Plans to make 2010 even better

[RemSaverem]

I agree that the Ops Director would logically be involved in this discussion, but I would not think it to be logical to hold without conferring with the convention's attorney, in case there are issues of legal liability involved.

Absolutely. Unfortunately we must remember that legal trouble could make Kumoricon go bye bye, so we are all very careful about liability. Its great to talk about what we'd like to see happen, but we always need to do the legal reality check.

IMHO the idea of off-site escorts will be a no-go, legally. I'd love for it to be viable, but I think that the con will likely have to not be involved even in facilitating off-site escorts online, lest G-d forbid some predator type take advantage of the info therein.

[CassieR]

Yeah, I agree, its going to be very tricky, and possibly legally a problem.  Thats why I'd like to look into helping attendees set up something, or even maybe designate a buddy point. But it would have to be very clear that this was at the attendees own risk, etc. 

Maybe we need to just start encouraging attendees to use the message board to make new friends before the con, so they have a group to hang out with.

[kylite]

please ntoe that I did say we would be willing to volunteer, not as con staff but as safe people. were just that nice

[RemSaverem]

please ntoe that I did say we would be willing to volunteer, not as con staff but as safe people. were just that nice

that's sweet

[murder_of_raven]

please ntoe that I did say we would be willing to volunteer, not as con staff but as safe people. were just that nice

that's sweet

Yes, definitely agreed. Maybe if this all ends up falling through I'll take one of you up on the offer on an individual level... although /hopefully/ I'll be in a hotel room next year so maybe this won't be an issue for me. Maybe.

[xcthulhux]

the escort service could be something set up in the dealers hall.
have scheduled times for volunteer escorts to take you to your car, the max, the executive tower, or whatever.
they just have to sign up for it ahead of time, depending on what time they want to go to said place.

[MichaelEvans]

The route between the two hotel buildings is -quite- short.  I believe an alternate solution might suffice for that area.  As it is a public place, IIRC, it is perfectly legal to produce video records of all activity in that area.  Simply doing that and posting that the area is monitored by camera might be enough to keep anyone remotely sane from even groping someone else.  Obviously there is no defense against the insane; only offense, which would now be easy to mount in a court of law.

[Animeman73]

ATTENTION KUMORICON STAFF!!! I, Animeman73 again offer up an ultimate challenge to you! A couple years back I believe it was at the Vancouver Hilton you guys had a panel called Whose Line is it Anyway, a sort of improv game. Well my challenege to you is you can make it (18+) or whatever at your discretion but do you think you could bring that back? Or if I'm mistaken could you do a panel or live event involving that? Well, what do you say?

[AllyKat]

I would love to run a "Whose Anime Is It Anyway" Panel for the 18+ age group if enough people are interested. I am a big fan of/well trained in
improv and comedy sports activities and this could be totally fun in an anime style!

~Allykat

[RobinSena]

Can we please, please (with sugar on top), please try to get a discount on the hotel parking this year?  The three other hotels I've stayed at for K-con have all given us discounts for parking, or at least had free lots we could take over, even if it meant a block walk.  $40+ dollars (or having to move your car everyday) last year for parking was/is rather ridiculous.  I'd think that at least a flat $20 would be more fair and with far less price gouging.   Please? =^_^=

[AllyKat]

I am looking into a parking program, but here is the problem;

The actual parking lot that the Hotel controls for guests and such, is where we have the Exhibitors Hall.
Meaning their parking is over run by our fun fun dealers! We use parking structures that work WITH the hotel, but not all of the surrounding ones (The one just up the street from the main tower) are actually owned by hilton I believe.

What I AM going to try to do is see if I can work a deal out with smart park... I'm not sure how I'd go about this, it'd feel like you'd have to show your badge or something in order to get a "Kumoricon" Discount, but smart park is much cheaper than hotel parking at any rate, although you will NOT have in/out option.

I will probably know more on the parking situation as we get closer to con date.

~Allykat

[Animeman73]

One of the advanatges of being legally blind is I don't have to worry about parking. I can just take the bus or have my retired professional driver stepfather drop me off at the hotel. I know it may seem like a hassle but I find you can save a bundle on parking if you get a life and/or take the bus. You can't go wrong with Tri-Met.

[Sutie]

I am looking into a parking program, but here is the problem;

The actual parking lot that the Hotel controls for guests and such, is where we have the Exhibitors Hall.
Meaning their parking is over run by our fun fun dealers! We use parking structures that work WITH the hotel, but not all of the surrounding ones (The one just up the street from the main tower) are actually owned by hilton I believe.

Hate to be the downer but.... doesn't the con recive funds from the venders renting out space? So to put it simple it's costing us, the attendees, to have the venders there.

