TRULY SCARY--Terrorism aimed at Jews in Chicago (packages from Yemen)

[RemSaverem]

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/1029/Yemen-packages-what-is-known-so-far-about-credible-terrorist-threat

My family & half my childhood friends are Jews from Chicago, and my Israeli Chassidic Rabbi & Rebbitzen relatives are giving workshops in the area this weekend & were just flying in.

Prayers for all to be safe from any terrorism, anywhere in the world....

[Blackstar]

: / you know I work for UPS and I really don't want to go to work

[MiriaRose]

I don't even know what to say. D:

That's just. . Frustrating and depressing. Why can't people just get along and not hate each other?

[RemSaverem]

I remember I was afraid to go to the post office after the anthrax deaths. I pray for all your safety!

[Washougal_Otaku]

I don't even know what to say. D:

That's just. . Frustrating and depressing. Why can't people just get along and not hate each other?

It's because of stuff like this...

"Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews. - Sahih Muslim 41:6985"

"The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: The best of the actions is to love for the sake of Allah and to hate for the sake of Allah. - Abu Dawud 40:4582"

"The strongest bond of faith is loyalty for the sake of Allah and opposition for His sake, love for the sake of Allah and enmity for His sake - Abu Dawud 40:4582 "

"The Jews were made to come down, and Allah’s Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina, and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men. - Ishaq 464"

"The Apostle said, ‘Get him away from me and cut off his tongue.‘ - Ishaq:595"

May Adonai be with the Jews of Chicago and around the world.

[@random]

I don't even know what to say. D:

That's just. . Frustrating and depressing. Why can't people just get along and not hate each other?

It's because of stuff like this...

I disagree.

It's because people will always find ways to objectify some group as Them, and decide that They don't deserve the same rights as Us. Manyfold that number of passages can be found in the Bible (and a whole lot of other religions' documents) excusing all sorts of inhumanity if it's Them versus Us. And it's hardly limited to religion. It's been done in the name of almost anything you can imagine. One of my favorite quotes:

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." (Voltaire)

The biggest absurdity of all is looking at another human and deciding they're "less human" than you are. People put all sorts of fancy, pretty-sounding names on it, but that's what hate and egocentrism (in all their guises) boil down to.

[Washougal_Otaku]

Okay, I respect that you disagree, but you're also wrong.  I know a family that moved here to the States from Oman who have family members that are/were in Al-Qaida.  (That being why they moved away, too).  Those passages I provided are some of the reasons why some Muslims are violent towards people of different faiths, Jews and Christians in particular.

[@random]

_{(Speaking personally)}

Please be careful here. Every religion has dirty laundry. Every single one of them. And there's a unifying characteristic that all of that dirty laundry has in common: It stinks.

I don't want this thread to become a pile of dirty laundry, but that's what will happen if we start throwing it around - because everyone knows about dirty laundry that they can throw right back.

[Washougal_Otaku]

Okay, with that being said,...

Don't take on the assumption that people are saying EVERYONE when they clearly aren't.

[RemSaverem]

First to Random: I totally understand the precautions you, as a mod, are taking. Your Voltaire quote is devastatingly true. There are also things in the Torah that seem to me ridiculous (particularly in Leviticus), not that they would lead to violence against others but just that I do not understand their motivations (some of the dietary restrictions, clothing restrictions). There were passages such as "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" (honestly I have no idea where that comes from but I've heard it cited) that always bothered me when I heard them.

Then to Aaron: First of all I'm impressed you know the word Adona'i. Second thank you for your sentiments. Third, thank you for your compendium of quotes. I was rather shocked by them & did not know they existed.

