Art Institute Fraud

[MiriaRose]

EDIT: Looks like AI Portland is actually a pretty good school, although the others aren't so great. Just remember, before you decide to go to any college, you should do your research on them!

Hey, I've noticed a few people on these forums have mentioned that they want to attend the Art Institute of Portland or something similar, so I decided to put out a warning:

The Art Institutes are FRAUD.

Basically, they charge high tuition ($60k a year) and offer loans at high interest rates. I'm not sure if the interest is compounded, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was (basically, that means that they charge interest on the interest).

They don't offer you much in the way of career services, according to students there. All they offer is one "dry" website. They don't look over your portfolio during the application process, either. After you graduate, you won't get help from them in getting a job, but you will get emails trying to get you to take more classes.

The education is horrid, and the teachers aren't well-qualified. In fact, most of them barely know what they're talking about. The assignments apparently make no sense, and the teachers give out projects every week that end up costing $40-50 per class in supplies. Apparently, you also have to take five English courses. Most colleges require only 4-8 credits of English- Basically, one or two classes.

What's worse? If you decide to leave, Art Institute credits do not transfer. When you sign up, they tell you that they will, but when you try to leave, you find out they don't, much like ITT tech and University of Phoenix.

Here's some quotes from students:
"I felt like some of the faculty were just baby sitters and did not care about teaching or did not have the skills to teach."
"I ended up with no job, a ton of debt, and bad credit after AI. I started completely over at my local community college (AI CREDITS DO NOT TRANSFER!)and I found the classes there much more challenging than AI. I have trouble paying back my student loans I took out for nothing in return, thank god I got a free ride at my community college or I would be completely screwed."
"The Art Institutes are a scam. Period. I had some good professors there, but even they couldn't make up for the severe lack of organization and money grubbing behavior of the admin's."
"this is not a REAL art school and all the bad stuff you are reading is true. it is just a diploma mill."
"Take the Art Institute for what it is...a place to take your money and if you put effort in you end up with a degree that most perspective employers laugh at. I feel like I have wasted the last year and a half of my college career. I now have all these useless credits that will not transfer for the most part."
"Do not attend this school. It is a money trap. The online classes are awful."

www.studentsreview.com has reviews by students of various Art Institutes. They don't have a Portland one, sadly, but the "institutes" are really the same around the country.

Other "schools" to avoid:
ITT Tech
University of Phoenix
Le Courdon Bleu
International Academy of Design & Technology
Westwood College
Keller Graduate School of Management
Colorado Technical University
Full Sail University
Brooks Institute
South University

If anyone has any other schools to add to the list, tell me. Basically, here's a general rule of thumb: If you see ads for it, don't go there. Good colleges don't need advertisements.

[reppy]

Hm, I've known a couple people that went to ITT Tech and they seem to be doing pretty well after taking classes.  Can't really say much beside that though since I've never taken a class there.

[~boogiepop~]

Lol.

As someone currently going to the Art Institute of Portland and who knows a few graduates, I'm gonna have to call you out on some of your stuff. I dunno if you went there or not, but I'm just going to throw in my two cents. Also gonna say that I worked in the school so I'm not just a "random student pulling numbers out of their ass" I worked with the paper work, I still do from time to time.

Basically, they charge high tuition ($60k a year)...

It currently costs around 7k a quarter to take a full class load at AIP (5 classes, 15 credit hours). School is year round, meaning you don't get a summer break to goof around unless you withdraw from the school. So to take 20 classes, or 60 credit hours per year, you are going to be paying 28k, less then half of what you are claiming. Not going to say that it isn't a lot of freaking money, but it is a private school. And school will be less then that if you get scholarships, grants, and the such through financial aid. I get about 10k knocked off every year for tuition costs.

...offer loans at high interest rates.

They offer you the same loans that any school would, Sallie Mae. There are no "Private Art Institute Loans". I have the same exact loan as one of my friends who just started going to Community College. For a much less amount but it's still the same loan. Their interest rate is actually higher, due to the fact they didn't have a super credit worthy co-signer.

They don't offer you much in the way of career services, according to students there. All they offer is one "dry" website. They don't look over your portfolio during the application process, either. After you graduate, you won't get help from them in getting a job, but you will get emails trying to get you to take more classes.