[AllyKat]

No matter which way you look at it, something is going to be problematic somewhere in this situation,
there is no "Perfect" solution to the parking problem when you get right down to it, because it will never
be free parking right next to people's room's. There will undoubtably be problems. The joy of having such
a central downtown location is the bane of people who drive's existence. But, could you imagine eliminating
the vendors and AA from the convention? Less money = less convention fun, and also... No vendors?
Seriously! There are solutions, and like I said, I am working on them, but everyone is not going to be 100%
happy with whatever outcome is selected. To have a convention anywhere, you make concessions and it
isn't always happy, but its the border-land where things work and are better than they could be that you
have to work at.

Tri-met is a GREAT option for ANYONE considering staying at the hotel all the days and who lives nearby the
portland metro. Most cities nearby have a smaller less frequent bus system that eventually connects to the
trimet system. I can ride from McMinnville to Portland without too much difficulty, and if you do a dance, you
could get to Portland from Eugene on some sort of mass transit! Of course I understand for cosplayers this
posses a challenge, and no one likes challenges when trying to get to a convention, but when push comes to
shove, we all know Portland is not a car friendly city, and we can't expect that to change just for our convention.

What we can do is try and work the system to get us a better deal! And I am taking that angle on the task!

I am not 100% sure what point you are trying to make with the fact that it costs convention go-ers money to
have the vendors in the parking/exhibit hall area Sutie, but the way I see it, as a con go-er last year... EVERYTHING
about the convention cost me money... it isn't free, but it's also not for profit. Everything costs money and the
convention has to pay for everything else... there isn't any greed in the budget, it's all about making next years
convention better. With that in mind we do the best we can.

~Allykat

[Sutie]

Oh no, it's not your falt at all. Portland is not a car owner friendly city. I guess after three years living up here in the north west, I'm still holding a grudge against it.
I can understand that your job is hard, especially figuring out the hotel and parking situations. I have family that work with those things with a different anime con and I hear about all the stress you guys (board of directors) go through. I thank you for your work and looking into what you can. Personally, I can't figure out a solution that makes everyone happy and how you had it last year looks to be best. It still sucks that 40 bucks is blown on parking alone.

[AllyKat]

No Doubt! 40 buck is crazy! which is why I can hopefully convince some smart park nearby that we will give them a full lot all weekend if they give us a discount... but we will see how that goes! ^_^

~Ally

[RobinSena]

I personally (and the others in my carpool) don't care if we have to walk a couple blocks from the parking lot, if it's a much better deal - that's what is was a couple years ago, when we had that awesome huge lot of free parking. =^_^=

[AllyKat]

you wouldn't happen to remember what hotel that was at that year? Or even just what year that
was?

~Allykat

[Rathany]

I am looking into a parking program, but here is the problem;

The actual parking lot that the Hotel controls for guests and such, is where we have the Exhibitors Hall.
Meaning their parking is over run by our fun fun dealers! We use parking structures that work WITH the hotel, but not all of the surrounding ones (The one just up the street from the main tower) are actually owned by hilton I believe.

Hate to be the downer but.... doesn't the con recive funds from the venders renting out space? So to put it simple it's costing us, the attendees, to have the venders there.

Dealer's Hall is one of the major attractions of a convention.  And, actually, we usually break even on it. 

[Evaldas]

you wouldn't happen to remember what hotel that was at that year? Or even just what year that
was?

~Allykat

I think she was the Vancouver Hilton in 2007 that had the huge free parking lot next to the hotel. I remember because I had to get there early so I could get a spot.

[RobinSena]

you wouldn't happen to remember what hotel that was at that year? Or even just what year that
was?

~Allykat

I think she was the Vancouver Hilton in 2007 that had the huge free parking lot next to the hotel. I remember because I had to get there early so I could get a spot.

I had to go find my notes, but yes, it was the 2007 hotel.  The free parking lot was a block over and around the corner, something kind of like:
[P][ ]
[ ][H]
because I remember having to go around a random building and over to get to the hotel.  But that was an awesome one, I loved having the anniversary party with all of the people dressed up in Victorian outfits, and us in our cosplay there at the same time, plus the food was yummy

[murder_of_raven]

I remember having to go around a random building and over to get to the hotel.  But that was an awesome one, I loved having the anniversary party with all of the people dressed up in Victorian outfits, and us in our cosplay there at the same time, plus the food was yummy

Oh wow! I remember that too! That was absolutely fabulous. I know there are a maelstrom of reasons and such that we're stuck in Hilton for now, but I really think that hotel was exactly the /type/ of venue that was right for Kcon. We should shoot for something like that next time.

[AllyKat]

If we want to stay a Portland Convention... we have to give in to the fact that parking will be
at a premium... but, if you show real support (AKA more voices) say what you really want is
a Vancouver... more, shall we say, "suburban" Convention... the board will start looking at that
more seriously.

Right now, I'm getting two different stories, attendees want Convention Center, but they also
want the simplicity of a cheap, city hotel. Vancouver provides a lot of space to get cheaper
ammenities... but they don't have the big venues and the location to compete with the metropolis
of Portland's downtown area....

In the end, that is my quest... the ever illusive happy medium.

~Allykat

[murder_of_raven]

Hate to post again so soon, but I'd like to say I am actually equally happy with both ideas. I think not all of us are too hard to please, I just really really do not think we should ever be downtown again, if we have a choice. This is my only preference.

