Twilight was written with incompetence and a lack of literary understanding.

[TanisNikana]

It never ceases to amaze me how this became popular. What a way to tell kids "oh, by the way, if you act all helpless and don't do jack, a vampire's gonna save you, then he's gonna sex you up and kill you."

I have no words for this.

[TomtheFanboy]

No words except maybe....

It never ceases to amaze me how this became popular.

Now this is a thread that deserves a million hits!


I could accept a lot of the mythology rules in twilight if the characters were better. I can even ignore poor writing if the movie is directed better or the screenplay improves the characterizations. Unfortunately none of these have happened yet.

Even someone as talented as Dakota Fanning (shut up) isn't enough to make me see these movies. I would be appalled at her acceptance of the part but she is, after all, a teenage girl.

[AllyKat]

I disagree... but thats a combination of two causes;

1) I enjoy argumentation and discourse.

2) I happen to find the ability to show desire and lust without turning a book
into a story about sex crazy teens incredibly powerful.

~Allykat

[StarryShay]

The only reason I was never able to get into the Twilight stories was because Stephanie Meyer isn't very good.
No offense to her or anything, but when the characters are talking, all it says is "he said, she said, he said, blah blah".
:/

[TanisNikana]

Harry Potter is a better example of what happens when you defecate a marketing machine onto a book, but in this case the series was written well enough to encourage suspension of disbelief, rather than have writing so sloppy, a story so cliched that you remember you're reading a book.

Sad thing was, as awesome as HP was, it spawned six terrible movies. And a seventh to come.

Twilight didn't even have the book thing going for it.

[The_Geek]

http://media.photobucket.com/image/dramatica%20twilight/belldandy112/TwilightSucks.jpg
This sums it up for most people.

[AllyKat]

Tanis, you just don't strike me as the type to have actually read, in its entirety
the original Twilight book, let alone the entire "Twilight Saga" as it is now called.

Have you had a chance to read Stephanie Meyer's Sophomore Novel (I say sophomore
because I consider the books under the twilight name to be of the same vein in
her growth as an author, less advancement was made between each of the books in
that series compared to what she has appeared to learn when she wrote The Host)
which is a sci-fi fantasy called The Host? I think it might appeal to you more, and show
you the growth that she has undergone as a writer since her debut.

Which is an important point; most authors, most well known or "great" authors are not
often known for there first works. It takes a great literary genius to get it right the
first time and subsequent times after that. And popularity has never in my mind denoted
genius or correctness in cultural literation. Ms. Meyer has proved she can create an
interesting universe, and she can pen it to paper. Now comes the time when we watch
to see if she can actually make that skill into an art form and wether or not her works
can actually truly capture a conciousness, create a living breathing character. I do not
believe Stephanie Meyer reached even 1/10th of her potential in her first works, but I
do believe she has the skill in determination at least, to work through the mud and make
a career of it. If at least only in the Young Adult section.

On another tangent, this is kinda like scrutinizing the literary clout of the Gossip Girls' series.
What gain is there? Clearly there was, in the author's mind, some sort of social commentary
and message there, but through popularity and fandom came a TV show that well destroys
what may have been an interesting series for the 11-15 year old generation. While I have only
read a few of these, I find them dry and tastless, and the show a projection of that with
melodrama to exceed any high school thespian troupe. That being said, it by no means says
that they were not written well within there genre and intent. You cannot compare those
books to Charles Dickens or Stephen Hawking, much like you cannot compare a Manga to a
novel... the discrepencies in style, design, content and commentary are too far, and the
audience to much in scope to determine who is truly better. Because books are so personal,
I cite the overall spamming of the library and book store with the termonology "Best Seller" to
be the condeming cause of book-hatred. There is no such thing as a "Best Seller". Even if a
book surpasses projected sales, it does so within it's own genre. And while people may be
enticed to pick it up even if it is outside their literary spectrum, that sign is not going to have
a say in the matter. It is the people around us that help us chose our novels, not Powells or
Borders or B&N propaganda. (Perhaps a slight percentage, but not enough to skew the curve)
However, the constant barage of neccesity to be "in the loop" has caused our friends to
push books on us and the rest of society that may not be in our realm of liking... causing books
that should stay in the youth section, and be secretly read by mothers and 20 somethings as
they dream of their knights in shining armor, have been yanked out of their metaphysical closet
and into the limelight to be tried as a masterpiece of literature? How unfair a claim!

Only once in a great while do such books take that test and pass it with flying colors. Only
in a blue moon does a book surmount it's genre and audience target to become a "classic". I
would never imagine Twilight to be such a book. It was and is a good read, to me, and I
love the idea of bringing that fun little escape to the screen for a 2 hour escape from the doldrum
of society, but let us be frank... a blockbuster does not a great novel require, and to conspire
against a book on behalf of it's movie is a frivolous cause, as such is the hating of a novel for
it's genre. If you aren't a target audience, you should have never really cared for the books
existence in the first place. What you actually dislike is the fact that good books for certain
groups are being pushed on the general populous, destroying their worth and making books a fad,
instead of a personal adventure and escape.

Hate the sin, not the sinner, correct?

~Allykat

[TomtheFanboy]

Sad thing was, as awesome as HP was, it spawned six terrible movies. And a seventh to come.

I hear it'll actually be 2 movies for book seven! 

[nikkiolie]

yeah it is two movies for 7.

I think one of the problems with this book is that the majority of people reading it are younger and haven't read some more advanced books and found out what good writing is like. I skimmed through some of it and it did seem like it was directed to more of the pre-teens. But that is a good thing, that means more of these kids are reading. So to those pre-teens those books are amazing but to older people they come off as childish and poorly written, tha'ts because she is writing it for a different audience.

[TomtheFanboy]

I have actually gone back and read books I loved as a kid and found them to be rather simple, but they still weren't BAD or clumsy stories. Just easier to read.

[AllyKat]

I have actually gone back and read books I loved as a kid and found them to be rather simple, but they still weren't BAD or clumsy stories. Just easier to read.