To both of you: IMHO, there is a difference between saying "All Muslims believe this" or "All Muslims intend to practice this" and saying "Here are some examples of the types of passages in the Koran that have been abused by a handful of terrorist campaigners to manipulate believers into violence." The first two would be vast overgeneralizations and dangerous stereotypes. The third, tragically, is fact. IMHO, citing some of the passages of the Koran that are cited or twisted by sects to catalyze anti-Jewish or anti-Western terrorism is no different than citing which passages of the Bible are cited or twisted (depending on your point of view) to justify bans on gay marriage. I am by no means equating Prop 8 with suicide bombers, (though I can also see the indirect link between gay teens feeling dehumanized by Prop 8 & its proponents & gay teens committing suicide). I am simply saying that accurately documenting passages of holy texts that have questionable/disturbing content and/or that have been abused to tragic/sacreligious ends is not itself a statement meant to generalize to everyone who believes in other parts of the text. People generally pick & choose what parts of a text they feel resonate with their own lives. I really have no interest in much of Leviticus because, for example, as a vegetarian, I already don't eat cow nor pig, so it doesn't much matter to me whether the authors thought Adona'i would be happier if we eat cow than if we eat pig. I believe and I pray that there are plenty of moderate and progressive people out there who honestly don't even know those murderous messages are in the Koran. Maybe they've never read those parts. Maybe they read a different translation. Maybe when it was shared with them it was contextualized either that those are metaphors and not to be literally enacted, or that those are sentiments that the author felt millenia ago that should never be acted upon in the modern day, I have no idea what's actually taught. I did take a class on Women & Islam, taught by a woman from Turkey who actually was married to a Jew, but the class was mostly about Egyptian middle-class feminism and about varying views amongst women in the Middle East as to whether wearing burka (etc.) was constraining or liberating. (Some liked that men were not distracted by their physicality and could hear their opinions. The main point was that it was for those women to decide their own priorities, not for Western elite women to tell Middle Eastern women what they "should" fight for.) Anyway...Sorry for the stream of consciousness...

[Blackstar]

1. I was kinda of annoyed that my boss at UPS!!!!!!!! did not even know about this event

2. I will keep this short and sweet we should not judge all Muslims by the actions of Al Qaeda like we should not judge all Christians by the actions of the West Bro Baptist church or The Army of God and Jewish people by the actions of Jewish Defense League. It is simple, there is always extremes, heck, I am Atheist and I don't want to be judged by the actions of Richard Dawkins. Be less ecocentric and look though the looking glass.

[RemSaverem]

@ Blackstar: (1) Wow, that is TRULY SCARY. You would think every single employee, let alone bosses, would've been put on highest alert, not only at UPS but every cargo shipper!
BTW: I only just read today that something like 60% of cargo is shipped on passenger flights, but with lesser scrutiny than passengers go through...scary...
(2) Agreed.
Is he the one who wrote the ancestor book that's like 1000 pages that someone just told me about? An evolutionary biologist?

[Blackstar]

@Rem It just shows the conners that are willing to be cut so the a big business can make more money and It was just a normal day at UPS, no added added procations, just my stacking boxes into a truck going to Denver. Very annoying >_<*

[RemSaverem]

Yowza. I had really believed there would be added precautions.
I know my office, for example, gets several packages a month shipped to us by air, including things packed in dry ice. I can't even imagine how much or little scrutiny is given to packages, it had not yet been among areas of life in which I had fears, it now is.
Best wishes for your safety. Is your job unionized? Do you have a union rep who could try to ask for enhanced safety measures as part of collective bargaining?

[Blackstar]

Ya we are part of the teamsters. We put alot of trust into the costumers to tell us if they are sending us "a hazmat" and we trust them not be a band items (Explosive 1.1
Explosive 1.2, Explosive 1.3, Explosive 1.4B, Explosive 1.4F, Explosive 1.4G, Blasting Agent 1.5D, Poison Gas, Inhalation Hazard, Spontaneously Combustible 4.3, Dangerous When Wet, Poison, Inhalation Hazard, Infectious Substance, Radioactive Material II and III and Fissile). But this also would assume that the costumer sould know what a hazmat would be. Example dry ice would have a miscellaneous hazmat sticker.