[AllyKat]

That sounds like a feeling a lot of people have... but hey, who knows? This year you might be pleasantly suprised by the AWESOME FUN TIMES we have cooking for everyone!

*Can't contain her excitement for Kumoricon 2010*

I have a feeling the board is near the point of killing me over my way to excited-ness!

LOL

~Allykat

[sandrobotticelli]

Hate to post again so soon, but I'd like to say I am actually equally happy with both ideas. I think not all of us are too hard to please, I just really really do not think we should ever be downtown again, if we have a choice. This is my only preference.

I would have to agree. True, there are a lot of places downtown that are larger for the size of our convention, but personally it can get really crowded really fast. Being in the middle of downtown was kind of a pain, mostly because there were so many of us cosplayers running around and I heard a lot of people who weren't attending the convention complaining about us taking up the sidewalk and I felt there was more pressure for us to stay inside as much as possible. I know it's asking for a lot, and it's probably impossible, but I think it would be great if we could get a place next to a park or something, that way we can roam about and won't upset as many people who are trying to walk along the sidewalks and yet there is not the pressure of having to stay inside either. Not to mention I just generally really like hanging out in parks.

[The_Panda]

I know it's been discussed, but i need to project the thoughts of more than a few Eugene con goers, and some Californians, too.

1. This year, with the dance situation, a lot of us were all appalled and more than a bit upset. We were looking forward to that so much, and none of us got to. In fact, we were encouraged to go, and then told we couldn't, (which we kinda guessed when we looked at the clock and it was 11:45.) Anyone who is coming from Eugene this year who is a minor is looking forward to a dance. I myself have never gone to the bands, though I was kinda interested in seeing the Slants. But I still have not seen a band in my going on three years. I would take a dance, (Rave or Masquerade.)

2. I know that the location is just right across the river, but I (and other Eugenians) really would prefer it stay in Portland. If we can go to the convention hall, awesome. If we stay at the Hilton, fine. If we go back to the Doubletree, even better. (I loved that park so much.) But if it is at all possible to keep it in portland, the better. Maybe not to say that we won't come to Kumoricon should that happen, but it will certainly make it harder.

I know this isn't really offering anything useful at the moment, but if these things are possible, it would make the experience that much better. (And less complicated.)

[AllyKat]

2. I know that the location is just right across the river, but I (and other Eugenians) really would prefer it stay in Portland. If we can go to the convention hall, awesome. If we stay at the Hilton, fine. If we go back to the Doubletree, even better. (I loved that park so much.) But if it is at all possible to keep it in portland, the better. Maybe not to say that we won't come to Kumoricon should that happen, but it will certainly make it harder.

What location? I am confused? What are we talking about here? If you are referring to anything in Vancouver,
exactly what makes the 8 mile difference so much of a hindrance? I'm not upset, just confused. I don't want
to miss an obvious issue with a Vancouver hotel option, if we put Vancouver hotels on the table as an option.

On the subject of dances vs bands; I think this issue has, for the most part been resolved. There isnt going to be
anything we can do about the curfew, but most likely their should be a way for dancing to happen for those
loverly kids and minors who can't stay about the con after late! More details to follow from prog eventually.

We luuurve input. I just want to make sure I'm getting the most out of the suggestions to make future conventions
better. However;

Lets remember this thread was for the 2010 year, not future years. We cannot do anything about hotel stuff
this year. We are at the Downtown Hilton for the 2010 con year, no ifs ands or buts.

~Allykat

[Hazuza]

Oh yeah, I dunno if this is the right place, but...

Is there any possibility of splitting the Artist Alley into two parts this year; One on the second floor and one in the exhibitors hall?

I heard that having it on the second floor was considered last year, but there would be space for more artists if it was in the exhibitors' hall. (of course, I might've heard wrong) You could charge more for spaces on the second floor, since artists there would be able to set up/take down tables whenever they wish, and they would get much more exposure.
_{And I know I'm not the only one who'd love Nekopan being at the center of the con *u*}

[AllyKat]

Oh yeah, I dunno if this is the right place, but...

Is there any possibility of splitting the Artist Alley into two parts this year; One on the second floor and one in the exhibitors hall?

I heard that having it on the second floor was considered last year, but there would be space for more artists if it was in the exhibitors' hall. (of course, I might've heard wrong) You could charge more for spaces on the second floor, since artists there would be able to set up/take down tables whenever they wish, and they would get much more exposure.
_{And I know I'm not the only one who'd love Nekopan being at the center of the con *u*}

Logistically off the top of my head that doesn't seem feasible, I know some of the artists would have a hard time dealing with the lack of secuirty and numerical safety with being stranded on the reg floor (which I am assuming is what you are talking about) Also, remember space is a premium everywhere at this convention, and setting up tables
decreases out capacity dramatically. Every stand, table and chair costs us space and we have to justify it to all the people who WONT be able to get into the convention because we ran out of room. Sometimes doing what's right isnt always what we want.