That errs on the side of your taste Tom, I imagine you probably read books like
"A cricket in time square" or "Where the red fern grows" and maybe a few
R.L. Stine books to pass the time... Chapter books, pre-teen novelas and the
like. At least, you strike me as a reader, where-as most of those books would bore
or be too involved or complicated for kids who think of reading as a chore. Books
similar to Twilight hit an audience that doesn't have time to grow with the story,
and doesn't have the energy to read between the lines (I say this gritting my teeth
because everyone should enjoy reading, and should relish the subcontext and underlying
messages, but I find most of my friends were confused, not over-joyed by books like
Speaker for the Dead, durring my middle school years) so inherent in the system of
writing is a very tell-all style that feels chopped and sloppy, but allows the reader to
know whats going on with little effort.

A series I am currently interested in, called Night World (Because the story works so well
with a rpg my friends and I play) is similar in this. It is so short and so blatent in it's plot
that sometimes I feel rushed to a point when I felt like a could have gotten more out of
it if the writer had slowed down a moment to give me more background. But then, for a
kid who is texting, playing video games and uploading videos on youtube, perhaps the 12
year old generation of today just doesn't have time for such luxuries as a good plot.

The tide of literature ebbs and flows with who will buy it, and honestly, if I could put my
hand to the task, I could probably crank out about a half a dozen of these bestseller teen
novels with just as much effort as most of my highschool papers, and have the same
value as anything Meyers or her contemporaries write. But... I am a procrastinator, so she
corners the market and those like her make money while I dream of actually finishing one of
my "brilliant ideas".

~Allykat

[Dubaby]

As someone who has read the Twilight series, but doesn't see it as the "greatest thing ever written in the history of man," I personally think that 'Twilight' is a decent series. It's obviously not written very well (anyone who thinks so needs to really go back and read some of the classics.) but that aside the sotryline itself is fairly interesting and the book is compelling in a sort of strange unexplainable way. Then again I read the first Twilight in 2005 before the whole series turned into the ridiculous pop-culture phenomenon it is now. Like I said I actually used to be a bit of a Twilight fan, but once all the "Twihards" started to pop up and people started REALLY obsessing over the book and the movies I totally lost all interest, in fact I'm so tired about hearing about Twilight and all the actors in the horrible movies that I had no desire to read the final book once it finally came out.

In the end just seeing how overrated the whole thing has become is just irritating to me.

[dshwshr55]

Okay, despite what everyone says about the Twilight series - all the slander, hate, disapprovement, disgust - I think I'm the only person in the world who hasn't seen the movies OR read the books. Even with everyone dissing the movies, those SAME people are the ones who go and ALSO read the books! What's up with that?

[NARUNIK]

lol Tanis. I knew you were going to do this. I read the first few pages of this book. NOW I KNOW WHY MY LIBRARY TEACHER HAS A TUMOR IN HER HAND... The book is okay..But still a blow off..BUT THE MOVIE...was trash..

[DemonSpawn]

I think everyone has a right to their own opinions, however, I don't think making threads like this does anything but make people angry and debateful.

@dshwshr

Well you can't really argue about something you aren't educated about.


About the 'well written' stuff, yeah, they are aimed at teenagers, teenagers who are getting stupider and stupider, the writing has to get more simple for the age group it's being aimed at, if you're writing a book for adults of course it's going to be better written than a book for teenagers/pre-teens.

I personally liked these books, my grandma got me Twilight for christmas back before anyone had heard of it, I was probably about thirteen, so yeah, I liked it, but, like, I think it was Dubaby who said it, the hype about it makes it overrated.

Another thing, when people make a big deal about something, it's kind of you going and expecting something amazing and spectacular when you get to it, but even if it's even a little bit less than your expectations, of course you're going to be dissapointed, of course you're going to say it's trash.

My advice though, there are some battles you cannot win, some battles that are absolutely pointless, and until all these movies are done with, fighting the twitard battle is pointless and a waste of breath.

The most you can do is ignore it and wait until something better comes along, no one's going to try and change your opinion, and you should respect that you can't change anyone else's too.

There's my two cents, that's all I'll say about it.

[MiriaRose]

I own all four books and have seen the first movie.

I think it's an awful book that sends an awful message.

Also, dshwshr55, it's hard to argue against something you know nothing about.

[dshwshr55]

I wasn't arguing for or against ANYthing. All I said was that other people make fun of it or just plain don't like it, yet claim to have read or watched everything about Twilight. I don't know anything about the series, and I never claimed to, so I can't express any opinions about the series itself. I didn't judge those people who read the books or watched the movies, either.
I simply made an observation that EVERYone has watched/read Twilight. Even though it's in such a bad light (no pun intended), people still insist on watching it or reading it.
"What's up with that?" is more or less a question of "Why?", if that's what most of you mistook my "arguement" as.

[MiriaRose]

No, I was answering your statement about why we read Twilight if we hate it. xD;;

[DemonSpawn]

No, I was answering your statement about why we read Twilight if we hate it. xD;;

I was too, just FYI.

[dshwshr55]

@dshwshr

Well you can't really argue about something you aren't educated about.

Also, dshwshr55, it's hard to argue against something you know nothing about.

Well, I guess it's just those two comments that sounded the wrong way toward me. I thought you were implying that I was judging people or ... well ... was trying to "argue" (in the sense of taking one side over another) about something I didn't know about.
My bad. >.>

[MiriaRose]

It's okay. I understand~ xD

[DemonSpawn]

That's the problem of the interwebz, you can't hear tones of voice. XD

[AllyKat]

1. Isn't it odd how Tanis started this and yet he hasn't really made any truly
combative or argumentative statments save the first one that opened this
thread? It's like he knew how to comitt the arson... but forgot the fuel and
we just happened to be the can of gas lying against the building...

2. I can't figure out what message Twilight sends that has people so up in arms,
honestly, I am a team jacob so Edward Cullen has always sickened me, and I've
never thought he's right for bella,  but then... I have friends like that too, who
make no sense being together, who don't like the same things, who aren't people
who seem like they belong together... but something carnal, something instinctual,
pulled them together out of all the people in the world, and they have never
looked back, and never questioned it, not once. No matter what pain and what
problems. I just shrug and go with it, cause you can't stop that kind of attraction.