[RemSaverem]

Thanks. Here are examples of people reputedly prompted to alleged terrorist acts by the vitriol of the likes of Fox "news" and Glenn Beck:
http://www.bnet.com/blog/advertising-business/6-terrorists-inspired-by-fox-news-and-glenn-beck/6399

[@random]

Okay, with that being said,...

Don't take on the assumption that people are saying EVERYONE when they clearly aren't.

@Washougal: I neither said nor implied that. Nor did I assume it - I noticed at the time that you took pains to avoid those words, and worded my response accordingly. Please don't attribute words or thoughts to me that I didn't say or think.

If you'd like to talk about it further, PM me any time and I'd love to continue the discussion. You remain an interesting person to talk with.

~

@Anyone: For general reference, my earlier request wasn't specifically directed at Washougal.

I would ask - again, only on a personal basis - that people not bring up different religions' dirty laundry. It never seems to end well.

I wouldn't ask as a moderator unless such a discussion had erupted in flames, which isn't a given.

~

People generally pick & choose what parts of a text they feel resonate with their own lives.

QFT. (And thank you for all of the kind words.)

[reppy]

Eh. ^^;  I wrote a short post that delved into this topic a little deeper based on my experience dating a Muslim girl for several years and the research I did.  But, given the previous post, I think any discussion, regardless of its nature, would be best left off the forums for now. ^^

[RemSaverem]

<<Edit.>> My cousin just informed me that as far as he heard one of the synagogues that was targeted was the one where he was Bar Mitzvah'd on Lake Shore Drive and the other was "a gay one" by which I am guessing that he means a congregation that is overtly welcoming to LGBTQ families....

Eh. ^^;  I wrote a short post that delved into this topic a little deeper based on my experience dating a Muslim girl for several years and the research I did.  But, given the previous post, I think any discussion, regardless of its nature, would be best left off the forums for now. ^^

I would be interested if you want to PM me about it. <<Edit>> I had not even known enough about Islam to know there are multiple holy books, let alone that some of the most pernicious, seemingly murder-inspiring quotes are from a book that precedes the Quran.
FYI, back when I was a PeaceWorks staff person I used to coordinate our Middle East Peace Picnics, featuring not only local Jews, including local Israelis, and local Muslims, including Arabs, but also local Palestinians, including local Palestinian Christians. That was in the mid-90s, i.e., way before 9/11 (may all victims rest in peace). Since that time, the 11th of every month there's an interfaith service in town (I don't go to it, but think it's a cool idea).

[Animeman73]

This is a reminder of what happens when you let fanatics run any religion no matter what it is. Let us continue to strive to fight for our freedom and end the evils of these terrorist cowards who hide behind the veil of religion.

[Wuntvor]

Reading through this post made me think of the following email I received some time ago.  I feel that it isn't totally inappropriate to post it here.  I give this as an example of how religious quotes can be turned around in absurd ways.

I want to make it clear that I am not making light of the situation that prompted this discussion in the first place, and I mean no offense to anyone with this post.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Its a long one, but well worth it.

This is brilliant!  We need more Prof's with a sense of humor like this one.


In her radio show, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance.  The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet.  It's funny, as well as informative:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law.  I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can.

When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination . End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations.  A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians.  Can you clarify?  Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7.  In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24.  The problem is how do I tell?  I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9.  The problem is my neighbors.  They claim the odor is not pleasing to them.  Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath.  Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death.  Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality.  I don't agree.  Can you settle this?  Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight.  I have to admit that I wear reading glasses.  Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27.  How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm.  He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend).  He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot.  Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16.  Couldn't we just burn
them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan,
James M. Kauffman, Ed.D. Professor Emeritus, Dept. Of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education University of Virginia

P.S. (It would be a damn shame if we couldn't own a Canadian)

[Washougal_Otaku]

I noticed at the time that you took pains to avoid those words, and worded my response accordingly.