But the idea of moving things and creating more oppourtunities for sellers is certainly an option I can understand, and something I'm sure thats being mulled by our Deallers hall people (or will be when we get some).

~Allykat

[Hazuza]

I understand The whole place last year was extremely crowded, so I can see how it might be a problem...

However, IIRC I remember there being a few tables lined up along the halls, aside from those for reg and the info booth(s), that were for the most part unused. What were those for, might I ask? o-o

[Serika]

Hey, just want to pitch in with issues I've seen and all that.  I'm not sure if staff is still reading this so far in, but I hope so! 

A. Location in general - I absolutely loved the location we were in itself.  I never felt endangered in any way.  Things seemed safe.  I didn't stay downtown because I live in a suburb about 20 minutes out of downtown Portland, but transportation wasn't any more difficult than it normally was.  Walking around was easy.  Going to get food and going out to eat and all that was easy.  Other than the mall, there were a lot of options for food and restaurants and hang outs.  I was even able to organize a private party with some other cosplayers at a REAL RESTAURANT!!! in which we were loud and honestly a little obnoxious, and as far as I could tell the staff didn't have a problem with us, they were incredibly nice... It was a few blocks away from the hotel (in a slightly trashier locale, though certainly not...82nd), and while we were in a group of around 8 people (only two guys!!) I'm not sensing the danger and hostility some of you have expressed.  When people commented on us, we talked to them if they seemed kind.  If they were creepy or weird, we ignored them and continued on.  And that's how you avoid creeps. 
In general, I love Portland.  I feel like we should keep the con in the Portland area. 

B. Photoshoot locations - Guys, the waterfront is like, two or three blocks away.  Sure, there's no park, but how authentic is a park (full of cosplayers and bums, i might add) as a backdrop for photoshoots?  But anyways, the waterfront had a lovely plaza, fountain, the river itself, a dock full of boats, classier, more "elegant" restaurant areas, and a tonnnn of other locations.  There really were a handful of options, it just took a little research in advance. 

C. The hotel - Yeah, there were a lot of issues.  Not much more to add here that hasn't already been touched on.  I guess the biggest issues for me were elevators, crowding, and just general confusion about what to do and where to go at times.  Info desk was helpful in the times I talked to them.  I wasn't a fan, and if we had a choice I wouldn't recommend this venue again, but for another year I can stick it out for my favorite convention. <3 Escalators weren't an issue for me once we were able to treat them as stairs, though that does bring up the point of the stairs themselves... Um, I couldn't really find them, haha.  I mean, I did eventually, but it was still confusing and YES, more signs would be nice.  I just kind of had to feel around and open every door until things turned out right.  It was also kind of difficult to keep track of what floor we were on while in there.  The faded numbers were difficult to see and this is more of a hotel issue than a con issue; some kind of extra coat of paint on the doors(or wherever the numbers were) would be fantastic. 

D. Hotel staff - Got yelled at a couple times, like everyone else.  Not too bad, though... It definitely wasn't ideal, but being told I had to go in a total U-turn to get to the same lobby ten feet away the way I was going was a little weird.  I know it's frustrating for staff to explain their, um, reasoning again and again but if we could just get an explanation for WHY what we're doing is wrong (even a sign would suffice!) then I think it'll help us understand why this way is right, that way is wrong.  If this makes sense.  I can clarify if necessary. 

E. Artist Alley.  I sold in the artist alley.  Artist alley was cut off in a dead end.  I was in the dead end.  At least half of the people coming by my booth just got frustrated upon seeing my boothmate's handmade signs reading "NOT AN EXIT" and exasperatedly stormed off in an attempt to figure out where to go. 
First of all, WHY WAS THERE A DEAD END?  That was just an awful set up.  The AA coordinator (I'm so sorry, I'm terrible with names and can't remember hers... I'm sorry!!!) was INCREDIBLY WONDERFUL AND HELPFUL AND KIND.  She made the whole experience a little bit better, but really, why was there a dead end?  And I hate to be a little... rude here, but WHY were the two booths at the entrance two of the most popular artists that frequently sell in the AA(Neolucky, as well as Kim Madison's custom sculptures)?  I realize this may not have been intentional, but if we absolutely needed a dead end, could at least one of them be thrown into the back end, to encourage traffic to circle throughout the WHOLE AA rather than reaching their destination and just turning around?  I do feel like I missed our on a lot of the customers I could have had, which is disappointing considering I did pay money for supplies, stock, registration and the booth itself. 
We absolutely need to have a circle going, with two or more ways to get into the AA section, rather than just a cut-off. 
Another issue was entering the exhibitors hall/AA space altogether.  Originally that garage door was opened, and then suddenly closed up, and I never really understood why.  Was it because of the line or whatever? (If so, I have some suggestions, though I'm not sure if they're realistic since I don't really know the inner workings of the Hilton.) I wish it had been kept this way, rather than being opened up onto the street like it was eventually changed to.  I know this encouraged more flow for the people who knew of the exhibitors area...  However, at the same time, I've heard a lot of people weren't even aware there was an exhibitors area.  Period. 
On the other hand, I did really appreciate having an electrical outlet, and again, the AA coordinator.  She was soooo helpful and while it was clear she was stressed towards the last couple weeks leading up to the con, once we were actually there in person she was fabulous.  I could not possibly have asked for more from her.  Having an outlet was great because I got to have a fan running the whole time, and my computer hooked up for visual references for commissions. 