Personally, I am suprised so many people hate Twilight for it's message. Isn't it
nice to anyone else that a book can be about falling in love in a way that doesn't
involve sex until AFTER marriage? Or atleast until AFTER highschool? I know many
people have different views of teen sexuality... and I'm not discrediting anyone's
opinion on whether kids should or shouldn't have sex... but... in a world that has
made sex so open and so right out there in our lives... it's kinda nice to see that
tension, that wanting and that desire... and watch them have to, for one reason
or another... have to set that desire aside, have to bottle it until they are ready,
until its right.

Edward and Bella don't make sense to me, but thats because I am the hopeless
romantic, and so that devisation that occurs in the 2nd book... would break me...
I'd be looking for someone to save me from the pain... and I would probably take
Jacob as my love because after all Edward put me through... I could never imagine
giving him the chance to leave me again... I would much rather known he is alive
and perfect and happy... then he is always worrying about me, and me slowing
him down. But... thats not bella's inner monolouge. She can't function without Edward,
so we watch her fight that mental connection for a deeper one, one you can't
really put into words... whats it called... I know there is an old fashioned cliche
name for it... what is it?

Oh yeah,

"True Love". Unexplainable attraction, unequivical devotion, unwavering dedication.
Sometimes it happens, and in those instances, you don't need to show it through
sex scenes and rebellion. You can take the old school formula, and peruse the edges
of romance in a way that leads up to that moment... and doesn't make it everything,
but also makes it something... special. But only just as special as every other moment
you spend with the one you love.

Thats the message I get out of Twilight. That it is okay to believe in actual love,
the kind that doesn't require reasons or "levels of compatibility". The kind you
don't take a test for, the kind you don't plan. But... I can see how, in or day
and age... honestly... it's a pipe dream, and the reality is that that happens
to rarely to be a worthwhile commentary....

But sometimes it's nice to dream.

~Allykat

[MiriaRose]

1. Isn't it odd how Tanis started this and yet he hasn't really made any truly
combative or argumentative statments save the first one that opened this
thread? It's like he knew how to comitt the arson... but forgot the fuel and
we just happened to be the can of gas lying against the building...

I take it you've never talked to Tanis before.

2. I can't figure out what message Twilight sends that has people so up in arms,

Glorifies abuse, child grooming, etc. Also says you have to be special to succeed in life.

honestly, I am a team jacob so Edward Cullen has always sickened me, and I've
never thought he's right for bella,  but then... I have friends like that too, who
make no sense being together, who don't like the same things, who aren't people
who seem like they belong together... but something carnal, something instinctual,
pulled them together out of all the people in the world, and they have never
looked back, and never questioned it, not once. No matter what pain and what
problems. I just shrug and go with it, cause you can't stop that kind of attraction.

Your friends' significant others don't let them see their friends, talk their sisters into kidnapping them so they can't see their friends, and take their car engines out? Oh, and were watching your friends sleep before they even got together?

Personally, I am suprised so many people hate Twilight for it's message. Isn't it
nice to anyone else that a book can be about falling in love in a way that doesn't
involve sex until AFTER marriage? Or atleast until AFTER highschool? I know many
people have different views of teen sexuality... and I'm not discrediting anyone's
opinion on whether kids should or shouldn't have sex... but... in a world that has
made sex so open and so right out there in our lives... it's kinda nice to see that
tension, that wanting and that desire... and watch them have to, for one reason
or another... have to set that desire aside, have to bottle it until they are ready,
until its right.

It's not about sex, actually, it's about how the way Edward and Jacob treat Bella is overlooked and called loving.

Edward and Bella don't make sense to me, but thats because I am the hopeless
romantic, and so that devisation that occurs in the 2nd book... would break me...

Yeah, but the wangst was really annoying. The second book is what began my dislike of Twilight, actually, because Bella was so annoying.

I'd be looking for someone to save me from the pain... and I would probably take
Jacob as my love because after all Edward put me through... I could never imagine
giving him the chance to leave me again... I would much rather known he is alive
and perfect and happy... then he is always worrying about me, and me slowing
him down. But... thats not bella's inner monolouge. She can't function without Edward,

We call that co-dependency.

so we watch her fight that mental connection for a deeper one, one you can't
really put into words... whats it called... I know there is an old fashioned cliche
name for it... what is it?

Oh yeah,

"True Love".

True love? More like true lust. They have no chemistry, the only reason Bella loves Edward is because he's hot.

Unexplainable attraction, unequivical devotion, unwavering dedication.
Sometimes it happens, and in those instances, you don't need to show it through
sex scenes and rebellion. You can take the old school formula, and peruse the edges
of romance in a way that leads up to that moment... and doesn't make it everything,

What romance? All I remember about the romance was Edward saying how adorable Bella is and how warm she is and Bella saying how hot Edward is.

but also makes it something... special. But only just as special as every other moment
you spend with the one you love.

How is their lust special?

Thats the message I get out of Twilight. That it is okay to believe in actual love,
the kind that doesn't require reasons or "levels of compatibility". The kind you
don't take a test for, the kind you don't plan. But... I can see how, in or day
and age... honestly... it's a pipe dream, and the reality is that that happens
to rarely to be a worthwhile commentary....

What love? The reason Edward is interested in Bella is because he can't read her mind and the reason Bella is interested in Edward is because he's special and hot.

But sometimes it's nice to dream.

~Allykat

I do agree with that.

Also, Bella treats her school "friends" like crap. She's the new girl at school, everyone loves her and the popular girls accept her and the guys are all over her. . So why's she so whiny?

[NARUNIK]

I wish Twilight never became a movie. Or atleast I wish it had good special effects.

>.<

If Twilight didn't became a movie then this stuff wouldnt be happening. Because I had no idea about Twilight till the movie.

[AllyKat]

I think we are all over-analyzing the key points of Twilight.