Um, actually, I didn't, assuming that you're referring to my first post.  That one was straight forward what I thought, with several passages found on a website that one of the Oman family members showd me once.  My remaining posts, I'll admit, came from an automatic self-defense mode that comes with Social Anxiety Disorder.  I looked back on your past responses, and believe that this is where my misunderstandings came from.  I don't usually care much for responses that sound as if though I've forgotten something obvious and doesn't address what I did say (which was kinda short & vague).  I also feel passionately about reminding people that there is logic to the hatred from some of these people, something that I've seen second-hand from people who used to live there.

Wow, that took longer than I thought it would.  Anyways, my point is, I apologize for my misunderstanding of your statements and misleading you as to what I said and meant.

You remain an interesting person to talk with.

This is the main reason why I made this apology public, because I feel the same way about you, random.

[Washougal_Otaku]

Thanks. Here are examples of people reputedly prompted to alleged terrorist acts by the vitriol of the likes of Fox "news" and Glenn Beck:
http://www.bnet.com/blog/advertising-business/6-terrorists-inspired-by-fox-news-and-glenn-beck/6399

Okay, so some right-wingers are crazy, but I'm sure there's a list just like it for liberals, too.

1 - Sounds like the cousin gave his/her personal insight to it; I doubt Beck encouraged that sort of thing.  (Though I don't blame him for hating Murray that much).
2 - That dude was just sick in the freaking head.  Give him the chair.
3 - Again, another sicko looking at the simple words in the wrong way.
4 - I'm still waiting for something that indicates FOX is at fault.
5 - Sounds like FOX was the victim, here.
6 - Okay, that one I can see your point, but how many liberals SHOULD have been in prision and put on a list like this for saying similar things about Bush?

The last line is key: "I’m not saying Fox supports terrorists. I’m saying Fox inspires them.

"

[Animeman73]

There are fanatics in both political extremes. And that's why I choose to be a moderate. But as to what that blogger said I've got just one thing to say, "WHAT IN THE NAME OF GOD ALMIGHTY HAVE YOU BEEN SNIFFING TO MAKE YOU THINK THAT LOAD OF RUBBISH!?!" Fox News supprts terrorism and terrorists? That's got to be the biggest load of malarky on ANY side of the Mississippi!  It's painfully clear these lone wolf people are sick in the head and should be locked up and have the key thrown away.

[Washougal_Otaku]

^ Yup!

[RemSaverem]

My point related back to how there are people who do not physically go to extremes just because they have read Muslim texts that appear to tell them they can/should. There are also people who are capable of watching Fox "news" without going to extremes. But then, just as there are some who either genuinely are inspired by and/or feel justified by certain Muslim texts' diction, to engage their murderous selfish violence, there are also some who, whether you want to call them extremists or plane bat-#$#% crazy, either genuinely are inspired by and/or feel justified by certain modern western political polemicists' words.

In other words: Someone who is looking for excuses to kill can find something to twist in anyone's words.
But that fact does not excuse folks from responsibility to endeavor to avoid using inflammatory diction they know *could* be construed as rationale for murder/terrorism.

[jaybug]

I wondered about the timing and location of the targets. Chicago, just after Rahm Emmanuel left the White House. I think the point was to make the mayoral candidate look bad, because he is Jewish, and had been to Isreal during the first Gulf War.

That is unless the target was the Ba'h'ai (sic?) center in Wilmette, just north of Chicago proper. But wouldn't it be the Iranians then?

I also wonder why the US and not Europe. I would think that getting bombs to synagogues in France would be a piece of cake. They're being burnt left and right over there the past couple of years. And no one seems to mind, except for those who worship there.

It also seems that a growing anti-Jew sentiment is creeping into the American left. To me that is. I think perhaps some part of that is the Evangelicals are embracing them, and part is the left embracing Muslims, or being Muslim sympathizers??? something.

