Your Opinions: What's Retro, Retro Enough, and NOT Retro Enough?

[Prinz Eugen]

Last year this category had FOUR conditions, of which each entry had to pick TWO:

(a) MIDI music from 'classic' game console systems.
(b) Audio source is anything created before 1983.
(c) All anime is 20th century.
(d) Video must appear as monochrome or black and white.
     You may add a sepia tone to the light color for the
     'faded old film' look. (Grainy film treatments, longitudinal
     vertical scratches, or 'strands of hair and other cruft
     stuck in the projector window' effects are optional.)

- - - - - - - - - - -

Editors loved it, and the audience did too, and the judges
had SO many qualified and well-made entries they even
bled over into other categories.

This year, I have a mind to get rid of (a)
and make it the remaining three, pick TWO.

What's left over now is to discuss:
Audio cutoff period or other constraint, and
Video cutoff period or other constraint.

Whatever we come up with, we have to write a definition that is clear for editors and judges to understand what sources are OK or NOT.

More comments in a second post.

[Prinz Eugen]

Here are six other criteria from a previous thread that may be of interest here, to pick and choose from:

(1) All video content was released in Japan before 1995; The author's opinion was that 1995 puts the entire category before the "Evangelion revitalization of anime" which is arguably the beginning of contemporary anime, "... and if you watch something from '94 and then something from '96 (or Evangelion) the quality jump is almost always obvious."

My comment: a 1995 cutoff will be 15 years old by Kumoricon 2010. Not bad, seems reasonable.
Also note that Sailor Moon 'counts' as 1992.

(2) The entire video is in black and white or sepia, things like scratches and hairs are a good addition; this one has been directly carried over as I think it's fairly flawless for the category.

(3) All of the source material was originally black and white; allowing for I Love Lucy style "colorization" of old anime, which I think remains in the spirit of #2.

(4) The music one... [the author was] unsure how to deal with this one; "there's a lot of new music that sounds/feels Retro. It's practically a genre at this point." The author suggested that audio and video have the same cutoff year as criteria, but the entry only has to satisfy ONE.

(5) Define the whole category as: "Silent-style film using Classical music."

My comment: This would probably drive toward using instrumental music as well, because vocals seen like they would distract from the text-card effects common to silent movies.

(6) Using the concept "Retro" in a creative visual way, such as the use of projectors, film tape, etc; In this way Nostromo's "Running Man" fits the category and honestly [the author] felt it was more "Retro" than a lot of the Retro submissions (such as the Trigun one.)

My comment: Please remind me - which Trigun AMV? I checked the final playlist and didn't see any in 'Retro.' Feel free to post a link.


Another fact-oid, whether 'here nor there' or not: Personally I have a visceral reaction to eye designs and hairstyles as indicative of 'old school' or not. I also have a particular fondness for 5-sided and 6-sided designs of the late 1990s, and some of the earlier to mid 2000s follow-ons which added certain arched elements. Maybe it's that 'anime you first got into' effect...

[murder_of_raven]

Another fact-oid, whether 'here nor there' or not: Personally I have a visceral reaction to eye designs and hairstyles as indicative of 'old school' or not. I also have a particular fondness for 5-sided and 6-sided designs of the late 1990s, and some of the earlier to mid 2000s follow-ons which added certain arched elements. Maybe it's that 'anime you first got into' effect...

Y'know, I think you have a point here. Thinking about it, a lot of the recent "retro anime" craze (I'm thinking Casshern SINS, Metropolis, Kaiba, 009-1) evoke a very similar visual appearance as their older influences with the serious plus of them being simply higher quality animation. Perhaps we could add something in that allowed for series done in the style of really /old/ anime (like 1970's)... I'm not sure how to phrase a new rule that allows for this but I have a very good idea for an AMV like this...

My comment: Please remind me - which Trigun AMV? I checked the final playlist and didn't see any in 'Retro.' Feel free to post a link.

Gee, looking back I have no clue . Umm, I /think/ it might've been to "Born to Be Wild" or something? I remember thinking (during the contest) "If I'm going to lose this category, its going to be this video". Granted, that was just my speculation but I was very impressed nonetheless.

[Mitsukai Mizu Amaya]

I think that the midi music from game console rule should be defined more. Such as list the consoles, because PSX is considered classic for some, and not for others, etc.

I also agree with the 1995 cut off date. ^^

[Prinz Eugen]

My comment: Please remind me - which Trigun AMV?

Gee, looking back I have no clue . Umm, I /think/ it might've been to "Born to Be Wild" or something?

That one was done to Outlaw Star.

"Born to Be Wild" is such a geezer-rock song that when the line

...lookin' for adventure... (or what ever comes my way) ...

goes by I like singing it as "Lookin' for my dentures."

[murder_of_raven]

My comment: Please remind me - which Trigun AMV?

Gee, looking back I have no clue . Umm, I /think/ it might've been to "Born to Be Wild" or something?

That one was done to Outlaw Star.

Oh there we go! Yes, thinking back it was certainly Outlaw Star. Very good video, btw.

[RemSaverem]

Curious: If a franchise started before your cut off date, but continued after it (& I'm not even sure to how many that would apply), would only those portions of the franchise that were made public before your cut-off date be eligible for inclusion?

Also as for music, are only originals from before your cut off date eligible, not any modern remakes of songs?