1. Edward is hot
It never really specifically says that, while we know they have a beauty to
them that bella comments on, she never outwardly says she wants to jump
his bones, she gets lost in him... she desires to be near him... but we never
listen to her talking about how hot and heavy she is over him. Yes she is
obsessed, and I will agree with you that, when you think about it... there are
alot of creepy things that go into that relationship... but... taking a step
outside any relationship.. there are things that could be seen as wrong or
awkward or abusive. No relationship is perfect. Also she also loves him for
more than his appearance. The series makes several references to her "old
soul" attitude which we have failed to discuss here. There personality types
have striking similarities in that, while he is ages old, she acts as such in her
communication with him and people close to her. Her emotional color wheel
may not fit it and may not show it, but clearly the books display a certain sense
of "maturity" in her persona that compliments the age of her vampire beau.

2. Edward can't read her mind
I think we could look at this as that kind of "playing hard to get" mentality. We
all have those friends who are oblivious to their attraction. Or one who doesn't
get it or makes it hard for the other member of the relationship. Around them
are people who "get them" but the actual work that the partner must do to
understand the one they love makes them love them... does that makes sense?
Edwards own insecurities and his inability to know everything attracts him to
bella because their relationship is all about the trust and the realness of it, he
can't use his ability, so it makes the relationship more human.

3. "Don't let them see friends.... kidnap and car engines and watching people
sleep"
To be fair, you are right... much of this borders on the creepy, but remember
most books go for the over the top to illustrate devotion. If they didn't they
wouldn't make good fiction. There wouldn't be enough to illustrate the devotion
they have to eachother. Once again this is the ability of a vampire being use out
of context. I am sure there are people who are love struck and heart sick on
some girl or guy... who watch them any chance they get... maybe not so much
as stalking... but certainly desire to see them everywhere they go... who may
even dream of sleeping next to them, or watching them sleep. The only reason
this occurs in Twilight is because Edward can get away with it, simply a part of
the fantastic storyline of Twilight.
As far as the kidnapping and the car engine are concerned, that again is taken
out of the context of the dangers. The story makes it clear there were dangers
involved and if your significant other were best friends with a bunch of druggie thugs,
would you not try and do everything in your power to keep them away from such
dangers, even if they assured you their friends would NEVER let anything happen
to them. When you are that in love, you don't trust anyone else to take care of the
one thing that makes you happy... So you become a desperate person. It's taken
to the dramatic because of the fantasy of Vampire's and Werewolves, but its a type
and a shadow of the helplessness we all feel when we are apart from those we care
for too deeply for our own good.

4. Co-dependency
I can't argue this, because honestly I have a gravely different opinion of these kind
of issues then most modern men and women, and it is not an argument I'd get into
over twilight, actually, it's not an argument I'd ever get into. It would take far too much
and would require to many ifs and buts to explain. But suffice it to say; there are some
situations where you are right... about 98% of the time to be honest... and then there
are the select few (which are the people most novels are about anyway) that love
and are safe in that love... that honestly can't live without eachother... but thats okay.
It also goes into the fantasy again... the fact that she can't live without him, and he
can't exist without her is okay because they could always be able to be together forever.

5. Chemistry
Thats kinda personal opinion don't you think? Chemistry is how you see it. Many
different reasons are behind why some people get together... sometimes it's opposites,
some times similars, sometimes it's just one wierd common interest... no couple is the
same in their reasons for getting together... at least not entirely.

6. School friends
This goes with my old soul thing. She just doesn't connect to these kids. Notice how when
she leaves Arizona, she makes mention of these friends in Arizona... but they seem like a
distant worry, and a after thought rather than a pain in her heart? The girl clearly seems
to be one who wafts through school life, clinging only to the fringes of it's society. People
love her for the same reason we loved audrey hepburn and grace kelly. They were alluring,
and mysterious, and they didn't give you everything you wanted. It's that old style draw,
the one that makes every head turn when she goes in a room. The beautiful thing about it
is that she has NO CLUE it's happening, her self image is one of a clutz and a freak... a speck
on the radar. Thats how it's so easy for her to slough off these friends... They seem juvenile
to her, and she also feels as though they wouldn't so much care if she fluttered out of their
lives just as quickly as she arrived.

You honestly see this book series exactly the way I figure most people do. And that is totally
okay. I may not understand it, and I may have a different view... but thats what is soooo
awesome about books. Is that it's rare for two people to read one and get the same story
out of it... its why I don't think books should become fads... it makes it hard for those who
love a story to really enjoy it over and over again... because they feel they have to justify
their enjoyment of a book... and you should never have to justify your literary choices to anyone.

~Allykat

[NARUNIK]

The thing I liked about the movie (Twilight) was when Edward was reading peoples minds...And most of them were thinking about sex....

The asian dude was thinking about CATS. This made me laugh.

[TomtheFanboy]

Well you can't really argue about something you aren't educated about.

Why do people always say that?
Don't you watch the news?

[MiriaRose]

I think we are all over-analyzing the key points of Twilight.

All analyzing of literature is over-analyzing, in my opinion.

1. Edward is hot
It never really specifically says that,

She gives him enough description to tell that he's outrageously good-looking.

while we know they have a beauty to
them that bella comments on,

Edward especially.

she never outwardly says she wants to jump
his bones,

Bella's the one who wants them to have sex all the time.

she gets lost in him... she desires to be near him... but we never
listen to her talking about how hot and heavy she is over him.

She thinks he's insanely attractive and goes into detail about it too many times throughout the book. The text might as well been purple.

Yes she is
obsessed, and I will agree with you that, when you think about it... there are
alot of creepy things that go into that relationship...

I'm glad we agree on something.

but... taking a step
outside any relationship.. there are things that could be seen as wrong or
awkward or abusive.

In normal relationships, people do not say, "You aren't allowed to see your best friend."

No relationship is perfect.

Certainly not, but theirs is tooted as the perfect relationship.

Also she also loves him for more than his appearance. The series makes several references to her "old
soul" attitude which we have failed to discuss here. There personality types
have striking similarities in that, while he is ages old, she acts as such in her
communication with him and people close to her.