As someone currently looking for a job, the school has been more then helpful. Though I'm not looking for a degree in the art field yet they have 3 people on staff that send out job leads, go to classes and help you look over their resumes, and will do mock interviews with you. It's not the Art Institutes job to give you a job, they will point you in the right direction and your talent and resume should be able to win the employer over.

The education is horrid, and the teachers aren't well-qualified. In fact, most of them barely know what they're talking about.

Currently I have a extremely talented, helpful, and sweet teacher who has worked for Disney on Mulan and other films, an awesome Flash teacher who's worked for Cartoon Network and has opened up the opportunity for me to work on a project for OPB right now that's going to appear on television. My foundation portfolio teacher worked on Boarderlands and for Liquid Development and an AMAZING After Effects teacher that is currently the lead art director at Liquid. This isn't a normal teachers job where you sit in school for 6 years and learn how to teach kids how to read a paper. They need people that have been in the field and know how the world of art and technology are moving around them. I can personally say I've learned a hella lot from most of my teachers (I've had a few crappy ones) and I'm so glad I've had the opportunity to learn from them.

The assignments apparently make no sense, and the teachers give out projects every week that end up costing $40-50 per class in supplies.

Some do, some don't. I'll give you that. I have never had a class that costs that much per class. If you are going to be taking a class that involves a lot of painting and sculpting I would expect to pay some money. Most of the teachers also give you cheaper alternatives (like a $5 pack of watercolors over buying a bunch of gouache) if you can't afford it. Hell, one of my classes I couldn't afford to take all the field trips (Drawing on Location, going to different places like the Japanese Gardens and stuff every week) and my teacher fronted me the money until I could.

Apparently, you also have to take five English courses. Most colleges require only 4-8 credits of English- Basically, one or two classes.

^[Removed] If you can't test into college English then why should they let someone into it just to get a crappy grade and (probably) fail a bunch and waste your money? Central Oregon Community College requires you to take English 121, 122, and 123, which is exactly what AI requires, more expensive then another college which is why I took them at a CC and got them transferred.

If you decide to leave, Art Institute credits do not transfer.

General Education and Art classes do transfer. I wouldn't expect something like Advanced 2-D animation, Lighting and Texturing, and 3-D modeling classes to transfer to a normal college either.


Case and point, yes AI is expensive. Is it a waste of time? If you make it to be. It's a hard school, they do let anyone into the school. But the drop out rate is enormous. Its hard to keep on and it's hard to get a good grade. It's not like they pass out A's, you have to work for that ****. I'm going to be graduating in a year and I can say that I have learned a god damn lot, I have a good skill set behind me, and I think I will be hired upon getting out of college. And hell, I know people that have left to work at Bungee, Liquid, and Fashion Buddha now. Hell, I met a guy on the Max a year ago who went to AI and is now working for Laika. The school has a pretty good rep with art community considering that our school is getting asked to do projects for various businesses in the greater Portland area.

This isn't a post to make people go "OH I SHOULD GO TO THE ART INSTITUTE". I just wanted to debunk a lot of the false things that were being posted. I personally don't think AI was the best school for me. I worked my ass off and I'm still not totally and completely sure that I wanna do art for the rest of my life. IT IS AN INVESTMENT so the only advice I can give to anyone looking into colleges right now is research, if you aren't sure about what you want to do DON'T GO TO A SPECIALIZED ART OR TRADE SCHOOL. Go takes some Gen. Eds. at a community college or PSU or something while you think about it. Don't worry, they'll transfer over

_{(Removed potentially inappropriate content per forum code of conduct.  ~randompvg)}

[~boogiepop~]

Double post but I also want to say that...

1. More people that have a bad experience will go and write a review then people who have had a good experience. I've noticed that looking into apartments, schools, cars, and even stuff on amazon and ebay. Though, more people will just complain about the first two and not give good feedback since there isn't a message prompting them going "HEY YOU SHOULD LEAVE FEEDBACK FOR YOUR SELLER/PRODUCT"

2. I saw ads for Central Oregon Community College, PSU, and whatever Rock Creek community college that is over here in Portland. Should students not go to those either? Because I hear they are just fine.