[murder_of_raven]

Curious: If a franchise started before your cut off date, but continued after it (& I'm not even sure to how many that would apply), would only those portions of the franchise that were made public before your cut-off date be eligible for inclusion?

Also as for music, are only originals from before your cut off date eligible, not any modern remakes of songs?

My own answers would be that they were eligible until they made a significant switch in their artwork (a lot of times long running shows don't update their art quality) and that yes, remakes would be okay... then again, you are talking to the girl who won with a modern remake that barely made the date cut last year (literally by months) so I know how upsetting being on the other side of the date would be...

[Prinz Eugen]

OK - Final modifications:

The "RETRO" category will be THREE items pick TWO:

a) Music created during or before 1995.
b) Anime series OVA premiere date or Episode 1 air date during or before 1995. For series originating before the cutoff year, footage up to 26th episode past the cutoff year may be used. Entrants are strongly advised to include text documentation (in an e-mail, or on a .txt file for main-in entries, etc) for series or episodes not clearly created before the cutoff. Remastered anime is permissible as long as the work was done by or under the direction of the original creator.
c) Video using modern anime past the cutoff must be desaturated to appear as classic "black/white"-looking footage.*

* Note: this actually includes sepia tones, infrequently approaching red hues.

90% of the total project duration (including all bumpers) must satisfy TWO of the three conditions (a) (b) (c) above.
Also welcome are other old-film treatments such as graininess, scratches or surface noise, ('change the film reel' blips,) simulations of dust-bunny fragments that get stuck in the projector window, or the 'nuclear sunrise' burn-through effect when film jams and the hot projector bulb melts the cellulose. (Hey remember before 'Safety Film' - when movie film was NITRO-cellulose?! FOOF!)

Your final comments before we make this 'freeze' sometime next week?

[murder_of_raven]

I was about to ask some incredibly specific, veiled questions; instead I have simply opted to send a PM.

I do have one public question for discussion however: Are remakes of old songs in or out? I remember some discussion earlier but no real consensus was reached...

[NARUNIK]

Im not sure how this is organized and all but..

Astroboy.. That has to be retro to anime.

[Prinz Eugen]

FWIW: The last judges' panel to evaluate the Astroboy re-masters of 2003/2004 considered them faithful enough to the original to "count" as OK.

[Prinz Eugen]

... I have simply opted to send a PM.

Everyone, please do -NOT- do this.

For all who wish to contact me privately, (and you are ALL welcome!)
please write me an e-mail at:

guy1656
[at]
opusnet
[dot]
com

I do not wish to use forum messaging systems because I want no more than EXACTLY ONE place to check for messages. Just like I have ONE mailbox on the street at my house.

Keeping life simple...

[Pie Row Maniac]

Anything pre-1999 I consider retro.

[Prinz Eugen]

Anything pre-1999 I consider retro.

We did pre-2000 last time (for the anime.)

What I want is when we can get to move the term 'Oldies' up 20 or 30 years.
I can hardly wait to call Pearl Jam, Jewel, Insane Clown Posse, and Alanis Morrisette 'oldies.'

[darkhero]

b) Anime series OVA premiere date or Episode 1 air date during or before 1995. For series originating before the cutoff year, footage up to 26th episode past the cutoff year may be used. Entrants are strongly advised to include text documentation (in an e-mail, or on a .txt file for main-in entries, etc) for series or episodes not clearly created before the cutoff. Remastered anime is permissible as long as the work was done by or under the direction of the original creator.

so does this mean i can or cant use funimations remastered dragonball z collection?

[Prinz Eugen]

Remastered anime is permissible as long as the work was done by or under the direction of the original creator.

so does this mean i can or can't use funimations remastered dragonball z collection?

Good question - thank you!

Certainly the judges' panel will make a final determination, but I'd guess that their basis would be on how authentic (true to the original) the restored work looks. One problem that happens when American groups like ADV, etc, get their hands on anime is that they try to 'Americanize' things here and there; an example of a big no-no is overlaying the contents of a Japanese bento with American foods. (BAD! smack! swat!) So if eel, ume-boshi, sugared squid in wakame, etc are 'covered,' watch out.

Other than that, to the extent that the restoration looks authentic, you should be fine.

[DarthTaco]

I do have one public question for discussion however: Are remakes of old songs in or out?

I would also like to know the answer to this question.

[murder_of_raven]

I do have one public question for discussion however: Are remakes of old songs in or out?

I would also like to know the answer to this question.

Haha, I didn't even end up using that song (I was going to make an AMV to Pink Martini's Brazil) but I still think this is an extremely important question to answer, even if it's a "no".

[Prinz Eugen]

I do have one public question for discussion however: Are remakes of old songs in or out?

Remakes or 'covers' of older music are fine - BUT the REMAKE *also* has to have been created during or before 1995!!

So you can use a 1970's-era remix of some older ragtime music. (It's out there, too - I have a vinyl recording of Eubie Blake playing Scott Joplin's music, but on a pedal harpsichord...)

But you cannot use a 2002 cover of a 1980s song.

ONE LIKELY EXCEPTION might be classical music played on classical instruments as called out in the score,** because unless the conductor imposes some jarringly modern interpretation (Leonard Bernstein was notorious for this - he made EVERYTHING sound like the Boston Pops) then arguably the only difference between the modern recording and a pre-1996 recording of classical would be improved recording technology.


** some classical works include instruments such as wind machines and even ordnance (1812!)

[DarthTaco]

Okay, good. That's all I was wondering! :]