What people close to her, outside of the Cullens?

Her emotional color wheel may not fit it and may not show it, but clearly the books display a certain sense
of "maturity" in her persona that compliments the age of her vampire beau.

I fail to see her maturity.

2. Edward can't read her mind
I think we could look at this as that kind of "playing hard to get" mentality.

Sort of.

We all have those friends who are oblivious to their attraction. Or one who doesn't get it or makes it hard for the other member of the relationship. Around them are people who "get them" but the actual work that the partner must do to understand the one they love makes them love them... does that makes sense?

How is that relevant?

Edwards own insecurities and his inability to know everything attracts him to bella because their relationship is all about the trust and the realness of it, he can't use his ability, so it makes the relationship more human.

Alright, but I think you missed my point. .

3. "Don't let them see friends.... kidnap and car engines and watching people
sleep"
To be fair, you are right... much of this borders on the creepy, but remember
most books go for the over the top to illustrate devotion.

Too much of a good thing is a bad thing, devotion included.

If they didn't they wouldn't make good fiction.

It isn't good fiction already.

There wouldn't be enough to illustrate the devotion
they have to each other.

But WHY are they devoted to each other? They barely met and they're suddenly in love.

Once again this is the ability of a vampire being use out
of context. I am sure there are people who are love struck and heart sick on
some girl or guy... who watch them any chance they get... maybe not so much
as stalking... but certainly desire to see them everywhere they go... who may
even dream of sleeping next to them, or watching them sleep. The only reason
this occurs in Twilight is because Edward can get away with it, simply a part of
the fantastic storyline of Twilight.

That doesn't mean it isn't creepy as hell. The text still supports it, which makes it creepier.

As far as the kidnapping and the car engine are concerned, that again is taken
out of the context of the dangers. The story makes it clear there were dangers
involved and if your significant other were best friends with a bunch of druggie thugs,
would you not try and do everything in your power to keep them away from such
dangers, even if they assured you their friends would NEVER let anything happen
to them.

Jacob is a druggie thug? Also, I wouldn't take the engine out of my girlfriend's car. That's going a bit too far. .

When you are that in love, you don't trust anyone else to take care of the
one thing that makes you happy... So you become a desperate person. It's taken
to the dramatic because of the fantasy of Vampire's and Werewolves, but its a type
and a shadow of the helplessness we all feel when we are apart from those we care
for too deeply for our own good.

Edward has shown he can Jacob to take care of Bella.

4. Co-dependency
I can't argue this, because honestly I have a gravely different opinion of these kind
of issues then most modern men and women, and it is not an argument I'd get into
over twilight, actually, it's not an argument I'd ever get into.

Good for you.

It would take far too much and would require to many ifs and buts to explain. But suffice it to say; there are some situations where you are right... about 98% of the time to be honest... and then there are the select few (which are the people most novels are about anyway) that love and are safe in that love... that honestly can't live without eachother... but thats okay.

Usually that happens when people are elderly, not when they've known each other for about a year.

It also goes into the fantasy again... the fact that she can't live without him, and he  can't exist without her is okay because they could always be able to be together forever.

She didn't have to get so annoying about it, though.

5. Chemistry
Thats kinda personal opinion don't you think? Chemistry is how you see it. Many
different reasons are behind why some people get together... sometimes it's opposites,
some times similars, sometimes it's just one wierd common interest...

But they DON'T have any common interests. They don't have anything in common. Even Dominique and Roark had something in common.

no couple is the
same in their reasons for getting together... at least not entirely.

Except they don't really have any reason to get together, except for, "Oh, hey, I saw you looking at me and fell in love."

6. School friends
This goes with my old soul thing. She just doesn't connect to these kids. Notice how when
she leaves Arizona, she makes mention of these friends in Arizona...

She does? From what I remember, she was a loner in Arizona.

but they seem like a distant worry, and a after thought rather than a pain in her heart?

As someone who has switched schools five different times, I can tell you that isn't how it goes. Friends are important. It's human nature to be social.

The girl clearly seems to be one who wafts through school life, clinging only to the fringes of it's society. People love her for the same reason we loved audrey hepburn and grace kelly. They were alluring, and mysterious, and they didn't give you everything you wanted. It's that old style draw,
the one that makes every head turn when she goes in a room. The beautiful thing about it is that she has NO CLUE it's happening, her self image is one of a clutz and a freak...

She's only clutzy when the plot demands it.

a speck on the radar. Thats how it's so easy for her to slough off these friends... They seem juvenile
to her, and she also feels as though they wouldn't so much care if she fluttered out of their
lives just as quickly as she arrived.

Really? If she's just a speck on the radar in her eyes, she'd me more flattered that the more popular kids in school instantly accepted her.

You honestly see this book series exactly the way I figure most people do.

Thank you for calling me a sheeple.

And that is totally
okay. I may not understand it, and I may have a different view... but thats what is soooo
awesome about books. Is that it's rare for two people to read one and get the same story
out of it... its why I don't think books should become fads... it makes it hard for those who
love a story to really enjoy it over and over again... because they feel they have to justify
their enjoyment of a book... and you should never have to justify your literary choices to anyone.

~Allykat

I don't mind if books are fads, because if people want to follow fads, it is their prerogative. The people who really like books will stay even after the trend dies down.

[MiriaRose]

. . Oops.

[ha~ma]

The funny thing about Twilight is it's not much worse than most popular fiction. I saw a Matrix fan the other day talking down Twilight and I had to laugh (For anyone that can't think for themselves: the Matrix is easily more stupid than Twilight). There are so many other films / books that are just as bad but aren't target marketed towards the teen market. Why don't these catch hate? Because people only look at the maturity of the themes (high school is pretty easy to pick apart, sorry guys) and don't critically think about what's going on in what they're watching / reading.

The bad thing about Twilight is that(like a lot of other fiction like it does) it's part of a social engineering machine that tries to make women dependent on men and unable to do things for themselves.