According to the Economist newspaper, America is going anti-religion in general. Youths today are not church going at a rate of close to 30% according to that paper.

[Washougal_Otaku]

@Rem - FOX News shouldn't be held responsible because some crazy people took something as an excuse to kill.

Also, your "" thing you're doing to FOX News shows bias from you, which is sad.  I, for one, like FOX, especially compared to CNN.  It's not because I prefer a particular party over the other, it's not because I think CNN is full of BS, it's because of the smaller things; the last example that I saw was on a map of the New York/New England areas of the US.  "Rhode Island" was written over Cape Cod.  "New Brunswick" was written over the southern part of Maine.  I'm thinking that either someone forgot to insert arrows or someone REALLY failed at geography growing up.  I have yet to see something THAT bad from FOX News.

FOX also reports stories from a neutral perspective, except stories that other news medias don't even cover.  Right now, in fact, I'm watching FOX News; they're reporting on a school district that approved of having their fundings going towards having teachers getting cosmetic surgery, rather than going towards something the schools could actually use, like more teachers, supplies, or repairs.  This was on last night, too.  I haven't heard this story on CNN, ABC, or CBS News.

@jaybug -
             

[reppy]

@Rem - FOX News shouldn't be held responsible because some crazy people took something as an excuse to kill.

Also, your "" thing you're doing to FOX News shows bias from you, which is sad.  I, for one, like FOX, especially compared to CNN.  It's not because I prefer a particular party over the other, it's not because I think CNN is full of BS, it's because of the smaller things; the last example that I saw was on a map of the New York/New England areas of the US.  "Rhode Island" was written over Cape Cod.  "New Brunswick" was written over the southern part of Maine.  I'm thinking that either someone forgot to insert arrows or someone REALLY failed at geography growing up.  I have yet to see something THAT bad from FOX News.

Really?  Fox News has been caught plenty of times doing stuff like that.  Except they seem to have this tendency of "mistaking" which party a corrupt politician belongs to.  It always seems to benefit Republicans. ^^

FOX also reports stories from a neutral perspective, except stories that other news medias don't even cover.  Right now, in fact, I'm watching FOX News; they're reporting on a school district that approved of having their fundings going towards having teachers getting cosmetic surgery, rather than going towards something the schools could actually use, like more teachers, supplies, or repairs.  This was on last night, too.  I haven't heard this story on CNN, ABC, or CBS News.

My guess is that this is an isolated incident and it is not indicative of widespread behavior.  Therefore, I can understand why CNN, ABC, or CBS News did not report on it.  In my opinion, Fox News in general has an anti-union bias, especially towards the teacher's union.  So I'm not surprised they would look for an opportunity to make them look bad.

Other news networks have their bias, too.  I don't really watch any of the major news network regardless of an allegedly "left/right" bias, they all have a corporate bias.  (To me, being a corporate liberal means you're not a liberal.  Then again, I'm so disgusted by most of the mainstream "liberals" and "progressives" that I identify as left-wing instead.)

It also seems that a growing anti-Jew sentiment is creeping into the American left. To me that is. I think perhaps some part of that is the Evangelicals are embracing them, and part is the left embracing Muslims, or being Muslim sympathizers??? something.

My guess is that some large percent I'm pulling out of my butt of "anti-Jewish" sentiment on the left is the direct consequence of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.  And of that percentage, I imagine a left portion of them are actually people opposed to Zionist ideology as opposed to actual hatred of Judaism or Jewish ethnicity.  (I'm not trying to pick sides on this issue, just pointing out why there is a real or perceived "anti-Jewish" sentiment in some left-wing circles.)

And I'm sure there are plenty of people that just have a hatred of anything religion related.

[Washougal_Otaku]

Really?  Fox News has been caught plenty of times doing stuff like that.  

I've never seen them confuse an America state with a Canadian province.  As for the corrupt politician thing, I do remember seeing an example of this, as well as FOX apologizing for their mistake.