I know that AI is out to make money more then other colleges but, at least the one in Portland, has a good reputation and education to go along with it. But even with that said, all colleges are a business, all businesses number one goal is to make money. It's sad but that's how the world works.

[Gryffinclaw Princess]

As a student who is in a community college, you can get the same out of these. If you don't use your money and time wisely, every college can be a "fraud." There's a girl in my college who has been there for two years and only taken theater classes...there's about five classes. She just repeats the ones she can. She's wasting her money and a lot of us think she's stupid with how she's doing it.

And like Boogie said, English classes depend on how smart you are. I took AP English in HS and I went into college with 5 English credits at my disposal cause of my scores on AP tests. My first quarter at college I was in English 235 (Aka: Technical Writing). I was the only 'child' and everyone else in the room was an adult. I was in a class full of Hanford workers (nuclear plant that made the plutonium for WWII), firefighters, business workers, and other higher jobs. It was a curved class (a few people get As, a few get Fs and the rest are B-C range) and I got a 4.0 because I did my work and paid attention. I could easily have failed the class like the Hanford girl who sat next to me. I could have wasted my money like that one girl in my school.

College is what you make it. They are only scams if you let them be. You are paying people to teach you. They can't refuse to help you because it's your money that makes their salary. Use that to your advantage. I may only pay a little over 1k for 18 credits a quarter but I get my money's worth. I have to take more math classes cause I failed my placement test. I also haven't taken math since my Sophomore year in HS... So yeah, it's kind of a waste of money to some but it's not to me. I'm getting a refresher course on things I forgot over two years of no math. Again, college is what you make it. Make the best out of it.
If you don't want to spend a lot of money, go to a CC. They are cheaper than Uni and you don't 'waste' as much money if you don't know what you want to do. I'm still deciding what I want my AA to be in so I'm taking basic courses and some courses for things I just want to learn like the piano.



ALSO! A friend of mine out of HS goes to AI in another state and he loves it. He is going for video game design and he's already done some beta testing and all that jazz. I know he feels like he's getting his money's worth.

[MiriaRose]

Lol.

As someone currently going to the Art Institute of Portland and who knows a few graduates, I'm gonna have to call you out on some of your stuff. I dunno if you went there or not, but I'm just going to throw in my two cents. Also gonna say that I worked in the school so I'm not just a "random student pulling numbers out of their ass" I worked with the paper work, I still do from time to time.

Nope, I'm a high school student for about another week.

Basically, they charge high tuition ($60k a year)...

It currently costs around 7k a quarter to take a full class load at AIP (5 classes, 15 credit hours). School is year round, meaning you don't get a summer break to goof around unless you withdraw from the school. So to take 20 classes, or 60 credit hours per year, you are going to be paying 28k, less then half of what you are claiming. Not going to say that it isn't a lot of freaking money, but it is a private school. And school will be less then that if you get scholarships, grants, and the such through financial aid. I get about 10k knocked off every year for tuition costs.

Whoops, looks like I misread what I saw. Anyway, I messed around with their tuition calculator, and it looks like it'd be 32k per year with the fees, deposits, and starting kit.

...offer loans at high interest rates.

They offer you the same loans that any school would, Sallie Mae. There are no "Private Art Institute Loans". I have the same exact loan as one of my friends who just started going to Community College. For a much less amount but it's still the same loan. Their interest rate is actually higher, due to the fact they didn't have a super credit worthy co-signer.

Did you read the fine print? Because every site I read about AI mentions the loans, and how ridiculously hard they are to pay off. One former employee said this:

"Over half of the students I counseled DID NOT EVEN GRADUATE, due to reaching their aggregate loan limits ($57,500), when this happens if you do not have fantastic credit or a co-signer you will be forced to leave school and begin repaying your debt with NO DIPLOMA!"

Congrats on having a good co-signer, but not everyone does.

[1] [2] < Some stories for you.

They don't offer you much in the way of career services, according to students there. All they offer is one "dry" website. They don't look over your portfolio during the application process, either. After you graduate, you won't get help from them in getting a job, but you will get emails trying to get you to take more classes.