...um, yeah, I'm not really sure how to wrap this up.  I hope that this is at least read and considered, and I'm more than happy to offer suggestions if you need them regarding anything I've mentioned! 

[murder_of_raven]

...um, yeah, I'm not really sure how to wrap this up.  I hope that this is at least read and considered, and I'm more than happy to offer suggestions if you need them regarding anything I've mentioned!  

*Ahem* I don't mean to be like this but... did you c+p an old post you made? Because I swear I've read this post in its entirety and even replied to segments of it. And we had the extensive discussion on why there was a dead-end in Artist Alley? I'm feeling a little bit crazy to be honest; I did a search with the forum's built in search function and it didn't pull anything up so now I really am wondering...

Edit: What started as casual criticism has turned into genuine bewilderment. Does anybody remember this or a /very/ similar post in the.... Oooooh! I understand what happened now! You must've posted this in the 2009 Criticism thread which was then not archived... Well, if that's the case I can understand the direct c+p but I think it would've been nice of you to revise it based on some of the many many replies you got. I also think deleting that thread was a bad move on whoever made it; from a detractor's PoV it looks like you are hiding criticism and from someone like me who just doesn't want a repeat of the mistakes made last year it prevents easy access to what I considered an almost encyclopedic collection of suggestions (if I remember correctly it was thousands of posts long and discussed a huge number of issues).

[Serika]

...Um, I just typed that up last night, thanks.  I may have posted a similar critique-type thing awhile ago, but I would have remembered an "extensive discussion." Don't just assume I copy and pasted and how horrible of me (because people HAVE been saying similar things for awhile, just read this entire thread for that.  Not to mention I reference previous posts in this specific topic in my post), I just wanted to make sure that this far in the game people still remembered some of the issues, and offering YES, here's yet another person's comments about their con experience. 

And regarding the AA in particular, I've *heard* there have been discussions, but I have not actually *seen* them. (As in, Kim told me she and the AA coordinator had talked about some of the issues briefly and "something was being done.") Maybe I'm just not looking in the right place, but if you're referencing some huge long discussion that I was apparently a part of, can you please link me in some way?  Or is this the deleted topic (that, again, I have no recollection of making a giant post in)? 

[JeffT]

I also think deleting that thread was a bad move on whoever made it; from a detractor's PoV it looks like you are hiding criticism and from someone like me who just doesn't want a repeat of the mistakes made last year it prevents easy access to what I considered an almost encyclopedic collection of suggestions (if I remember correctly it was thousands of posts long and discussed a huge number of issues).

To my knowledge, no significant thread containing 2009 feedback or criticism was deleted--and I just checked the moderators' private area of deleted threads going back to August 2009 to make sure. If you can offer specifics of what you think was deleted I can investigate further, but it's very unlikely that this occurred. Remember, you can review all of your, or another member's, posts from the link in your or their profile (those posts which are not in deleted threads).

There is an off chance it was accidentally moved to a different forum area in one of the recent re-orgs, but it would still be in a publicly searchable area, so if you search on keywords of members' posts it would be found.

[murder_of_raven]

...Um, I just typed that up last night, thanks.  I may have posted a similar critique-type thing awhile ago, but I would have remembered an "extensive discussion." Don't just assume I copy and pasted and how horrible of me (because people HAVE been saying similar things for awhile, just read this entire thread for that.  Not to mention I reference previous posts in this specific topic in my post), I just wanted to make sure that this far in the game people still remembered some of the issues, and offering YES, here's yet another person's comments about their con experience.  

Oh dear, you really misinterpreted me. That was not meant to be an attack, I simply got a serious albeit apparently unwarranted sense of deja vu. Weird though because I checked myself by saying aloud what you were going to say next and each time I was more or less right... >.>

And yes JeffT, you are right, it was simply renamed and I was referring to this thread: http://www.kumoricon.org/forums/index.php?topic=11118.0. And I've searched all through the forum and I really can't find anything... I don't know people, just ignore me I guess XP

[The_Panda]

2. I know that the location is just right across the river, but I (and other Eugenians) really would prefer it stay in Portland. If we can go to the convention hall, awesome. If we stay at the Hilton, fine. If we go back to the Doubletree, even better. (I loved that park so much.) But if it is at all possible to keep it in portland, the better. Maybe not to say that we won't come to Kumoricon should that happen, but it will certainly make it harder.

What location? I am confused? What are we talking about here? If you are referring to anything in Vancouver,
exactly what makes the 8 mile difference so much of a hindrance? I'm not upset, just confused. I don't want
to miss an obvious issue with a Vancouver hotel option, if we put Vancouver hotels on the table as an option.

