Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!

[MiriaRose]

Whyyy do people think I excuse things because Democrats do them? I can't think of any time I've done that in five to six years, much less on this board.

Hell, the only reason I'm a democrat is so I can vote in primaries if I happen to be in a state where they're closed. I'd rather be a Peace and Freedom member or an independent.

all the CIA's assassination plots had either failed or been abandoned

whoopsie-doo. This was pre-1975, btw. source.

And here's an article about Bush revoking Executive Order 66 12333, which made it illegal for the CIA to target someone for assassination.

We shouldn't have killed anybody. Like I said, we're not in any position to judge who deserves to live or die, even Hitler. Doesn't judging who does make us just like him?

[jaybug]

Oh heck no. Killing Ted Bundy does not make us Ted Bundy, or Jeffery Dahmer, or any other serial killer, or mass murderer. It just lets us sleep at night. I'm all for expanding the death penalty for serial rapists too. AND if the crime is so bad we have to lock them up for too long also. Being in prison for so long it doesn't serve anyone. Especially if they ever get out. What can they do with their lives, and are they fit to be around non-felons? Either kill them , or get them out.

The only reason I mention Democrats, is because it twigs your little ear, and you speak from the far left Miria. lol that's an evil lol by the by.

[lychee-twist]

Whyyy do people think I excuse things because Democrats do them? I can't think of any time I've done that in five to six years, much less on this board.

^ Respect, man. I can't stand people who will blindly follow something just because it's their party or who they voted for. I voted for Obama, and it is my duty as an American to question his decision, especially if I disagree with them. Checks and balances, thank you.

[MiriaRose]

Oh heck no. Killing Ted Bundy does not make us Ted Bundy, or Jeffery Dahmer, or any other serial killer, or mass murderer. It just lets us sleep at night. I'm all for expanding the death penalty for serial rapists too. AND if the crime is so bad we have to lock them up for too long also. Being in prison for so long it doesn't serve anyone. Especially if they ever get out. What can they do with their lives, and are they fit to be around non-felons? Either kill them , or get them out.

I like rehabilitation better than punishment, especially seeing as how there have been various studies done that show punishment doesn't work. Positive and negative reinforcement do.

Like I said: Who are we to say who is fit to be around who?

As for how we're like mass murderers? We are, because we think its our responsibility to choose who lives and who dies. Maybe it's for different reasons, but it doesn't change the fact that we think we're so superior for whatever reason that we get to say who deserves to have a life.

Wasn't it Jefferson who wrote that everyone has a right to life? Criminals are still human. Murderers, rapists, etc. are still human. The fact that they've done something atrocious does not change that fact.

The only reason I mention Democrats, is because it twigs your little ear, and you speak from the far left Miria. lol that's an evil lol by the by.

Haha, the party isn't even leftist. They're conservatives on the political compass, but they're more left than the republicans so everyone calls them leftists.

I'll admit to being on the faaaar left, though. I'm not expecting everyone else to be, though. That'll come with time. 

Whyyy do people think I excuse things because Democrats do them? I can't think of any time I've done that in five to six years, much less on this board.

it is my duty as an American to question his decision, especially if I disagree with them. Checks and balances, thank you.

thisthisthis.

[Malaria]

I find it difficult to form opinions on Osama bin Laden's death because there's so little information currently available about what exactly happened. It doesn't help that I'm extremely reluctant to believe anything the government tells me about any important military action.

I'm also not sure that it matters so much that he's dead. It's not like he didn't have lieutenants. It's not like there aren't other charismatic extremists who feel that the US is systemically oppressive and immoral.

[Gryffinclaw Princess]

Bit off topic here...

Just thought I would point out that the Death Penalty is more expensive than just letting them live in jail until they die. All the states but one with the death penalty use lethal injection (the one other has not opted for li but also has no current executions because all other forms of dp have been looked down upon for one reason or another that I won't get into here). To get the four chemicals needed for an execution one needs to spend a lot of money. These aren't your average chemicals (except the saline they run through the lines after each of the other three to clean them) and fetch a high price. Plus, there can easily be issues with li which can harm the convict and cause need for another dose or execution 'ceremony.'

So in all actuality it's cheaper for our country to keep them locked up then actually kill them.

As for criminals in general. Some people just make bad choices. Someone can fall asleep at the wheel, get in a crash, have someone die because of that, and they end up in jail. Yes, some people deserve to be in there but others don't really. Everyone in prison (except the obviously insane people) is a normal person. They are human and act just like everyone else in the world. But they are just a bit messed up. Most don't feel sorry for what they did and some even agree they deserve to be where they are.
Both my parents are Correction Officers and work in a medium security prison with everyone from robbers to rapist to murderers. I hear so many stories and Miria is right. They are all just humans and act exactly like you and I do when you talk to them. If you didn't read their records you would never guess half of them did what they did.

[Washougal_Otaku]

So in all actuality it's cheaper for our country to keep them locked up then actually kill them.

It's really cheaper to keep someone alive for 20-30 years than it is to inject them with a chemical?  If that's the case, we should have the death penalty be a shot in the head with a bullet.  Get a box of them for $30 or so (depending on the gun) and you can kill off a bunch of people on death row.   Or how about this?  Grind them up into hamburger meat and serve it to other inmates.  Not only are you saving money on killing products, but you're saving money on food expenses!  (Of course I'm kidding about this idea; I'm not that sick!)

[Malaria]

The death penalty isn't just expensive because of chemicals, but because we have a massive appeals process that must precede every execution. That's paying for public defenders, prosecutors, judges, using up court resources, possibly going over forensic evidence again... And it's all vital, because the re-trial of a decent number of people with new technologies (ie DNA testing) has led to exonerations. It's those costs that make it more expensive than plain ol' room and board. And I don't want to live in a nation that will let itself callously abandon that expensive judicial process for thrift and expediency. That's terrifying.