As someone currently looking for a job, the school has been more then helpful. Though I'm not looking for a degree in the art field yet they have 3 people on staff that send out job leads, go to classes and help you look over their resumes, and will do mock interviews with you. It's not the Art Institutes job to give you a job, they will point you in the right direction and your talent and resume should be able to win the employer over.
Considering how many people say prospective employers will laugh over an AI degree, I doubt the resume will help much. In fact, 37.5% of AI of Fort Lauderdale graduates are unemployed and 12.5% work minimum wage jobs. 62.5% state that AI helped them very little in their career success.

At the Art Institute of Seattle, 33% of graduates are unemployed, and 83.33% say that AI helped them very little in their career success.

I was quoting a student from the AI of Pittsburgh when I said that they give you a dry website. As for talent, well, considering that the AI doesn't even look at your portfolio, I doubt that it's a good indicator of talent.

The education is horrid, and the teachers aren't well-qualified. In fact, most of them barely know what they're talking about.

Currently I have a extremely talented, helpful, and sweet teacher who has worked for Disney on Mulan and other films, an awesome Flash teacher who's worked for Cartoon Network and has opened up the opportunity for me to work on a project for OPB right now that's going to appear on television. My foundation portfolio teacher worked on Boarderlands and for Liquid Development and an AMAZING After Effects teacher that is currently the lead art director at Liquid. This isn't a normal teachers job where you sit in school for 6 years and learn how to teach kids how to read a paper. They need people that have been in the field and know how the world of art and technology are moving around them. I can personally say I've learned a hella lot from most of my teachers (I've had a few crappy ones) and I'm so glad I've had the opportunity to learn from them.

If they worked on all these big important projects, why are they teaching at the AI of Portland? Art Institutes have a bad reputation, considering how they're a for-profit school.

The assignments apparently make no sense, and the teachers give out projects every week that end up costing $40-50 per class in supplies.

Some do, some don't. I'll give you that. I have never had a class that costs that much per class. If you are going to be taking a class that involves a lot of painting and sculpting I would expect to pay some money. Most of the teachers also give you cheaper alternatives (like a $5 pack of watercolors over buying a bunch of gouache) if you can't afford it. Hell, one of my classes I couldn't afford to take all the field trips (Drawing on Location, going to different places like the Japanese Gardens and stuff every week) and my teacher fronted me the money until I could.

You're painting with a $5 pack of watercolours at an art school? That seems pretty sketchy, sorry.

Apparently, you also have to take five English courses. Most colleges require only 4-8 credits of English- Basically, one or two classes.

^[Removed] If you can't test into college English then why should they let someone into it just to get a crappy grade and (probably) fail a bunch and waste your money? Central Oregon Community College requires you to take English 121, 122, and 123, which is exactly what AI requires, more expensive then another college which is why I took them at a CC and got them transferred.

Except not everyone is a good test taker? And really, what does English have to do with art? There are multiple intelligences, after all, and just because someone isn't good at English doesn't mean that they're stupid or not good at art.

If you decide to leave, Art Institute credits do not transfer.

General Education and Art classes do transfer. I wouldn't expect something like Advanced 2-D animation, Lighting and Texturing, and 3-D modeling classes to transfer to a normal college either.

But what about to another art school? And have you tried transferring the GE and art classes to another school? Everything I've read says differently.

As a student who is in a community college, you can get the same out of these. If you don't use your money and time wisely, every college can be a "fraud." There's a girl in my college who has been there for two years and only taken theater classes...there's about five classes. She just repeats the ones she can. She's wasting her money and a lot of us think she's stupid with how she's doing it.

There's a difference between fraud and taking only theater classes. Do you know the definition of fraud? For-profit schools and scams like that are way different than choices students make at non-profit schools. You can't compare the two.

And like Boogie said, English classes depend on how smart you are.

Grades =/= intelligence, just look at my high school's AP calculus class, or talk to my AP economics teacher. It's easy to get into AP classes, they don't even have you test in.

Also, no. Just no. There are multiple intelligences, and creativity is a different intelligence than language. Do you need to read and understand Hamlet to be a good sculptor?