My guess is that this is an isolated incident and it is not indicative of widespread behavior.

I did say a school district, so, yeah, it is an isolated incident.  FOX is reporting on it because it's important.  A school district is burning their funds so that their ugly teachers can be "less ugly."  There's no reason for that.  As someone who aspires to be a future educator, that makes me sick.  The fact that FOX cared enough to talk about it says a lot to me, especially since the others aren't.

(To me, being a corporate liberal means you're not a liberal.  Then again, I'm so disgusted by most of the mainstream "liberals" and "progressives" that I identify as left-wing instead.)

What?

My guess is that some large percent I'm pulling out of my butt of "anti-Jewish" sentiment on the left is the direct consequence of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.  And of that percentage, I imagine a left portion of them are actually people opposed to Zionist ideology as opposed to actual hatred of Judaism or Jewish ethnicity.  (I'm not trying to pick sides on this issue, just pointing out why there is a real or perceived "anti-Jewish" sentiment in some left-wing circles.)

And I'm sure there are plenty of people that just have a hatred of anything religion related.

There's a lot more to it than that, from what I've seen and experienced as someone who used to be in volved in the media.  I'm not going to go more into it.

[reppy]

(To me, being a corporate liberal means you're not a liberal.  Then again, I'm so disgusted by most of the mainstream "liberals" and "progressives" that I identify as left-wing instead.)

What?

A lot of people claim MSNBC / CNN / etc have a "left-wing" bias.  They probably do when it comes to social issues.  But when it comes to the economy, they have a corporate (i.e., self-interest) bias.  Since a good portion of left-wing activists oppose the idea of corporate personhood, I find the idea of being a liberal espousing corporate views to be at odds with their alleged ideological affiliations.  So a "left-wing" or "liberal" network that pushes corporate views isn't "left-wing" to me, at least on the economy.

[Washougal_Otaku]

Oh, okay, now I get what you were saying.

[reppy]

Yeah, hehe.  I think I may have had a point in there I edited out earlier, or thought my point was clear by what was implied in my imagination or ....  I think they call those "enthymemes" (which "is an argument in which one or more of the propositions is suppressed or taken for granted.." according to the Internets.)

[@random]

^{(Still speaking only personally.)}

First... I'm glad to have been proven wrong thus far. No one's spontaneously combusted, and a few piles of dirty laundry haven't led to a mountain of it. You guys have much more restraint than I've seen elsewhere on the 'Net. (^_^)

Second... I think it's a mistake to think of guilt as a Boolean, on/off value. There's a spectrum of inciting violence. You could say "Is this seat taken?" to the wrong person and it would be the final straw for them to pull out a gun and start shooting people. It's not your fault, but technically what you said did "incite" it. Or on the other extreme, you could manipulate an otherwise-reasonable person into believing "The man walking towards you is going to kill you and your loved ones if you don't kill him first", in which case you'd be at the very least complicit in his death. (IMO, you would bear almost full responsibility. But that's just me.)

Looking at two examples that lie somewhere in between those poles:

• Convincing people that "THEY are coming to take your guns and enslave you and destroy the country if 'someone' doesn't poison them, shoot them, or hang them first".
• Convincing people that "THEY are coming to conquer and enslave you and desecrate your religion if you don't start an inquisition, or blow them up, or put them to the sword first".

Both examples are clearly inciting violence. It is quite true that whether they succeed or not has more to do with the listeners than it does with the speaker - in fact, I rather suspect that violent Fox listeners, Muslims, Christians, etc have a lot more in common with each other than they do with sane Fox listeners, Muslims, Christians, etc. And depending on your beliefs, you might even think that they're justified in doing so because of some perceived greater good. But regardless of whether they're proud of it or try to disclaim it, anyone who incites violence does bear some responsibility for it.

Yeah, hehe.  I think I may have had a point in there I edited out earlier, or thought my point was clear by what was implied in my imagination or ....  I think they call those "enthymemes" (which "is an argument in which one or more of the propositions is suppressed or taken for granted.." according to the Internets.)