And to sort of drag this back to topic, the fact that we have the world's greatest war machine is terrifying enough already.

[superjaz]

Both my parents are Correction Officers and work in a medium security prison with everyone from robbers to rapist to murderers. I hear so many stories

Oh hey my mom was a corrections officer.

Oh the stories!, and they end like "and they are being released next month"

[DaemonForce]

a lot of people have forgotten, I am trying to get them to remember.

11.Sept.01 never forget.
1.May.11, the avatar of terror has been destroyed.
Mission ****ing accomplished!

I know people dislike that fact that I am happy he is dead.

10 years. 10 long years and you're telling me people are displeased with the fact that you finally have some of this horrible weight off of you? [Edit by JeffT, moderator: Removed personal attack]

I remember that morning pretty clearly. I woke early 6AMish, sat at this same desk reading the news and freaked when I saw the first article. I left a message to McAlister that his life was in danger and to leave the trade center as soon as possible. When I left I was run over by a dumb driver[Edit by JeffT, moderator: Removed inappropriate inflammatory language] on my way to high school. I was late. After gym I went to my world history class and they tossed a TV into the room just in time so we could watch live footage of the 2nd plane ramming the tower. During the last class of the day we held a minute of silence for the dead. I had no family onboard the planes or in the towers but I can't even describe how everything that day changed me. How appropriate that I saw the events during a world history class. It changed my world forever. McAlister got out in time but was traumatized since it all happened right in front of him. I haven't talked to him since that day.

In a way its too bad that they were unable to capture him alive because I am sure there are victims who would have liked to have their say in court

I really wanted this for a while but we have a problem: Who would want to defend such a man? It wasn't going to happen. Add in the facts that Bush made it clear he would start the search for Bin Laden and he later admitted he just wasn't as focused on him as he said he was. During campaigns Obama made it clear that he would end the search and KILL Bin Laden. Believe me, I would have wanted to see a trial just as bad as you do but from the very beginning, it completely lost relevance. You know how if you get so many felonies you become a dead man walking? It's a lot like that: a point of no return. Our legal system no longer mattered when the threat of terror became a consuming force in every one of our lives.

Osama got the credit he wanted for such a horrible deed and became the avatar of terror. As consequence, we finally destroyed him. You see, the big deal isn't that the man is dead. The big deal is that the face of terror has been annihilated. Think about it. I can tell only very few of you can understand this(and you're awesome) so for those of you that can't, imagine organized terror without a figurehead. We will endure whatever possible retaliations come of this(if any). We are America, the sleeping giant. We are blessed with a ridiculously destructive power and are not meant to be disturbed out of fear that we may use it.

I've found that discourse over controversial subjects such as this are very educational.

Don't worry about it. Some people are simply one voice - one way. This is how cults and hate groups start(So what are you waiting for? Enter now for your chance to win!).

I freaking love that macro.

This is now my new wallpaper. Thanks.

Celebrating death?

Happy Deathday?

That makes you no better than Osama himself.

Wrong. It does make me better than Osama. In fact, anyone that celebrates the death of that horrible figurehead and manages not to terrorize and kill 3000+ innocent American lives during their lifetime is better than Osama.

I was raised around death and grew up in a military family. We don't want your praise for killing people and it's disgusting to label those we kill when we are no better than they are. Our soldiers are killers and murderers just like Osama and his men. If you talk down about them then you talk down about us as well.

[Edit by JeffT, moderator: Removed personal comments]

I was one of those way too smart kids way back when too.

I wish I was still young enough to know everything. That was the best part of my life and it's been gone for years. :/

This doesn't bring anyone back whom we lost 9/11.

It brought back my horribly darkened heart and turned a hopeless situation into a fighting chance. I feel a LOT better knowing that action has been taken and the damned have finally faced their execution. I'm all in favor of the death penalty. Bin Laden was clearly guilty as hell and I'm okay with his execution. He was not a man that could be rehabilitated. I'm convinced the death penalty does a better job of saving more lives than it destroys. I'm sure several Christians will agree with me. Remember, if it weren't for capitol punishment, we'd have no Easter. >.>'

This is all I'm going to say about this topic for a while. For once I'm happy and I want to remain as such for as long as possible.

[Edit by JeffT, moderator: Removed several instances of inappropriate content]

[MiriaRose]

EDIT: not even gonna bother.

[Jacob_Blackfeather]

a lot of people have forgotten, I am trying to get them to remember.

11.Sept.01 never forget.
1.May.11, the avatar of terror has been destroyed.
Mission ****ing accomplished!

I know people dislike that fact that I am happy he is dead.

10 years. 10 long years and you're telling me people are displeased with the fact that you finally have some of this horrible weight off of you? [Edit by JeffT, moderator: Removed personal attack]

I remember that morning pretty clearly. I woke early 6AMish, sat at this same desk reading the news and freaked when I saw the first article. I left a message to McAlister that his life was in danger and to leave the trade center as soon as possible. When I left I was run over by a dumb driver[Edit by JeffT, moderator: Removed inappropriate inflammatory language] on my way to high school. I was late. After gym I went to my world history class and they tossed a TV into the room just in time so we could watch live footage of the 2nd plane ramming the tower. During the last class of the day we held a minute of silence for the dead. I had no family onboard the planes or in the towers but I can't even describe how everything that day changed me. How appropriate that I saw the events during a world history class. It changed my world forever. McAlister got out in time but was traumatized since it all happened right in front of him. I haven't talked to him since that day.