On the subject of dances vs bands; I think this issue has, for the most part been resolved. There isnt going to be
anything we can do about the curfew, but most likely their should be a way for dancing to happen for those
loverly kids and minors who can't stay about the con after late! More details to follow from prog eventually.

We luuurve input. I just want to make sure I'm getting the most out of the suggestions to make future conventions
better. However;

Lets remember this thread was for the 2010 year, not future years. We cannot do anything about hotel stuff
this year. We are at the Downtown Hilton for the 2010 con year, no ifs ands or buts.

~Allykat

ARGH ARGH ARGH. Let me explain my clear confusion (and lack of research). I thought that it was some 40 miles due north of portland. I, (with my NON-RESEARCH SKILLS) totally did not get that it was RIGHT over the river. Got it. Infinitely better.

So, I'm curious about something regarding the curfew and dances, then.
Year before last, ('08) the dances were allowed to go until 1 with minors. Then they got kicked out, told to go to bed, the like. But what was the dramatic change from 1 'o clock to midnight curfew? Does the hotel itself have a curfew?

[Animeman73]

I have a suggestion for you Kumoricon staff members. Do you think you could make a large print copy of the pocket schedule for the visually impaired?

[JeffT]

I have a suggestion for you Kumoricon staff members. Do you think you could make a large prinbt copy of the pocket schedule for the visually impaired?

Keep in mind we do create an online copy, which can be used with whatever tools you need. Last year's is still up:

http://www.kumoricon.org/schedule/

[AllyKat]

So, I'm curious about something regarding the curfew and dances, then.
Year before last, ('08) the dances were allowed to go until 1 with minors. Then they got kicked out, told to go to bed, the like. But what was the dramatic change from 1 'o clock to midnight curfew? Does the hotel itself have a curfew?

I suppose I should actually answer this (again ) But basically; I have to ask people not to use previous years as an example of law. This is called Ad Tradizone or an Appeal to Tradition, a fallacy stating that since something has "always been done" it is therefore right or correct. Previous years may not have taken into account Portland regulations regarding curfew which state;

                                  School Night    Non-School Night
PORTLAND & UNDER 14    9:15PM-6AM      10:15PM- 6AM
PORTLAND & 14-17        10:15PM-6AM      Midnight- 6AM

available for verification here - http://www.co.multnomah.or.us/dcj/jcjcurfew.shtml

I'd like to point out that these rules are more strict than the convention rules in regards to youth under the
age of 14. This is why; since we require 12 and under to be accompanied by a parent at all times, there curfew
is at best limited to their discourse by law. A police officer cannot cite a child who is in the protection of a parent
unless the child is being unlawful in a way that is disruptive or detrimental to the public peace. We extend at the time
our midnight curfew to all attendees, with the stipulation that as always, a parent is with all attendees under the age of 13.

It should be noted that as of May 2007 Vancouver, WA has NO Curfew for juveniles, and upon research of Washington Law, has not enacted any such curfew. The state if Washington itself leaves this up to the jurisdiction of each city.

verified here - http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=35.21.635

WHAT THIS MEANS: While portland has a curfew, and we abide by it, Vancouver does not. That said, we still
have rules and policies within our own convention and as such, for liability and safety of our patrons we retain the right to enact a curfew on all guests under the age of 18. City laws are a ceiling to our policies, but within that we may decide on further procautions.

If you ever have any question regarding curfew or how it is enforced; or why you may never notice the curfew laws in portland, please PM me your questions, as law and enforcement are two entirely different entities.

[JeffT]

WHAT THIS MEANS: While portland has a curfew, and we abide by it, Vancouver does not. That said, we still
have rules and policies within our own convention and as such, for liability and safety of our patrons we retain the right to enact a curfew on all guests under the age of 18. City laws are a ceiling to our policies, but within that we may decide on further procautions.

My understanding is that as Kumoricon is on private property, we are actually under no legal requirement at all to match Portland's curfew. Although the convention policies last year did state a curfew of 12:00midnight to 6:00am, that was simply a decision of Kumoricon, and not a legal requirement. Is that incorrect?

[AllyKat]

You are half right Jeff. Private property partially protects us from curfew laws. However, its not as solid ground here in Oregon as it might be in states with less legislation on the issue.

Theoretically, because the Hotel is a Business, not a residence, it has to adhere to the laws of all municipalities in which it resides. Much like how a minor cannot run around a Pancake house at 2am and a cop have no power over it, if a Police officer so saw fit, they could reprimand a minor for breaking curfew within the convention space.

Here is where it gets tricky;

Convention space is not public domain. You have to either be an officer of the law, convention/hotel staff or an attendee to enter. It could be categorized as a "residence type" area where common law comes into play (As in dont make problems and we will not have problems). The issue here is that the moment the police are called for any incident, if it turns out regulations were not followed (IE someone gets hurt or taken and they were a minor who was allowed to remain in convention space after curfew) it becomes a crime on the part of Kumoricon who allowed the infraction to occur. The extent of the violation and retribution is, of course dependent on the judiciary finding but none-the-less a black eye on the convention itself.