I took AP English in HS and I went into college with 5 English credits at my disposal cause of my scores on AP tests. My first quarter at college I was in English 235 (Aka: Technical Writing). I was the only 'child' and everyone else in the room was an adult. I was in a class full of Hanford workers (nuclear plant that made the plutonium for WWII), firefighters, business workers, and other higher jobs. It was a curved class (a few people get As, a few get Fs and the rest are B-C range) and I got a 4.0 because I did my work and paid attention. I could easily have failed the class like the Hanford girl who sat next to me. I could have wasted my money like that one girl in my school.

I really don't see how this is relevant. I'm in AP English, too, and it's easy. But consider that not everyone is just like you, and please do read my post instead of just assuming that I'm saying the students are bad. You're blaming the victims here.

College is what you make it. They are only scams if you let them be.

And that Nigerian prince who is always emailing me is only a scammer if I let him be! Sorry, that's not how it works. Do you know anything about for-profit schools?   Please, look up how AI loans have ruined many students' credit scores.

You are paying people to teach you. They can't refuse to help you because it's your money that makes their salary. Use that to your advantage. I may only pay a little over 1k for 18 credits a quarter but I get my money's worth. I have to take more math classes cause I failed my placement test. I also haven't taken math since my Sophomore year in HS... So yeah, it's kind of a waste of money to some but it's not to me. I'm getting a refresher course on things I forgot over two years of no math. Again, college is what you make it. Make the best out of it.
If you don't want to spend a lot of money, go to a CC. They are cheaper than Uni and you don't 'waste' as much money if you don't know what you want to do. I'm still deciding what I want my AA to be in so I'm taking basic courses and some courses for things I just want to learn like the piano.

Honestly, I really don't think you understand what I was saying at all. I was warning people against a predatory college. I don't see how any of that is relevant.

ALSO! A friend of mine out of HS goes to AI in another state and he loves it. He is going for video game design and he's already done some beta testing and all that jazz. I know he feels like he's getting his money's worth.

Good for him. But when you see how many people wouldn't return to AI, then you see how it really does need to be looked at.

Double post but I also want to say that...

1. More people that have a bad experience will go and write a review then people who have had a good experience. I've noticed that looking into apartments, schools, cars, and even stuff on amazon and ebay. Though, more people will just complain about the first two and not give good feedback since there isn't a message prompting them going "HEY YOU SHOULD LEAVE FEEDBACK FOR YOUR SELLER/PRODUCT"

Nope. Look at the student reviews of other, non-profit universities on studentsreview.com. Most of them don't have the amount of bad reviews that AI does.

2. I saw ads for Central Oregon Community College, PSU, and whatever Rock Creek community college that is over here in Portland. Should students not go to those either? Because I hear they are just fine.

No, but when a school puts in more money towards advertising than it does towards supplies for its students. .

I know that AI is out to make money more then other colleges but, at least the one in Portland, has a good reputation and education to go along with it. But even with that said, all colleges are a business, all businesses number one goal is to make money. It's sad but that's how the world works.

Uh, no. Colleges tend to be non-profit corporations. They're not focused on profit, because they're non-profit, and they are not legally allowed to make a profit. The university I will be attending is a private school, and it is non-profit. For-profit schools tend to be really sketchy.

Just because colleges are corporations does not mean they are businesses. Businesses are only one type of corporation.

Hm, I've known a couple people that went to ITT Tech and they seem to be doing pretty well after taking classes.  Can't really say much beside that though since I've never taken a class there.

ITT Tech is the most infamous of for-profit schools.

[1] [2]

[~boogiepop~]

Also before I continue with rebuttal I want to put out there that if you don't believe something I say I would be happy to get paper work, scan it and post it by Tuesday when I am near a scanner with some time (School closed on Monday). I would just have to black out parts due to personal information.

Also all of this information is just what I know about AIP. I've heard other AI are terrible and other AI are better.

Whoops, looks like I misread what I saw. Anyway, I messed around with their tuition calculator, and it looks like it'd be 32k per year with the fees, deposits, and starting kit.

Fees, deposit and the starting kit are only paid for once. You don't have to pay for it ever again. The deposit and application fee (I may be wrong with one of them, I know at least one does) also go directly to your tuition. Also costs and the such will vary from AI to AI, only a couple thousand I'm assuming.