In a way its too bad that they were unable to capture him alive because I am sure there are victims who would have liked to have their say in court

I really wanted this for a while but we have a problem: Who would want to defend such a man? It wasn't going to happen. Add in the facts that Bush made it clear he would start the search for Bin Laden and he later admitted he just wasn't as focused on him as he said he was. During campaigns Obama made it clear that he would end the search and KILL Bin Laden. Believe me, I would have wanted to see a trial just as bad as you do but from the very beginning, it completely lost relevance. You know how if you get so many felonies you become a dead man walking? It's a lot like that: a point of no return. Our legal system no longer mattered when the threat of terror became a consuming force in every one of our lives.

Osama got the credit he wanted for such a horrible deed and became the avatar of terror. As consequence, we finally destroyed him. You see, the big deal isn't that the man is dead. The big deal is that the face of terror has been annihilated. Think about it. I can tell only very few of you can understand this(and you're awesome) so for those of you that can't, imagine organized terror without a figurehead. We will endure whatever possible retaliations come of this(if any). We are America, the sleeping giant. We are blessed with a ridiculously destructive power and are not meant to be disturbed out of fear that we may use it.

I've found that discourse over controversial subjects such as this are very educational.

Don't worry about it. Some people are simply one voice - one way. This is how cults and hate groups start(So what are you waiting for? Enter now for your chance to win!).

I freaking love that macro.

This is now my new wallpaper. Thanks.

Celebrating death?

Happy Deathday?

That makes you no better than Osama himself.

Wrong. It does make me better than Osama. In fact, anyone that celebrates the death of that horrible figurehead and manages not to terrorize and kill 3000+ innocent American lives during their lifetime is better than Osama.

I was raised around death and grew up in a military family. We don't want your praise for killing people and it's disgusting to label those we kill when we are no better than they are. Our soldiers are killers and murderers just like Osama and his men. If you talk down about them then you talk down about us as well.

[Edit by JeffT, moderator: Removed personal comments]

I was one of those way too smart kids way back when too.

I wish I was still young enough to know everything. That was the best part of my life and it's been gone for years. :/

This doesn't bring anyone back whom we lost 9/11.

It brought back my horribly darkened heart and turned a hopeless situation into a fighting chance. I feel a LOT better knowing that action has been taken and the damned have finally faced their execution. I'm all in favor of the death penalty. Bin Laden was clearly guilty as hell and I'm okay with his execution. He was not a man that could be rehabilitated. I'm convinced the death penalty does a better job of saving more lives than it destroys. I'm sure several Christians will agree with me. Remember, if it weren't for capitol punishment, we'd have no Easter. >.>'

This is all I'm going to say about this topic for a while. For once I'm happy and I want to remain as such for as long as possible.

[Edit by JeffT, moderator: Removed several instances of inappropriate content]

I love you right now.

[luvan1me]

oh miria! please try! T_T i have tried to stand up to these kind of people but nobody has got the ... uh.. well i probably wouldn't bother either cuz they aren't worth my time, but....


someone please please PLEASE do it... i really don't know how to express my thoughts and feelings correctly online... someone just HAS to... i can't stand watching this ... person insulting people all throughout the forums.. it's driving a lot of us insane, and i am probably one of the few who got the horrid chance of meeting them in real life. please someone just defend us already from him!


and i'm NOT talking about osama... IF you couldn't get the hint already!

(and all of you who don't stand up and say something, i'm ashamed!)

@jacob: we will talk later <_<

[Malaria]

Luv: None of the rhetoric seems all that cruel so far. No need for the melodrama.

Daemon: If Osama went to a US civilian court (highly unlikely) he would've had a lawyer for sure. Unless he refused his right to one, but then he might be judged unfit to make that decision. Miranda is complicated! But necessary and I like that we have it. Anyway, people probably would've fought for the opportunity. Lawyers are this weird breed who are supposed to believe in the law above all else, so when it comes to something that might revolutionize or shake the practice of law, people who really love it will jump on the chance to participate. Or just 'cause they'd revel in controversy/the opportunity to make a name for themselves.
Of course, this is assuming he wouldn't have ended up in a military tribunal or one of the international human rights courts.

The argument that capital punishment is okay because we love Jesus is a weird one, since no one is generally all that happy about excellent people being killed with extreme prejudice. I'm not seeing how these two situations relate at all.

Lastly, I'm confused. You feel safer we've because the figurehead of one organization is dead? As far as I understand, terrorism is pretty grass roots.

Sorry for not going through and pulling quotes like I should. I'm lazy. :I

[lychee-twist]

If it makes a difference in this conversation, my boyfriend told me that the reason Bin Laden's body was dumped at sea was it followed the Muslim tradition and ceremony that a person is buried within 24 hours of their death. They dumped him at sea because it followed with that tradition and prevented a land burial becoming a martyr's tomb and inspiration to people who wish harm on others.

That's my understanding at least. If you want my now 24 hour opinion on the matter with people's reactions, it's this: No one is right. No one is wrong. This simply is. The only way you would probably be wrong is if you assumed that the war is over because of this event. No matter what happens, keep this moment in your mind when voting next year.

But according to the billboards around the world, the world's going to end on the 21st anyways so it doesn't matter anyways. *shrug* Party on the 22nd!

[lychee-twist]

Also, I found this thanks to reddit. This is a picture of Obama, Biden, Clinton, and staff waiting as the mission is underway. I thought that anyone who took an interest with this thread might find it interesting. It's a large picture so I'll post the link.
http://i.imgur.com/tjRP1.jpg

[Griff_the_dragoon]

@dameon force: just a quick question... were you loved as a child???

[DaemonForce]

I hate poking in this thread so soon but something is bothering me now.

They dumped him at sea because it followed with that tradition and prevented a land burial becoming a martyr's tomb and inspiration to people who wish harm on others.