I hate it when I do that. It's one of the risks of editing and re-editing and RE-editing, in my case. (^_^)

(That, and letting the conversation pass by.)

[RemSaverem]

http://www.outfoxed.org/
...potentially helpful viewing to contextualize my use of quotes.
I do not overgeneralize to the entire station, for the simple fact that Glee is on Fox.

Thanks to random for some helpful examples of what 'inciting' can look like (or not).

http://www.newshounds.us/
That's a site for folks who scrutinize Fox for inaccuracies/bias etc.

[reppy]

I liked the Outfoxed documentary.  It seemed a bit over the top in certain spots, but I felt like it had a lot of great information.  Also, in addition to newshounds.us, MediaMatters.org is really good, too.  I used to really enjoy Jamison Foser and Eric Boehler's articles.  I don't know if they're still active on there, though. ^^

Downsides to MediaMatters.org:
- The comments section can get a little nasty.  It didn't used to be that way when I first started going there back in the mid 2000s.
- I think they play the "political correctness" police a little too much.  It's nice to have a catalog of all the outrageous things people say, but sometimes it seems like they're trying reallllly hard.


While I'm on the topic of left-leaning things, I'd recommend the documentaries The Corporation and The Power of Nightmares.  Last time I checked, both of them were available on http://video.google.com

[RemSaverem]

A pal asked as his Facebook status for his pals to name the movie that most truly scared us. I listed "The Future of Food", largely about the Frankenfoods made by Monsanto, and Terminator Genes, and the evils of Monstanto suing farmers for "patent infringement" when pollen from their genetically engineered crops crosses property lines and contaminates others' crops without the others' consent.

Yet guess who squelched their own reporters' well-researched documentation about how Monsanto's rBGH in milk could cause untold human cancers & was banned for such in Canada & Europe? I'll give y'all one guess; it rhymes with socks. http://www.organicconsumers.org/rbgh/akrewins.cfm
This is one of the most dire and most concrete examples of why I insist on using quote marks around "news" if referring to Fox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL1pKlnhvg0   Truly disturbing proof of massive corporate collusion & fraud. Companies buy the news. Really. Or at least they bully outlets into squelching news, even news with potentially deadly implications for millions.

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A pal asked as his Facebook status for his pals to name the movie that most truly scared us. I listed "The Future of Food", largely about the Frankenfoods made by Monsanto, and Terminator Genes, and the evils of Monstanto suing farmers for "patent infringement" when pollen from their genetically engineered crops crosses property lines and contaminates others' crops without the others' consent.

Yet guess who squelched their own reporters' well-researched documentation about how Monsanto's rBGH in milk could cause untold human cancers & was banned for such in Canada & Europe? I'll give y'all one guess; it rhymes with socks. http://www.organicconsumers.org/rbgh/akrewins.cfm
This is one of the most dire and most concrete examples of why I insist on using quote marks around "news" if referring to Fox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL1pKlnhvg0   Truly disturbing proof of massive corporate collusion & fraud. Companies buy the news. Really. Or at least they bully outlets into squelching news, even news with potentially deadly implications for millions.

That video you posted is from The Corporation.  Really quite scary.  Basically the government said, "Hey, it's not a LIE to OMIT information."

I find it funny that milk that advertises as "rBST free" has to have a little note from the FDA about how no noticeable difference has been found between milk treated with rBST, etc.  Wow.  rBST free needs a warning; rBST doesn't?

[RemSaverem]

That video you posted is from The Corporation.  Really quite scary.  Basically the government said, "Hey, it's not a LIE to OMIT information."

I find it funny that milk that advertises as "rBST free" has to have a little note from the FDA about how no noticeable difference has been found between milk treated with rBST, etc.  Wow.  rBST free needs a warning; rBST doesn't?

