there to make sure it does not happen at kcon.

[Drauska]

ok so here is a silly question.  I plan on cosplaying an engineer that carries around a large wrench.  I found a real wrench that is quite heavy  at my mom's house and was planning on borrowing it for the con.  Is that considered live steel? 

[BigGuy]

No, a large wrench would not be considered live steel. It would need to be peacebonded and you are responsible for it, but it is not banned.

[Drauska]

Cool...thanks Chair!!

[DarkStar]

The reason we ask that airsoft be "bricked' thus fileld with something" is because a trigger can be easily removed and esily readded to turn a prop into a live gun. and Personally I know someone out there is gonna try to do this at some point and I will be there to make sure it does not happen at kcon.

Sure, but you could even easier just use an unbricked airsoft gun with a zip tie on it. Personally, it would make more sense to require the trigger to be removed (and feel free to require the rest be bricked too). But then again, this is about firearms which is completely different from airsoft.

[GregAtlas]

I believe airsofts are in the same category personally. The quality they make them at is such a high quality level these days that it is hard to distinguish since they even try to match the weight and balance of their real counterparts. I can understand having them non-functional as well because (unlike nerf projectiles) they are somewhat hard to tell where they are coming from and these days if you get a high powered one they can still hurt even non-vital areas.

Not meaning to make this off topic, but I think it would be cool to have a organized nerf fight in the park event.

[Raveen92]

What is the policy on handcuffs? I want to cosplay Zenigata, and he has about 14 pair handcuffs in his trench coat. I wouldn't misuse them, and have all 14 of them peacebonded come 2012, If I'm allowed.

[BlackHat]

I would like to know the policy on an obvious water gun/bubble blaster. Do I need to get that peacebonded?

[DarkStar]

What is the policy on handcuffs? I want to cosplay Zenigata, and he has about 14 pair handcuffs in his trench coat. I wouldn't misuse them, and have all 14 of them peacebonded come 2012, If I'm allowed.

Unless you're throwing them around, handcuffs aren't weapons. As such, since they aren't weapons or could be mistaken for weapons it would be about as useful to peacebond them as peacebonding a zip tie.

[chelseahavoc]

i actualy have a question somewhat regarding this. i have a black airsoft gun that has broken and if it gets cocked it will break apart. so could i just fill the clip with glue or something? i just dont want the piece bonder to potential break my prop by seeing if they can cock it or something....

[kalagei]

I would like to know the policy on an obvious water gun/bubble blaster. Do I need to get that peacebonded?

Yes. The peacebond is a way for the con staff to know that you have agreed to our prop weapon policies, and signed it in at the peacebonding table. Part of this agreement would be that you are not shooting bubbles and water at con goers, and not making a mess around the hotel.

[kalagei]

I would like to know the policy on an obvious water gun/bubble blaster. Do I need to get that peacebonded?

Yes. The peacebond is a way for the con staff to know that you have agreed to our prop weapon policies, and signed it in at the peacebonding table. Part of this agreement would be that you are not shooting bubbles and water at con goers, and not making a mess around the hotel.

I'm actually going to go ahead and look like an idiot on this one, glad I checked. I believe that a water gun may be considered a projectile weapon which is addressed in the convention policies.

"No members will be permitted to carry any kind of functional projectile weapon"

Now, I can't say for sure that a water gun is considered a projectile weapon, so I'll look into that.

So my revised statement is... If the prop is not deemed to be in violation of the weapons policy on the grounds of it being able to launch water at a distance, and being construed as a projectile weapon, then yes it would require a peace bond.

[fluffpuffgerbil]

I don't know if this has been covered already or not, but I bought two really cheap airsoft(like, $1.50 a gun cheap), I believe, pistols and hollowed them out and glued them so the only moving part's the trigger. The things are totally useless, and I know I'd have to get them peace-tied, but I'd like to know if they're allowed at con?

If needed, I can even just glue the trigger so it's not moving either

[Spontaneous]

Ok, I hate to bring up an older topic but I have a gun question too. I have read the Kumoricon weapon's policy and it specifically says that "No members will be permitted to carry any kind of functional projectile weapon." It also says no "Airsoft or projectile weapons"

This may be a really stupid question (sorry, I literally have no knowledge about guns), but what counts as an airsoft gun? I know it says no functional projectile weapons, but do these cheap toy guns that fire darts count as weapons? Do they count as airsoft? I'm talking about dollar store cheap that you can easily break so that they can't fire anything at all. Kinda like this



Yes, it fire projectiles...but is it really going to count as a weapon, especially if disabled?

[Sorimatsu]

this was a response to a question about a completely disabled airsoft gun being used as a prop.

"Mr. Steinhauer,
 
Thank you for attending kumoricon and thank you for asking before con.
My policy on projectile weapons is the following:
Either, it cant fire worth noting (a bow made out of foam and string for example)
or it has been permanently disabled.  This means that the weapon cannot be loaded and ready to fire.
My personal favorite solution to this is either gut and fill with epoxy or just fill the moving parts with epoxy.
 
If that works for you, please bring your prop.  Otherwise, please email me with a little more detail on what you plan to do and we can discuss it.
 
Thank you,
 
-Tank
Yojimbo 1"

But i have a question that i would prefer the opinions of the forum goers for, in light of all the recent happenings related to guns, would bringing a disabled airsoft replica be a concern, and/or should i look to other options such as painted nerf guns.

sorry for the wording of that i couldn't exactly figure out how to word that.

[GregAtlas]

But i have a question that i would prefer the opinions of the forum goers for, in light of all the recent happenings related to guns, would bringing a disabled airsoft replica be a concern, and/or should i look to other options such as painted nerf guns.

sorry for the wording of that i couldn't exactly figure out how to word that.

My opinion, though, I am not staff and my opinion means very little here unfortunately; is that as long as it follows the rules for being a prop, then it should be allowed no matter what it looks like. A weapon is what it is no matter if there was a shooting and it shouldn't be viewed differently before or after one. It was the choice of that person to use those tools in the way that he did. I believe the con protocols on peace bonding are strong enough assuming it is a non-functional prop. Also keep in mind that just because something doesn't look like a steriotypical weapon that you're taught to fear doesn't mean it isn't a weapon. (A bottle of Alcohol can be used as a weapon in many different ways for one of many examples.)