[fleur_fraise]

I dislike Twilight. I read the first book and read summaries of the others. The main reasons why I dislike it:

1. It is badly written.
Stephanie Meyer has a simplistic writing style, but tries to jazz it up by tossing in random adjectives that she likely found while rifling through a thesaurus. Some books can do this well, particularly ones written in Victorian times, like Alice in Wonderland or A Little Princess. However, Twilight just seems silly. Additionally, There is no plot for most of the first book. What's the conflict? There's some conflict regarding their relationship near the beginning of the book, but then nothing happens until the bad guys show up more than halfway through the story. And the characters do not grow or develop. They are exactly the same at the beginning of the book as they are at the end.

2. It gives bad messages.
Twitards cry about how ~*devoted*~ Edward is to Bella, while their relationship is more abusive than dreamy. Edward both emotionally and mentally abuses Bella. He keeps her away from her friends and family, making it so that he is the only one she can turn to. He will forcefully keep her from seeing her friends, but then suddenly leaves, claiming that he is "dangerous." When he returns, that only serves to draw her even closer to him. Edward coerces Bella to marry him by refusing to have sex with/vampirize her, and also frequently tells her that she is wrong/stupid so that she will stay with him because she can't manage otherwise.
Also, the book is quite sexist in many ways. All Bella wants to stay young and pretty, and she cooks and cleans. She doesn't want to go to college or be successful, she just wants to marry Edward and have children. Her mother is shown as flighty and not a good parent. Other women in the series are shown as being as unintelligent and clingy as Bella and her mother. Plus there's the imprinting, which also falls until pedophilia and child grooming, both of which are illegal.

3. The author/the fans are crazy.
This isn't really the most valid reason to dislike something, but it is a factor. I could go more in-depth, but I don't think I need to.

[AllyKat]

Thank you for calling me a sheeple.

Sorry... thats not how I meant that to sound, I simply meant
that I expect how you feel about the books out of people, it makes
sense for most people to see the books the way you do. A very
logical and common-sense oriented person sees the situation just
as you do. Perhaps it's because I see things so off-kilter when it
comes to romance that I make sense of the series in a positive way.

I applaud your ability to quote, honestly... I don't think I have the
patience at this time to go through and refute each argumentation,
and this'll be my last post on the subject for the night because I
just don't feel we are getting anywhere, and I hate to waste your
time fighting a frivolous battle, clearly we both feel a certain way
on the subject and no amount of refutation will change that.

Though it does seem we do agree on a few clear points, I will
close my rebuttal with this;

Twilight is a very fantastic story, and a lot of it's elements range far
outside of normal circumstances for a relationship. It is outlandish
in it's story arc and progression because thats how it moves the plot
along, with all the crazy monsters and their shenanegans thrown in.
Edward is adverse to Bella's relationship with Jacob not for his personality,
but for his being a WEREWOLF in no other way does Edward dislike
Jacob, infact, he often made mention that Jacob would be better for
bella then he. The fantasy takes prescidence over the realism in these
situations, which can make it confusing, and that I respect. Their love
doesn't make sense to people because our society doesn't cater to this
kind of love. But in truth, the love without the pre-tense is a historical
situation. People fall in love in movies and books and songs and poems
without any rhyme or reason all the time. Also, there are a lot of ways
to show that devotion that clear the spectrum that starts with the feverish
beating of your heart and ends with making love. Just because she can't
steel herself away from his embrace and just because she wants to hold
his kisses longer doesn't make her a nympho (or really, it doesn't make her
obsessed with sex, she like any warm blooded human wants him, but it's
only later, once they are really talking about being together forever, once
things start to progress to eternity, that that really becomes an issue) and
while her feelings may be blatant, the fact that they aren't acted on in
full atests to their commitment as a couple doesn't it? If they were both
that lustful, wouldn't they get frustrated and just go find someone else?
Something more than desire has to be holding that girl to him and him to
her or else they'd have gone off with other people a long time ago.

Let me mention a quote of yours:

ME: but... taking a step
outside any relationship.. there are things that could be seen as wrong or
awkward or abusive.

YOU:
In normal relationships, people do not say, "You aren't allowed to see your best friend."

Whenever was it stated that edward and bella are anything less than completely
ABNORMAL. It's a human and a vampire for peats sake!

To finish, Edward and Bella are an odd instance, the exception to the rule.
They are old souls, and connected by that fact and their shared personality of being
the a-social dissociative fly on the wall's. They dream of more, they observe and
ponder, and they are empathic to eachothers inner turmoil and love eachother because
they see so much more in eachother than they see in themselves, and they are willing
to go the distance to show it.

*shrugs* I dunno, thats just how I see it but once again there are a million ways to
interpret a book...  why should Twilight be any different.. I just think when you
start trying to base your love life or how your love life should be off a vampire
and a human girl in a love triangle with a werewolf, you should put down the
books and go outside for some fresh air...
 
LOL!

~Allykat

[TomtheFanboy]

The bad thing about Twilight is that(like a lot of other fiction like it does) it's part of a social engineering machine that tries to make women dependent on men and unable to do things for themselves.

Oh I see what you did there.
First you dog the Matrix and then you say twilight it a "machine".
Niiiiiice.

[ha~ma]

The bad thing about Twilight is that(like a lot of other fiction like it does) it's part of a social engineering machine that tries to make women dependent on men and unable to do things for themselves.

Oh I see what you did there.
First you dog the Matrix and then you say twilight it a "machine".
Niiiiiice.

Is there anything wrong with my point? Actually try to argue a point to me. I fail to see how your trolling / baiting in the last two topics in which you've responded to me has contributed to a discussion.

[oslapedo]

I figured I wouldn't like Twilight so I didn't read it, end of story. If people don't like something maybe they should just ignore it instead of wasting their time dwelling on it.

[TomtheFanboy]

Wow ha~ma, way to go. Your skills of interpreting EVERYTHING I do as a personal attack are as sharp as ever.

Should we go talk about DJ Hero now that I've played the game?

Just move on, everything is not about you. I wasn't baiting or trolling at all, it was a funny coincidence.