That's the smart reason. Of course, knowing some of the killers I've met in my day, their brains are comparable to being laced with a few pounds of C4. A smart thought would probably destroy them. The order obviously came from a much higher rank to do a sea funeral. To me it doesn't matter who did the dirty work let alone who gave the order. The only question I have is why was this done so ridiculously fast? Does the public have visual confirmation? No. It's been more than 24 hours and we still don't have it. Something is seriously wrong here and I have the feeling it's going to be covered up just like the last blunder.

.......

We have to be on high alert right now. Without question. >.<'

[Griff_the_dragoon]

yup unloved it is ok girls you dont have to fear something like this

[Washougal_Otaku]

Celebrating death?

Happy Deathday?

Win.

[Griff_the_dragoon]

Celebrating death?

Happy Deathday?

Win.

^ fail

[StarryShay]

but seriously, debate is good, but try to remember to respect the opinions of others, guys. ~

[superjaz]

 I am a bit miffed that they picked Geronimo as his code name. Its too good a name for him, and insulting to native americans.

[Washougal_Otaku]

^ It doesn't even make sense.

Celebrating death?

Happy Deathday?

Win.

^ fail

^ Opinion noted.

[TheDevilsNightmare]

Wow a lot of paragraphs on this forum(heck am not gonna read so many). Well you guys celebrate osama death but if you dont know America was part of the 9/11 attack.  Bush and the government planned 9/11. Just look at all the twin towers they collapse from the bottom when it was hit from the top. Architects and Engineers even explained this years ago.. no need for me to get on this post anymore it be pointless. If you don't realize it was a inside job...

[Malaria]

Wow a lot of paragraphs on this forum(heck am not gonna read so many). Well you guys celebrate osama death but if you dont know America was part of the 9/11 attack.  Bush and the government planned 9/11. Just look at all the twin towers they collapse from the bottom when it was hit from the top. Architects and Engineers even explained this years ago.. no need for me to get on this post anymore it be pointless. If you don't realize it was a inside job...

Not all of us believe the evidence put forth by the Zeitgeist people. Not all conspiracy theories are convincing, not all "experts" know what they're talking about, and some of them are crackpots who just happened to get degrees. Any number of other architects or engineers can explain why the pressure, super-heating, and type of structure of the building caused the bottom-to-top collapse you just described.
There's a pretty big difference between having a healthy mistrust of your government and mindlessly believing all the anti-government propaganda.

Jaz: I think it was meant more in the high-adrenaline, jumping off a cliff sense.
But America, as a rule, sucks really awfully at giving First Nations their due.


I was watching last night's Daily Show just now, and Jon Stewart made what I thougt was an excellent point. For a long time now, Osama bin Laden has been the face of the Arab and Muslim worlds in the US. With him gone, and the focus steadily shifting to democratic revolutions, the stereotypes in the US of what it means to be Arab or Muslim should shift too. I'd rather we look at that part of the world and see people's movements than hatred.

[MiriaRose]

oh miria! please try! T_T i have tried to stand up to these kind of people but nobody has got the ... uh.. well i probably wouldn't bother either cuz they aren't worth my time, but....


someone please please PLEASE do it... i really don't know how to express my thoughts and feelings correctly online... someone just HAS to... i can't stand watching this ... person insulting people all throughout the forums.. it's driving a lot of us insane, and i am probably one of the few who got the horrid chance of meeting them in real life. please someone just defend us already from him!


and i'm NOT talking about osama... IF you couldn't get the hint already!

(and all of you who don't stand up and say something, i'm ashamed!)

@jacob: we will talk later <_<

Not gonna feed a troll. If he isn't trolling, then I'm not gonna reply to someone who can't debate without feeling the need to insult their opponents OR break the rules of the Kumo forums.

Considering I've seen friends' posts censored because they called certain people out for being trolls, I'd rather just do what I'm supposed to for once and report a post. But I get your point, and totally agree.

but seriously, debate is good, but try to remember to respect the opinions of others, guys. ~

thiiis. I'm not gonna reply to someone who will pick and choose which arguments of mine to rebut and ignore the rest, and I'm not gonna reply to someone who can't have debate without calling other people names.

Sorry, but I like debate on these forums because they're the type I normally only get at tournaments.

Wow a lot of paragraphs on this forum(heck am not gonna read so many). Well you guys celebrate osama death but if you dont know America was part of the 9/11 attack.  Bush and the government planned 9/11. Just look at all the twin towers they collapse from the bottom when it was hit from the top. Architects and Engineers even explained this years ago.. no need for me to get on this post anymore it be pointless. If you don't realize it was a inside job...

I haven't seen any good evidence supporting the Zeitgeist theory, so I really don't see any reason to believe it. Also, physics shows, as Malaria brought up before, that the bottom collapse makes sense.

Also, just gonna point out the million Iraqi civilians the US and NATO have killed in Iraq and the tens of thousands of Afghani civilians the US and NATO have killed in Afghanistan. And basically every war where we've specifically targeted civilians (Dresden bombing in WWII, Mylai Massacre in Vietnam, etc.). If you think that the US doesn't specifically target civilians, then go to bed, read some Zinn, and come back when you've educated yourself because even I suck at what I'm 'supposed' to do.

[Washougal_Otaku]

Also, just gonna point out the million Iraqi civilians the US and NATO have killed

Wow, way to over-exaggerate the numbers there, Miria.  However, you do make a somewhat good point.  I don't believe that we've been going out of our way to target innocent civilians.  Civilians do get hurt and/or killed in wars that occur in cities and towns; they always have.  I know that there have been some cases in history that speak to the contrary (you've actually named a couple of good examples), but I haven't heard anything that would support the idea that we've been doing that at all during the war on terrorism.  We've made mistakes, sure, and had mishaps, too; that's not the same thing as intentionally targeting people who are just trying to live their lives.

[superjaz]

Jaz: I think it was meant more in the high-adrenaline, jumping off a cliff sense.

I read online that it was because he was so hard to catch for so long, but considering that after capture he  became a folk hero, not really a good compairison for a terrorist

But America, as a rule, sucks really awfully at giving First Nations their due.