As we know from other legislation (masks and decency regulations) on the street level things get complicated...

To be honest, following the Portland regulations on curfew is like looking both ways before crossing the street; it's just smarter and safer. Most of the time, it's not going to affect us if we dont, but there is that 1% chance that it might come back to bite us in the butt, I'd like to think we are smarter than allowing a thing like Minor curfew regulations to hurt our event.

In short; We are ALWAYS under legal requirement to match City Regulations; where the brightline is remains very ambigous because no one at the city level is going to come in and start checking IDs. But
liability is the big heavy dirty word in regulation and enforcement, and its better to be safe then sued.

[JeffT]

Actually, that does not appear to be what the law states. It seems the hotel being private property, is not subject to curfew laws, even though some areas may be accessible to the public (not just convention attendees).

From Portland law:

http://www.portlandonline.com/auditor/index.cfm?c=28516&a=15453

"A. It is unlawful for any minor to be in or upon any public property or public right of way between the hours specified in this Section, unless such minor is accompanied by a parent, guardian or other person 21 years of age or over and authorized by the parent or by the law to have care and custody of the minor, or unless such minor is then engaged in a school activity or lawful employment that makes it necessary to be in or upon any city property or public right of way during the hours specified in this Section. For minors under the age of 14 years who have not begun high school, curfew is between 9:15 p.m. and 6 a.m. of the following morning, except that on any day immediately preceding a day for which no public school is scheduled in the City, the curfew is between 10:15 p.m. and 6 a.m. of the following morning. For children 14 years of age or older who have begun high school, curfew is between 10:15 p.m. and 6 a.m. of the following morning, except that on any day immediately preceding a day for which no public school is scheduled in the City, curfew is between 12 midnight and 6 a.m. of the following morning."

(emphasis added)

Portland law has definitions for the above two bolded terms:

http://www.portlandonline.com/auditor/index.cfm?c=28509&a=15381

"P. Public Property: any property including but not limited to parks, rights of way, easements, buildings, or other land or physical structures owned or managed by the City or other governmental agency.

Q. Public Right of Way: any thoroughfare or area intended, designed, or used for vehicular or pedestrian traffic."

In particular, there is a definition for "public place" in the law (same page as above), which would include areas of a hotel that are not guest rooms (or perhaps meeting rooms) that are open to the public. But that is not referenced by the curfew law.

To me, it is clear cut, that the curfew law does not apply on the hotel.

In short; We are ALWAYS under legal requirement to match City Regulations; where the brightline is remains very ambigous because no one at the city level is going to come in and start checking IDs

We do not have the right to say "the law does not apply in here" but the law itself says it only applies on public property and public rights of way. So it is not us circumventing the law; rather, the law simply does not apply. Furthermore, it is not ambiguous.

It is true that there is always a low chance of some unforeseen liability but that applies to just about any domain in which the convention participates. It doesn't change the fact that the law is clear on the matter here.

There may be other reasons the convention decides it's a good idea to match Portland's curfew. For example, maybe we don't want to encourage minors to stay such that suddenly, they are not legally allowed to leave the convention space without a parent.

[AllyKat]

EDIT: I conceed to Jeff's knowledge on Portland City Law, the auditor's office is in place for a reason; to protect the citizens from the enforcement offices and their liberties with law. I just feel that one of the main reasons why we have a curfew in place is for liability when it comes to legal precident and action. I may in fact be wrong, but it makes more sense then; "because we said so."


Like I said, it only get tricky when bad things start happening, or lets say a minor isn't staying at the hotel and needs to walk home or go to a different hotel? Once they leave convention space they become applicable to the law.

This is why I would have prefered to discuss this with anyone who is interested via PM. There is a difference between enforcement and LAW. The actual legislation is clear; but its enforcement is subject
to interpretation. Several sources not counting the City Auditors office (who does not represent the judicial body I might add) have conflicting information regarding the regulations connected to laws that involve minors. For instance; in multnomah county, the worst you can do is detain and return to parent or guardian. However, some sources I found claim that after 3 infractions you can be required to take a parenting class or your child may be elligible for juvinile hall. That seems odd to me and I can't find that information explicitly stated in the actual regulations.

Once again, it's about the law and the enforcement and the source. When you get right down to it, what side do you want to be on? The side thats fighting semantics, or the side safely in the right? I don't proffess to know everything about Portland city law, but I do know that a law doesn't have to be written a certain way for someone to get caught on the wrong side of it.

[JeffT]

You're right in that it's probably a good idea for a variety of reasons for the con to have the curfew, including for it to match Portland's curfew. However I just wanted to clarify the applicability because I feel it's important to understand whose authority is whose. We aren't enforcing Portland's curfew, we are mirroring it and extending it to our own event by our own decision.

[AllyKat]

You are right, thats a good distinction to make.