I figured I wouldn't like Twilight so I didn't read it, end of story. If people don't like something maybe they should just ignore it instead of wasting their time dwelling on it.

Ahhh, people might do that if other people didn't enjoy it so much. So much that it got in people's way and annoyed them somehow. Twihards get the same pariah treatment as Narutards have gotten more because of the fans than of the show itself. There's all sorts of horrible rip offs of both that are much worse but nobody rants bout them being horrible because nobody is screaming about how awesome they are.

Also, dwelling on it is not a waste of time. It's either entertaining or cathartic for the person complaining. Both of which provide stress relief and a normal activities. When such complaints and debates become to stressful for the annoyed person they are unhealthy. When such complaints and debates become too targeted at their opponent they are hurtful.

[ha~ma]

Wow ha~ma, way to go. Your skills of interpreting EVERYTHING I do as a personal attack are as sharp as ever.

Should we go talk about DJ Hero now that I've played the game?

Just move on, everything is not about you. I wasn't baiting or trolling at all, it was a funny coincidence.

I never said everything was about me, you're the one going out of your way to post on me. That's not paranoid coincidence.

[MiriaRose]

Thank you for calling me a sheeple.

Sorry... thats not how I meant that to sound, I simply meant
that I expect how you feel about the books out of people, it makes
sense for most people to see the books the way you do. A very
logical and common-sense oriented person sees the situation just
as you do. Perhaps it's because I see things so off-kilter when it
comes to romance that I make sense of the series in a positive way.

I'm biased against the story in that I really dislike romance novels. Twilight follows a format of romance writing I find degrading, which probably is why I originally began to dislike it.

I applaud your ability to quote, honestly...

Thank you.

I don't think I have the
patience at this time to go through and refute each argumentation,

I honestly wouldn't be able to read long posts if I didn't break them all up into tiny parts and refute them. xD I tend to TL;DR.

and this'll be my last post on the subject for the night because I
just don't feel we are getting anywhere, and I hate to waste your
time fighting a frivolous battle, clearly we both feel a certain way
on the subject and no amount of refutation will change that.

Actually, this debate cheered me up and didn't waste my time at all, and debates aren't all about winning. Goodnight, though. ^^

Though it does seem we do agree on a few clear points, I will
close my rebuttal with this;

Twilight is a very fantastic story, and a lot of it's elements range far
outside of normal circumstances for a relationship.

Yes, but if you take away the fantastic parts of it, you can insert the plot into other genres and settings.

It is outlandish
in it's story arc and progression because thats how it moves the plot
along, with all the crazy monsters and their shenanegans thrown in.

The plot of the first book seems to be that Edward and Bella fall in love. James and his buddies don't show up until the end, which makes it seem like an afterthought.

Edward is adverse to Bella's relationship with Jacob not for his personality,
but for his being a WEREWOLF in no other way does Edward dislike
Jacob, infact, he often made mention that Jacob would be better for
bella then he.

However, that is no reason to get overly jealous about him.

The fantasy takes prescidence over the realism in these
situations, which can make it confusing, and that I respect.

It's not so much the fantasy as it is how messed-up their relationship is.

Their love
doesn't make sense to people because our society doesn't cater to this
kind of love. But in truth, the love without the pre-tense is a historical
situation. People fall in love in movies and books and songs and poems
without any rhyme or reason all the time.

The problem is how blatant it happens. I wouldn't care if it was a love-at-first-sight thing if it didn't seem like Bella's love for Edward is only because he's good-looking and rich.

Also, there are a lot of ways
to show that devotion that clear the spectrum that starts with the feverish
beating of your heart and ends with making love.

Again, my problem is because they seem to be devoted to each other all throughout the relationship, even when they first meet.

Just because she can't
steel herself away from his embrace and just because she wants to hold
his kisses longer doesn't make her a nympho (or really, it doesn't make her
obsessed with sex, she like any warm blooded human wants him, but it's
only later, once they are really talking about being together forever, once
things start to progress to eternity, that that really becomes an issue) and
while her feelings may be blatant, the fact that they aren't acted on in
full atests to their commitment as a couple doesn't it?

Her constant gushing about Edward's copper brass whatever coloured hair and his beautiful eyes in addition to no common interests between them made it seem as if she only cared about his good looks.

If they were both
that lustful, wouldn't they get frustrated and just go find someone else?
Something more than desire has to be holding that girl to him and him to
her or else they'd have gone off with other people a long time ago.

Or they just really want each other, and it wouldn't be the same if it were another person. How many men do you know who are made of ice?

Let me mention a quote of yours:

ME: but... taking a step
outside any relationship.. there are things that could be seen as wrong or
awkward or abusive.

YOU:
In normal relationships, people do not say, "You aren't allowed to see your best friend."

Whenever was it stated that edward and bella are anything less than completely
ABNORMAL. It's a human and a vampire for peats sake![/quote]
It is, but that doesn't mean you can't identify with them.

To finish, Edward and Bella are an odd instance, the exception to the rule.
They are old souls, and connected by that fact and their shared personality of being
the a-social dissociative fly on the wall's.

But they don't have anything to talk about aside from how much they love each other. If two people are exactly alike, the relationship wouldn't work out.

They dream of more, they observe and
ponder, and they are empathic to eachothers inner turmoil and love eachother because
they see so much more in eachother than they see in themselves, and they are willing
to go the distance to show it.

I'm still not convinced they love each other, but meh.

*shrugs* I dunno, thats just how I see it but once again there are a million ways to
interpret a book...  why should Twilight be any different..

I'm simply restating what the text says.

I just think when you
start trying to base your love life or how your love life should be off a vampire
and a human girl in a love triangle with a werewolf, you should put down the
books and go outside for some fresh air...
 
LOL!

~Allykat

I couldn't agree more.