Oh do I know it, my family is native american.  My great grand mother didn't get citizenship until she was 25, when naitive americans were granted citizenship.  My grandmother has her native name as her licence plate, white elk woman, and a guy asked her if she belonged to a lodge.
Mine is whispering wind btw

[MiriaRose]

Also, just gonna point out the million Iraqi civilians the US and NATO have killed

Wow, way to over-exaggerate the numbers there, Miria.

You have no idea how much I wish I wasn't exaggerating. Citation. Citation 2.

However, you do make a somewhat good point.  I don't believe that we've been going out of our way to target innocent civilians.

Except we have been. Just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen on a regular basis. Check out .

Civilians do get hurt and/or killed in wars that occur in cities and towns; they always have.  I know that there have been some cases in history that speak to the contrary (you've actually named a couple of good examples), but I haven't heard anything that would support the idea that we've been doing that at all during the war on terrorism.  We've made mistakes, sure, and had mishaps, too; that's not the same thing as intentionally targeting people who are just trying to live their lives.

Like I said, just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Do you want me to point out the stories of US marines raping women with rifles in Vietnam and then stabbing their breasts with machetes? Do you want me to point out that when asked about the Mylai massacre a Vietnam veteran who spoke to my America in the 1960s class said that sort of thing happened all the time? I can't cite these for obvious reasons, but seriously, to claim that we don't intentionally target civilians is naive.

Dresden and the Mylai massacre were the two I can name off the top of my head. Here's another story.

Actually, you know what, I'm sick of the triggers that are coming up by reading these. I know it's Wikipedia but this has plenty of sources on direct deaths and cruelty by US and NATO forces in the Middle East.

Read The People's History of the United States. I know the title sounds like a communist country from the early 1980s, but it has plenty examples of US forces doing atrocities to civilians.

Ever heard of the Stanford Prison experiment? Look that up, too. It shows that human beings, when given this sort of power over people, will abuse it.

The examples I have cited are not outliers. This is the status quo. We have the privilege of not having to hear about these things unless we choose to.

But America, as a rule, sucks really awfully at giving First Nations their due.

Oh do I know it, my family is native american.  My great grand mother didn't get citizenship until she was 25, when naitive americans were granted citizenship.  My grandmother has her native name as her licence plate, white elk woman, and a guy asked her if she belonged to a lodge.
Mine is whispering wind btw

Uhhh Native American names, whut. From what I've heard from Native Americans, those are usually jokes parodying what stereotypes that white people have about them. Most Native Americans have 'normal' names that can look pretty WASPy at times.

[Washougal_Otaku]

You have no idea how much I wish I wasn't exaggerating. Citation. Citation 2.

They're saying "may" and I think they're just trying to make us sound worse than we are.

Except we have been. Just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen on a regular basis. Check out

I'm not buying it, and I see no reason why I ought to believe that one.  How do we know that this wasn't made up for the sake of making things look worse?

Like I said, just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Do you want me to point out the stories of US marines raping women with rifles in Vietnam and then stabbing their breasts with machetes? Do you want me to point out that when asked about the Mylai massacre a Vietnam veteran who spoke to my America in the 1960s class said that sort of thing happened all the time? I can't cite these for obvious reasons, but seriously, to claim that we don't intentionally target civilians is naive.

Yeah, the Vietnam War had a lot of examples of such horrible acts.  It also has a lot of examples of soldiers trying to fight that.  My grandfather was one of these people.  He and some of his troupe members convinced their senior officers that events like this shouldn't have been allowed, and they disciplined any soldiers found doing such things.

Ever heard of the Stanford Prison experiment? Look that up, too. It shows that human beings, when given this sort of power over people, will abuse it.

Actually, I have, and the study had some important results, so I see it as a good thing, BECAUSE it was so ugly.

Native Americans

Don't care.  I don't see the relevance in this case.

[superjaz]

Uhhh Native American names, whut. From what I've heard from Native Americans, those are usually jokes parodying what stereotypes that white people have about them. Most Native Americans have 'normal' names that can look pretty WASPy at times.

Native Names a joke?
Please don't judge all Native Americans by some you have talked to.
Every family is different.  I am sure some Native Americans don't have 2 names. In some cases parents pick the native names for their childern, in addition to a birth name that apears on legal documents.  Esp since the names tend to get picked once the child is older so its a name that suits them.

[JeffT]

Not gonna feed a troll. If he isn't trolling, then I'm not gonna reply to someone who can't debate without feeling the need to insult their opponents OR break the rules of the Kumo forums.

Considering I've seen friends' posts censored because they called certain people out for being trolls, I'd rather just do what I'm supposed to for once and report a post.

We did receive the report earlier, and I have now edited an earlier post accordingly. I apologize for the delay--a few moderators were carefully reviewing the entire thread and discussing it.

[MiriaRose]

You have no idea how much I wish I wasn't exaggerating. Citation. Citation 2.

They're saying "may" and I think they're just trying to make us sound worse than we are.

Any proof of that? Any?

Except we have been. Just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen on a regular basis. Check out

I'm not buying it, and I see no reason why I ought to believe that one.  How do we know that this wasn't made up for the sake of making things look worse?

Uhm. I'm buying it because I've shown you many instances of American war crimes, none of which you've answered. You're just saying it's made up to make us look worse, but you provide no evidence as to how.

Like I said, just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Do you want me to point out the stories of US marines raping women with rifles in Vietnam and then stabbing their breasts with machetes? Do you want me to point out that when asked about the Mylai massacre a Vietnam veteran who spoke to my America in the 1960s class said that sort of thing happened all the time? I can't cite these for obvious reasons, but seriously, to claim that we don't intentionally target civilians is naive.