Of course, how many people are going to bother to sift through the muck that is our law books and
understand the differences in jurisdiction and brink of a law... is probably less than one might like.

Though you never know, anime fans tend to enjoy stuff like debate and parlimentary commentary.

[JeffT]

You are right, thats a good distinction to make.

Of course, how many people are going to bother to sift through the muck that is our law books and
understand the differences in jurisdiction and brink of a law... is probably less than one might like.

Though you never know, anime fans tend to enjoy stuff like debate and parlimentary commentary.

Well, people are expected to obey the law, whether they actually know it or not... and attendees are expected to obey our policies... so I figure it's a good idea to make them both as clear as possible if the discussion arises.

[ArienDrakon]

Ok first let me say a thanks to all the Kumoricon staff as they did excellent with what they had to work with. Having been staff at things before I know how it is to be stuck between various rules, regulations, fun, attendees, owners, other staff and all that jazz.

However I did want to present some thoughts and concerns I had about last year. And yes I read the previous pages.

My first concern is with the lobby and hallways. I know fire regulations prohibit blocking exits and entrances. Also I understand keeping walkways clear so it’s not one big human wall. However in areas like the lobby or a huge hallway I really enjoy just hanging out and talking to people. However on several occasions we were told by hotel staff and kumo staff that we had to keep moving. We weren’t allowed to sit on the carpet in the lobby or stand next to seats. Only people who had seats were allowed to remain. For the rest of us we were basically pushed outside in the rain, even those of us who were hotel guests. We never had this problem at any of the hotels in the past 4-5 years. What little there was, was never to the extent that it was at the Hilton.

My second concern is the hotel staff blocking of entire floors, via escalators, saying that there is only one event down there and it’s full. So they didn’t let us move down to the floor even if there actually was another event about to start or even just to look around to familiarize myself with the layout of the place.

Thirdly is the masks. Now I know that masks have been an issue with past hotels, but usually by the second day they lighten up and are ok with them. I was told during all three days at the Hilton though that my mask was not to be worn. I being Jack Skellington need my mask to complete the costume, but I was told that I could never have it on except for a quick photo. It’s really frustrating, especially since that is one of fulcrums for a con is the ability to dress up.

My last thought, that has been talked about a bit in previous pages, is getting organized with age limits at events. Several events I attended that was, according to some material, adult only, ended up being any age. This confusion caused various costumed events with some people dressing up and behaving in adult manor not knowing that it had been changed to a kid friendly event. One confrontation with one of my friends at one of these events had an accusing tone to the attire. They ended up crying and left feeling humiliated. There was sympathy and comfort offered, but it didn’t change the initial reaction of ‘you know this is a kids event so you are blatantly breaking the rules’ tone that was taken. (Note: all the other events I attended were very amusing and well organized. So great job on them in my opinion)

I know not everyone experienced all these things, but a lot of my friends did. Again let me say that the Kumo staff is awesome, and I don’t doubt the resolve of the hotel managers to help keep us happy. That said though it was really frustrating and on more that one occasion I left the hotel for just wandering around the city, just out of frustration. I know it will be better this year (insert faith in you guys here!), but if I knew what it would have been like last year before I went I never would have attended.

Sorry for the long post and please don’t think I’m trying to pick on you guys cause you guys rule! It’s just a couple wrinkles that if straightened out would make con epic again!

[kai-chan]

I want to post my concerns about last year *** NOTE IM TOO LAZY TO READ ALL 10 PAGES****



overcapacity rule.
     What is the legal capacity for the hotel? we had thousands of people there but the hotel kept on interrupting our events in rooms cuz we had too many people in one room. I was in the the Hentai panel. That had only one viewing during the whole con and had about 100 people * that i saw for myself* who wanted to go. but the hotel staff wouldn't let people stand to watch the event, and there was only 30 chairs. before the hotel staff came in there was about 50 people in the room 30 in chairs 20 standing in the back. the hotel kicked them all out!!! saying its a fire hazard and then 50 more people tried to get in but was turned away. I personally didnt think it would be that bad because one it was curfew time for the younger people (less threw traffic). Also it was in the hotel part that had hardly anyone in it. and that wasnt the only thing they interrupted. they took away the ramen for the ramen eating contest, and the food for the host club also was taken. Overall the Hotel staff were not con friendly at all. We should have told them if you can supply us the same product for teh same price FINE!! serve us your ramen for the contest for free , or the food in the events for the same price. Also we couldn't do congo lines during the dance!! that was a fire hazord!! its not like if there was a fire the people wouldnt have broken it up and ran for the doors. -----huff--huff--- glad that got out of me ^_-

I went to the rant and rave after the con and everyone was mad at the hotel. There was a movement going on!!! so many people had a bad experience because of the hotel. I cant wait for us to be in a different location.

there should be more hentai panels offered. somany people got turned away

[Animeman73]

Jeff T, let me say for the record i was pleased to hear that Jaz is returning as V.I.P. coordinator. After the splendid job she did last year this is definitely going to help make the V.I.P. experience better. Kudos to you and Kudos to Jaz.