[DancingTofu]

I think that the problem here is that Drama is stupid without comedy, tragedy, philosophical archetypes, or artistic language.  If you take those out of any story, you have 25-cent romance novels.  As far as I can tell, that's what Twilight (all of it) is.  To hell with plot.  To hell with characters.  Those are NOT the key facets of good literature.  The characters in Harry Potter are one-dimensional and the plot is predictable, but the writing style is artistic and the books are riddled with comic relief which makes them rather enjoyable, compared to The Lord of the Rings Trilogy (a so-called masterpiece), which had a fantastic plot and very deep characters, but the writing style was bland and it lacked flavour, so I put it down after 700 pages and moved on to more intriguing books.

I have not read any of the Twilight Saga and never intend to, but from the symptoms that have been described to me, I have diagnosed it as a bargain bin book, just as undeserving of the "hype" it receives as much of the other media polluting the brains of the masses.  However, I commend the marketing efforts of the producers; economically speaking, it's quite brilliant.

[CloudStrife32]

I think that the problem here is that Drama is stupid without comedy, tragedy, philosophical archetypes, or artistic language.  If you take those out of any story, you have 25-cent romance novels.  As far as I can tell, that's what Twilight (all of it) is.  To hell with plot.  To hell with characters.  Those are NOT the key facets of good literature.  The characters in Harry Potter are one-dimensional and the plot is predictable, but the writing style is artistic and the books are riddled with comic relief which makes them rather enjoyable, compared to The Lord of the Rings Trilogy (a so-called masterpiece), which had a fantastic plot and very deep characters, but the writing style was bland and it lacked flavour, so I put it down after 700 pages and moved on to more intriguing books.

I have not read any of the Twilight Saga and never intend to, but from the symptoms that have been described to me, I have diagnosed it as a bargain bin book, just as undeserving of the "hype" it receives as much of the other media polluting the brains of the masses.  However, I commend the marketing efforts of the producers; economically speaking, it's quite brilliant.

You quite literally, just summed up all my feelings towards this series.
I usually try to stay away from debates like this, but after reading that Charles said, I just had to agree with him.

Now, before this ends up as like a HUGE fight over everything, this thread should just be abandon.
Everyone has their opinion and is allowed to state it, but that usually just leads to a lot of arguments.
I happen to know a lot of people who like the series, and a lot of them who hate the series. And since a lot of the ones who hate it, are here on the forums, I was hoping I wouldn't have to hear about it.
Because really, all of you have posted in this thread, already get enough of the 'Twilight' series, outside of this forum, so why bring it up here?
If you really didn't want to hear about it, like I don't want to anymore, you'd just pretend like this thread doesn't exist. That's just my opinion, though.

[dshwshr55]

If you don't want to hear anymore on this thread, you don't have to keep coming back to it, because I'm sure there's going to be more close-minded opinions and rebutals to come. I don't think I've ever once seen an arguement end something like, "Oh, I didn't think of it in those terms before. I guess you're right!" No, each individual has their own principles views on the subject and won't deviate from them, no matter what, and things don't get anywhere like that.

Writers/film makers ARE getting a little smarter these days, I've ALSO noticed. Vampires are the marketable thing right now, like ninjas and magic was a little while back, apparently. You can even read about them in the newspaper funnies! But they know what's most important in these types of media these days: profit. They get something catchy and popular and go all out on it until it's dead (again, no pun intended. That's been happening quite a bit, lately >.<).
It's the same with text pr0n romance novels, too. Writers take popular subjects (like vampires, for a random case >.>) and write whole series' that catch on with their audience, but almost always go downhill (my wife is a romance freak).

And now for an intermission! ..... Ironically, Britney Spears is the intermission music ~_^

Did you know that until a few weeks ago, I thought the Twilight series was something Disney made. Only Disney makes sitcoms with actors that young and picture perfect faces, aside from soap operas. It sounds like Twilight isn't far off the mark, though. A Disney soap opera. You can tell because it's also the topic of every magazine, from MAXIM to Weekly World News at the grocery checkouts. Haha, my wife said she'd like to punch in each of the stars because they look so beautiful, just to mess up that perfect face! XD

  

[Cassiopeia]

Ha 8}

[DancingTofu]

I'm going to have to agree with Amy on the fact that this topic is really beating a dead horse.  We know how much half of you loath Twilight and the rest of you are obsessed with it, and I'm really tired of hearing about it.  Everywhere I go I see ads for it.  It's an overbearing pop-culture presence which is distracting people from more stimulating thoughts and discussions.  Unless someone has a very good reason for keeping this topic unlocked, I'll lock it tomorrow some time. (giving you some time to come up with very good reasons, just in case they exist)

[dshwshr55]

It's just another rant thread, but at least it's bringing people together, if just to exchange ideas (well .... to put it in a nice way ... kind of). You don't have to lock it just because you don't like it. Like I said, just don't read it. There are other threads that are far, far, FAR more pointless than this one; you can't deny that. There's already 3 pages just since it was created yesterday.
If there were no threads that brought about different views, let alone arguements, this would be a VERY dead forum.

[DancingTofu]

I don't have a problem with civilized arguments, or even pointlessness, it's more the fact that you literally can't expose yourself to society without encountering this subject.  It's like when everyone's discussing politics around presidential elections time, minus the huge impact that the subject has on the world.

[dshwshr55]

But what does world-wide renown have to do with locking the thread? It sounds like a it's-popular-so-I-don't-like-it syndrome.

[DancingTofu]

Beating a dead horse.

It's an exhausted discussion topic.  This topic is no more legitimate than a DDR vs. Guitar Hero thread would be in Gaming.  At best you would get a bunch of regurgitated arguments.  Like you yourself said: there aren't going to be new ideas brought to the table; nobody's opinions will be changed by this topic.

[dshwshr55]

Well, you got me there. The only reason I was somewhat defending the thread was because I like stir up controversy everywhere I go. I'm sure there is at least ONE Twilight thread that this whole thing would better fit under, if you consider the name of this topic. If the subject matter got more on track with the literary point of view and standards of literacy relating specifically to the books (which is what I get from the title), would the thread stay open?

[TomtheFanboy]

This is gonna get locked!
Ha! That's hilarious!

So religion, politics, gender, pe-.... forest creatures that are sex offenders, and twilight are now off limits.
Rock and Roll!