Yeah, the Vietnam War had a lot of examples of such horrible acts.  It also has a lot of examples of soldiers trying to fight that.  My grandfather was one of these people.  He and some of his troupe members convinced their senior officers that events like this shouldn't have been allowed, and they disciplined any soldiers found doing such things.

My stepfather is a Vietnam veteran. According to him and other Vietnam vets I've spoken to, quite a few war crimes were ordered to happen by senior officers, like the Mylai Massacre.

I've also shown you reports of how the investigations of these crimes aren't as rigourous as they should be.

Ever heard of the Stanford Prison experiment? Look that up, too. It shows that human beings, when given this sort of power over people, will abuse it.

Actually, I have, and the study had some important results, so I see it as a good thing, BECAUSE it was so ugly.

It did, and you're ignoring it. I'm showing you that human beings will act like this when given a position of this sort of power, but you seem to be acting like Americans won't, unless I have your position on this wrong?

Uhhh Native American names, whut. From what I've heard from Native Americans, those are usually jokes parodying what stereotypes that white people have about them. Most Native Americans have 'normal' names that can look pretty WASPy at times.

Native Names a joke?
Please don't judge all Native Americans by some you have talked to.
Every family is different.  I am sure some Native Americans don't have 2 names. In some cases parents pick the native names for their childern, in addition to a birth name that apears on legal documents.  Esp since the names tend to get picked once the child is older so its a name that suits them.

Sorry, you're right, I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions there. I apologize for making assumptions.

Not gonna feed a troll. If he isn't trolling, then I'm not gonna reply to someone who can't debate without feeling the need to insult their opponents OR break the rules of the Kumo forums.

Considering I've seen friends' posts censored because they called certain people out for being trolls, I'd rather just do what I'm supposed to for once and report a post.

We did receive the report earlier, and I have now edited an earlier post accordingly. I apologize for the delay--a few moderators were carefully reviewing the entire thread and discussing it.

Thank you, and it's fine. I was worried that you guys hadn't gotten the report or something, but I'm glad you did.

I'm also glad you're reviewing the thread and discussing it, because it's certainly strayed quite a bit.

[@random]

You have no idea how much I wish I wasn't exaggerating. Citation. Citation 2.

They're saying "may" and I think they're just trying to make us sound worse than we are.

Except we have been. Just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen on a regular basis. Check out

I'm not buying it, and I see no reason why I ought to believe that one.  How do we know that this wasn't made up for the sake of making things look worse?

Lancet (one of the world's top medical journals) and Johns Hopkins (one of the world's top medical research schools) are out to get us as well as ORB (Brit polling agency)? We're in trouble. 

One oversimplification I often hear when scientific data is discussed is that unless someone says YES IT HAPPENED I HAS ABSOLUTE PROOF they don't really mean it. Scientists and academicians will almost never make unqualified statements because they're careful about not wanting to assert that very high probability (p<0.05) is the same as material fact. In my book, that makes them a lot more reliable, not less.

[Jinx]

personally I'm proud we finally got him. granted they got his son and wife in the open fire as well which is...sadish but idk I'm pretty happy.

I watched a few deferent news programs after I heard about it and saw republican leaders praising obama and I was like "WOOHOOO OBAMA FOR THE WIN!!!" ....haha

[jaybug]

There was so much I was going to say last night after I got home, but I was too beat to stay up for it. And then... stuff impinged the oscillator here. So whatever I had to say went out the window. lol

But, it's easier to pad the civilian body count if you use them as human shields, just as Osama's last act did. Did you forget how the "insurgents" used the entire town of Fallujah as hostages, a city of 100,000 people. Hoping the US would do the standard thinga dn bomb the whole city to ashes. We could also have starved them out. But instead we sent in Marines to root them out. Kills more of US, and can't help but kill civilians, but if there were enough civilians who were not terrorist supporters, they would have themselves done something about being taken hostage, like resist.

I am not sorry for killing Osama's family members, this is not Randy Weaver and a BATF entrapment set-up. This is not the Branch Davidian compound. This is a family who based their daily lives on killing Americans and other Western peoples.

I won't discuss Obama's chances for 2012 here beyond what I already stated. Needs another thread.

[MiriaRose]

There was so much I was going to say last night after I got home, but I was too beat to stay up for it. And then... stuff impinged the oscillator here. So whatever I had to say went out the window. lol

Yeah, this thread grew a lot last night.

But, it's easier to pad the civilian body count if you use them as human shields, just as Osama's last act did. Did you forget how the "insurgents" used the entire town of Fallujah as hostages, a city of 100,000 people. Hoping the US would do the standard thinga dn bomb the whole city to ashes. We could also have starved them out. But instead we sent in Marines to root them out. Kills more of US, and can't help but kill civilians, but if there were enough civilians who were not terrorist supporters, they would have themselves done something about being taken hostage, like resist.

Did you not check out my links? I'm not just talking about al-Qaeda's killings of civilians. We've done terrible things as well and killed plenty of innocent civilians.

I am not sorry for killing Osama's family members, this is not Randy Weaver and a BATF entrapment set-up. This is not the Branch Davidian compound. This is a family who based their daily lives on killing Americans and other Western peoples.

Americans and other Western peoples aren't the only people in the world. Bin Laden's family were human beings just like us. It doesn't matter if they wanted to kill other human beings.

[Malaria]

But, it's easier to pad the civilian body count if you use them as human shields, just as Osama's last act did. Did you forget how the "insurgents" used the entire town of Fallujah as hostages, a city of 100,000 people. Hoping the US would do the standard thinga dn bomb the whole city to ashes. We could also have starved them out. But instead we sent in Marines to root them out. Kills more of US, and can't help but kill civilians, but if there were enough civilians who were not terrorist supporters, they would have themselves done something about being taken hostage, like resist.

woah woah what
We do not blame victims of violence for the violence being perpetrated on them.
Especially in this particular context. Resistance=definitely being killed. Not resisting=maybe surviving. I would never expect them to sacrifice themselves for an American invading force, made up of individuals they wouldn't know from Adam.