Did you read the fine print? Because every site I read about AI mentions the loans, and how ridiculously hard they are to pay off. One former employee said this:

"Over half of the students I counseled DID NOT EVEN GRADUATE, due to reaching their aggregate loan limits ($57,500), when this happens if you do not have fantastic credit or a co-signer you will be forced to leave school and begin repaying your debt with NO DIPLOMA!"

Congrats on having a good co-signer, but not everyone does.

I read the fine print, on the Sallie Mae website. You don't fill out any loan papers with AI. You sit on a computer and go through the Sallie Mae website, at school or at home. My roommate who went to a Paul Mitchell school in Nevada has a Sallie Mae loan, I just asked my other roommate who went Devry in Washington and he has Sallie Mae loans. Hell, if Sallie Mae doesn't work for you they will take any other student loan from any loan company. They just suggest Sallie Mae since it seems to be the easiest to go through. It's the default loan company. And I don't know, most private colleges cost about that much to attend from what I've researched. It's whatever works for you and if you think the money is worth it.

And all loans are hard to pay off, anyone who is currently in college on loans can tell you that.

 Also sucks for those people with the stories. Again, only speaking for Art Institute of Portland. Each Art Institute is their own establishment and is run quiet different from other AI students I have spoken with.

Considering how many people say prospective employers will laugh over an AI degree, I doubt the resume will help much. In fact, 37.5% of AI of Fort Lauderdale graduates are unemployed and 12.5% work minimum wage jobs. 62.5% state that AI helped them very little in their career success.

At the Art Institute of Seattle, 33% of graduates are unemployed, and 83.33% say that AI helped them very little in their career success.

I was quoting a student from the AI of Pittsburgh when I said that they give you a dry website. As for talent, well, considering that the AI doesn't even look at your portfolio, I doubt that it's a good indicator of talent.

Really? Because we frequently have people from big name companies in Portland (Laika, Bent, Liquid etc. etc.) come to job fairs, talk with faculty, and offer internships for students at our school which are posted up in the career center. If they "laugh" at AI degrees why would they go to so much trouble to get involved with the campus? If I were someone in that position I would ignore a school that produces crappy students. And hell, those are GREAT places to freaking work. I would be honored and my dreams would become a reality if I was to get hired on by one of those companies. And that's only local businesses I know about (I want to stay in Portland since my career focus's hub is here, I don't look into things outside of area). I have heard of companies from Washington contacting the school and asking for references of potential employees.

And kinda rusty on the numbers here, but AIP has an 85% I think of students acquiring a field related job 6 months after graduation? Pretty damn good if you ask me. I can go get exact numbers tomorrow if needed. And again, just Portland. I don't know about other states and the such. Also talking to other people in the art field and other students from other schools, AIP has a better reputation then Seattle. That's just by word of mouth though, I don't know if it's completely true.

And just because they don't check portfolios upon going in doesn't mean that there is little to no talent at a school, that is a very bad generalization on your part. I don't really agree with the fact that they don't check either but it's kind of nice that they give kids a chance. Not all people are born with talent in a certain skill or given the chance to practice in it, and I've watched a lot of kids grown from stick figures or bad anime art to be amazing artists because there was an opening for them here. Not everyone, but there is a good handful.

ALSO, not all degrees at the school are based around if you can draw or not. There are programming, 3-D Modeling, Texturing, Lighting, Marketing, Film, and Culinary degrees here. So they would have to require a portfolio for only some majors. Depends completely what major you are looking at. But I agree, things where you are involved to draw should require a portfolio.

If they worked on all these big important projects, why are they teaching at the AI of Portland? Art Institutes have a bad reputation, considering how they're a for-profit school.

Most of them are working their jobs of choice still and teaching on the side. Anyone going into an art career should take this in to mind: The majority of art careers are not a constant. You are taken on for a project and upon the projects completion your contract is over. Not saying that there aren't jobs where you are working a 9-5 job, 5 days a week, with some paid vacation in the art field but most aren't. I don't blame them for wanting to work a teaching job as some stability.