Wow. Thank you. I had no idea. I will have to see that movie!
And yes, that always bothered me, about the labeling, that that was an obvious kow-towing to industry/lobbyist pressure.

Back to the topic at hand, terrorism. A few more scary incidents today, in Greece, in Germany, and at PDX Airport in Portland :
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101102/ap_on_re_eu/eu_greece_mail_bombs
http://www.kval.com/news/local/106539818.html
http://www.kmtr.com/news/local/story/Delta-Airlines-Box-cutter-blades-found-on-flight/AOHyyxRmBUqkIBh7GpO6og.cspx?rss=191

[RemSaverem]

@ Mods, I do not know if Off-Topic & Chat threads are immune from guidelines discouraging double-posting, but I don't know when anyone will next post here, and there appears to have been another, potentially related suspicious (possibly terrorism) package incident today:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101104/ap_on_bi_ge/as_india_delta_emergency

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Someone cue Al Franken for an "Oy, oy, oy" segment.

[RemSaverem]

Someone cue Al Franken for an "Oy, oy, oy" segment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-HQrc2svUo

Thank you. I had never heard this before.

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Someone cue Al Franken for an "Oy, oy, oy" segment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-HQrc2svUo

Thank you. I had never heard this before.

It's Oy, Yoy, Yoy?  No wonder I couldn't find anything on YouTube for it.

Oh, vey.  *smacks forehead, then mutters something indecipherable in Yiddish*

[RemSaverem]

Do you really know Yiddish? I generally know only a few body parts, insults, religious words, exclamations, slang...but they're all unique and fun to say! I always get a kick out of the shtick when Dean says "We've got bupkes" on Supernatural.

[reppy]

Naw, I wish; I just think Yiddish sounds really cool.

(Ever watch Curb Your Enthusiasm?  I love the scene when Larry's dad is hanging out with the prostitute and smoking pot, for his glaucoma(!) and he comments on how ebonics sounds like Yiddish and they they start going off on a tangent..) ^^

[Washougal_Otaku]

I used to know how to tell a young lady that she was breathtakingly gorgeous.

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I do that the universal way: I stare really hard, breathe heavily, and leave my mouth gaping.  It's the same in every language.  'Course, the response tends to be the same and you'd think I would have learned by now...

(I'm kidding, of course. I have a little more tact than that!)

[RemSaverem]

Thank you for the LOLs, lovely lady-dressing men. Guess the question would be, how do you respond when that same attention is heaped on you when folks actually think you are ladies! "Shayna Maydela" is "beautiful young lady". I know of no equivalent for "handsome hunk". Only "Mensch", which is basically the type of nice, helpful guy your parents would let you marry. Says a lot about Yiddishkeit that the most common descriptor for a girl is about her looks and for a guy is about his manners. Haven't seen CYE but plan to find the ep with Jorge Garcia from Lost. I heard 1 lady speak Ebonics when I was a kid and thought she was riffing off the "jive" from "Airplane!" but don't recall it sounding like Yiddish. That would amuse me.

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Thank you for the LOLs, lovely lady-dressing men. Guess the question would be, how do you respond when that same attention is heaped on you when folks actually think you are ladies! "Shayna Maydela" is "beautiful young lady". I know of no equivalent for "handsome hunk". Only "Mensch", which is basically the type of nice, helpful guy your parents would let you marry. Says a lot about Yiddishkeit that the most common descriptor for a girl is about her looks and for a guy is about his manners. Haven't seen CYE but plan to find the ep with Jorge Garcia from Lost. I heard 1 lady speak Ebonics when I was a kid and thought she was riffing off the "jive" from "Airplane!" but don't recall it sounding like Yiddish. That would amuse me.

That's actually the same episode I was just speaking of. ^^  Also, as far as I know .. no one usually drools when I'm in cosplay .. but .. I have been groped a few times. D:

[RemSaverem]

Ooh! Yay! *mental note to search when / if gets 'net back at home*
And not surprised