But all this ignores the point that, historically, the American military has targeted mostly-civilian areas for reprisals or just as good military tactics. It also ignores the fact there wouldn't be such a high bodycount if we hadn't decided to invade another country and liberate it from its relative stability and low quality of life.

I am not sorry for killing Osama's family members, this is not Randy Weaver and a BATF entrapment set-up. This is not the Branch Davidian compound. This is a family who based their daily lives on killing Americans and other Western peoples.

I think it was less "Americans and other Western peoples" and more "everyone who isn't us exactly." Which I think is worth keeping in mind, because India, Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan and other decidedly non-Western countries have all seen plenty of death, too. This is not an ethnocentric problem that's focused on our part of the world. Besides, how do we know that his family had any thing to do with his work? The traditionalist nature of his campaign makes me feel like it's sort of unlikely that his family members did much for or against the cause. (Traditional cultures and the oppression of women, etc.) Maybe they were tacit supporters, but it's an uncomfortable moral stretch to say we should be executing all tacit supporters of people we think are worth killing.

And I'm going to guess by your earlier comment about the population of Fallujah that you might say something like, "If his family members believed he was doing wrong orchestrating all this murder, they should have taken it upon themselves to kill him." But that's a bit like saying that all Americans are responsible for the dismantling of nuclear warheads in order to prevent the widespread death of people overseas.

[lychee-twist]

[MiriaRose]

ilu Malaria. Seriously.

[jaybug]

Bush 43 got most of bin Laden's family out of the US in 2003, for their safety, or did you forget that? Yeah, his siblings, and cousins were living here. They did not have to leave, they were of legal status.

Really, we should expand the death penalty. And not have them serve 20 years + on death row. THat's just nuts.

But all this ignores the point that, historically, the American military has targeted mostly-civilian areas for reprisals or just as good military tactics

Good God, what far left rag do you get your misinformation from? And how many soldiers have you spat on today? Or as in my case, sailors?

So resistance is futile? Go tell that to the partisans of non-Vichy France. They resisted. Not all died. They also got a lot of downed allied airmen away from the Germans.

Also, will you let your neighborhood turn into a slum without doing anything about it? Or let gangsters take it over? Sit down, shut up and you won't get hurt? I will not live like that, ever.

[MiriaRose]

I take it you've never lived in one of those areas ever.

When your family is in danger, when you're in danger, you don't say anything. You don't go to the police because you're afraid of what they'll do to your loved ones if you do.

And this is coming from someone who has lived in situations where there were gangsters and drug dealers various times. We used to live next to the local meth dealer. Everyone in the neighborhood was afraid of him and no one would call the cops when he was screaming at his wife at one am in the morning because we were all afraid.

[Malaria]

Bush 43 got most of bin Laden's family out of the US in 2003, for their safety, or did you forget that? Yeah, his siblings, and cousins were living here. They did not have to leave, they were of legal status.

I wasn't aware, actually! I have no idea what that has to do with the matter at hand, but it's good to learn something new anyway.
Although thinking back, it does make a lot of sense that some of them would be in the US. He was from a rather upright, moneyed family, after all.

Really, we should expand the death penalty. And not have them serve 20 years + on death row. THat's just nuts.

Appeals process. Necessary to make sure we're not executing innocent people. Makes executions more expensive than a few decades of room and board. We've been over this.

But all this ignores the point that, historically, the American military has targeted mostly-civilian areas for reprisals or just as good military tactics

Good God, what far left rag do you get your misinformation from? And how many soldiers have you spat on today? Or as in my case, sailors?

While I'm reluctant to say that soldiers don't have any responsibility in deaths, fault ultimately lies with authority. I have a lot of respect for the individuals that try to walk the line between individual morality and their duty. What I'm really trying to say here is that sometimes soldiers do awful things because people in positions of authority do really awful stuff for expediency sometimes. Any smart tactician will tell you that if you want to break an army, you cut off their supplies. Supplies are provided by a factory town? Burn it down.

So resistance is futile? Go tell that to the partisans of non-Vichy France. They resisted. Not all died. They also got a lot of downed allied airmen away from the Germans.

The French Resistance and random poor people in Fallujah had very different contexts. The French Resistance were fighting against murderous invaders in order to be able to live in peace. The citizens of Fallujah were living in relative peace and safety before a bunch of murderous invaders came along and inspired a bunch of their countrymen (and probably some community members and loved ones) to take up arms.

Also, will you let your neighborhood turn into a slum without doing anything about it? Or let gangsters take it over? Sit down, shut up and you won't get hurt? I will not live like that, ever.

I'm not sure how to stop a neighborhood from becoming a slum. Remove the poor people so they can live in crappy conditions elsewhere?

I have no idea how a person would go about kicking a gang out, either. I imagine that would take some pretty mighty community organizing. And again, then they'd just be somewhere else.

Are you trying to that the people of Fallujah should have displaced the people pointing guns at them somehow? Even the ones that saw the American military as violent invaders? Which they were and are, strictly speaking. It's not like any of them asked us to bring a war on their heads.

[jaybug]

Quote
Really, we should expand the death penalty. And not have them serve 20 years + on death row. THat's just nuts.
Appeals process. Necessary to make sure we're not executing innocent people. Makes executions more expensive than a few decades of room and board. We've been over this.

This is a thread I started, you got on this, I hadn't yet responded. And why should appeals go on forever? Just do a better job of conviction than say Texas does.

Did you also know that they can shoot you if you disobey a, and here's the catch, lawful order during time of war? Your commanding officer can do this, no need to go bother anyone higher up.

if you want to break an army, you cut off their supplies. Supplies are provided by a factory town? Burn it down.

Close, materiel is made in a factory. Bomb the factory. If you do it at night, most people are not at work. THe idea is to detroy the factory, causing civilian casualties only stiffens their resolve. This applies until one side decides to commit atrocities of war, such as the Bataan Death March, rape camps, the Blitz or Battle of Britain if you prefer. Or have good information the enemy may develop nuclear weapons very soon.

Ever heard of "Broken Window Syndrome"? Fix the broken windows. Call the cops! It is your duty, and obligation to fight entropy!

I'm not sure how to stop a neighborhood from becoming a slum. Remove the poor people so they can live in crappy conditions elsewhere?

[Edit by JeffT, moderator: Removed inappropriate comment] Do you think a gang will take over Dunthorpe, Laurelhurst, Albina, Beverly Hills, Bel Air? Or even Ladd's Addition? NW Portland? It really doesn't take that much to keep them from thinking about moving in, it's much harder to get them out. And it's near impossible if you allow one to run rampant. It makes the place seem like a haven for those who seek shelter from the law.

It's also good to do everything you can if you live in an apartment that the landlord is allowing to slip into slum, to use every tool at your disposal, including alerting the TV news.

But if you like meth, nevermind.

Are you trying to that the people of Fallujah should have displaced the people pointing guns at them somehow?

Ever heard of the term "stool pigeon"? Tell the people who will be glad to clean your neighborhood for you. Taking up arms yourself should be a last resort.

I can understand, even if I do not like, the citizens of Fallujah not doing much of anything, after having a guy like Saddam in power for so long, and always living in fear that someday a knock on the door in the dead of night would come for you. Sure makes it easier to take a town hostage by using the same tactics.

Keeping your head down may keep you alive, but it also degrades you as a human. That's living like rats, not people.

[Edited by JeffT, moderator]

[reppy]

I must have missed something.  How did bin Laden's family get into this?  Doesn't he have a couple hundred brothers and sisters or something ridiculous?  Or are we talking his immediate family, i.e. wife and children?  Did some of his family members die when the compound was attacked?

Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. International humanitarian law and the Rome Statute permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives,[7] even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians (principle of distinction) (Article 8(2)(b)(i)) or an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage (principle of proportionality) (Article 8(2)(b)(iv). Article 8(2)(b)(iv) criminalizes:
Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;
Article 8(2)(b)(iv) draws on the principles in Article 51(5)(b) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I to the 1949 Geneva Conventions, but restricts the criminal prohibition to cases that are "clearly" excessive. The application of Article 8(2)(b)(iv) requires, inter alia, an assessment of:
(a) the anticipated civilian damage or injury;
(b) the anticipated military advantage;
(c) and whether (a) was "clearly excessive" in relation to (b).

[jaybug]

@ Malaria, sorry about the inappropriate comment that was deleted, that was unnecessary, even if I thought you to be too glib. Thanks Jeff.

Reppy, yes, one if his wives was there. She might have been shot in the leg. I don't think she was the one he used as a human shield at the last moment. Two sons were also killed. If I read right there were 6 Seals and 22 al queda there. I believe back in '03 a niece and nephew were in America going to college. They left because their name was bin Laden. Feared reprisal attacks. That'd be like being named George Hitler back in WWII.

[luvan1me]

Also, will you let your neighborhood turn into a slum without doing anything about it? Or let gangsters take it over? Sit down, shut up and you won't get hurt? I will not live like that, ever.

I'm not sure how to stop a neighborhood from becoming a slum. Remove the poor people so they can live in crappy conditions elsewhere?

i kinda find that offensive. i used to live in a shady neighborhood back in los angeles, and my family wasn't rich nor well off, just barely made it, but cuz my parents worked hard, we moved to a better place. my dad was practically dirt poor when he was growing up, his mother worked herself to death practically (sunup to sundown) and constantly hearing stuff from my dad saying that maybe i shouldn't speak so low about the poor before i even KNOW how it is to BE poor.

just cuz they are poor doesn't mean that it makes the neighborhood bad. it's the rich mafias and drug dealers and gangs that make the neighborhood bad!

maybe you should get the rich to give these poor familes a better home instead of hogging up all the cash and skipping out on some of those taxes >_> i really hate people who are middle class who seem to think that as well. middle class isn't even middle class anymore, it's on the verge of bankruptcy and relying on whatever you can, and probably in debt!

sorry but i really had to say something about that.. it really irks me when people start bringing the poor into the picture! cuz even rich kids become gang leaders and drug dealers! it's not just the poor!  

[Washougal_Otaku]

^ A very good point.

And this is coming from someone who has lived in situations where there were gangsters and drug dealers various times. We used to live next to the local meth dealer. Everyone in the neighborhood was afraid of him and no one would call the cops when he was screaming at his wife at one am in the morning because we were all afraid.

Sounds like a personal problem.  I wouldn't have hesitated.  Then again, in Washington, if the police are called for a domestic disturbance like that, the police would HAVE to arrest someone... unless that's just a Washougal law.

I should look that up for sure...

Either way, I would have called the cops.

[MiriaRose]

^ A very good point.

And this is coming from someone who has lived in situations where there were gangsters and drug dealers various times. We used to live next to the local meth dealer. Everyone in the neighborhood was afraid of him and no one would call the cops when he was screaming at his wife at one am in the morning because we were all afraid.

Sounds like a personal problem.  I wouldn't have hesitated.  Then again, in Washington, if the police are called for a domestic disturbance like that, the police would HAVE to arrest someone... unless that's just a Washougal law.

I should look that up for sure...

Either way, I would have called the cops.

It's not a personal problem. Like I said, you've never lived in that situation before so it's hard for you to say what you'd do when if you did call the police, the people you love would be at risk.