Also don't really wanna type out a paragraph for this but I am just going to hit some points on the teachers...
-Disney's 2-D department went under (until Princess and the Frog, they have come back since that) and were focusing solely on 3-D which is why the 2-D animation teacher left California I'm assuming.
-Missed the point where one of my teachers is an Art Director at Liquid Development
-Flash teacher works on commercials and short childrens shows still quiet frequently.
-Other teachers at the school work as children book illustrators, animators, and game designers while still teaching.

And personal opinion, but I think it's a generalization to lump all the AI's together. Again, they all may be under the same company head but they are all totally different establishments, teach different ways, and have different course outlines and even majors to work with the area they are located in.

You're painting with a $5 pack of watercolours at an art school? That seems pretty sketchy, sorry.

So...supplies that the school suggests high grade art materials that are a bit expensive are too much money and sketchy, but when they offer you cheaper alternatives that's sketchy too? I don't get why you needed to throw that in there.

Except not everyone is a good test taker? And really, what does English have to do with art? There are multiple intelligences, after all, and just because someone isn't good at English doesn't mean that they're stupid or not good at art.

Uhhhh, you do know you can't get a degree anywhere without taking general education courses, right? I'm pretty sure that's a guideline for any higher educational institute in America. And that three English courses is a very normal amount for any degree?

And English has a lot to do with art. You still need to write letters, proposals, speeches, and forms for people while you work in an art degree. And to add to that you need to be able to research and know how to properly take in words and information to do that. Letters and numbers don't magically become un-needed because you are working in a creative field. If I worked in an animation department, and I asked someone to write me up a prompt for the project we are doing and their paragraphs weren't properly formed and they didn't use proper punctuation making it hard to read, I wouldn't waste my time on it, throw it away, and go on to something else.

But what about to another art school? And have you tried transferring the GE and art classes to another school? Everything I've read says differently.

I haven't tried another art school, I'm not sure how that would work out but I think it would completely depend on the courses they have there. If they don't have some of the weird stuff like Texturing and Character Sculpting then they probably won't. Also all schools have different ways of teaching so sometimes they will make you retake a class to learn as per their certain guidelines so you aren't lost in more advanced classes.

And I haven't transferred out of the Art Institute, but one of my best friend has. All of her general education and art classes transferred to Central Oregon Community College and a Trade School focused on Welding here in Portland. Her 3-D and game production classes did not due to the fact that they school did not offer things like that in their curriculum.

Nope. Look at the student reviews of other, non-profit universities on studentsreview.com. Most of them don't have the amount of bad reviews that AI does.

When I was looking for college pretty much everything was....bad. I would go look now but I don't want to go on a college search again, I already did three years ago so I will take your word for it. Sorry I was mistaken there.

No, but when a school puts in more money towards advertising than it does towards supplies for its students. .

Colleges aren't required to have supplies for their students. When I went to Community College I had to buy my own supplies too. This isn't like High School where the government and tax payers dollars support the school (Though, when I was in High School we still had to buy all our own stuff because our district was hella poor /qq). Don't quote me on it but I think most colleges get very little in the form of government and tax money help. Do you have any proof of how much they spend in advertising in comparison to events run for students, computer labs, tutors, and campus upkeep? These are all things that effect a students success at a school, much like supplies.

Uh, no. Colleges tend to be non-profit corporations. They're not focused on profit, because they're non-profit, and they are not legally allowed to make a profit. The university I will be attending is a private school, and it is non-profit. For-profit schools tend to be really sketchy.

Just because colleges are corporations does not mean they are businesses. Businesses are only one type of corporation.

I probably should have made myself clearer on my statement I was trying to get across so sorry if I was all wonky about it. All college are out to make money, if colleges weren't, colleges would be free to attend much like primary school. Money is needed to pay money for property, essential things like water and electricity for the building, remoldling, teachers pay, computer labs, tables chairs, desks, events like graduations and welcoming ceremonies, expanding etc. etc. They get money, they stay open, they don't they close. So, at least in my mind, I see all colleges as out to bring in money because if they don't they are done and no one has jobs.

And yes AI and other things like that are out to make money, I know that and I'm not trying to argue that at all. And this is just a generalization on my part but you seem to be kind of lumping them all together for that. Just because AI Portland makes money off of me doesn't mean I'm not getting a good education, I'm sure other schools like that are the same, I'm sure the other ones are really crappy.

Also, not to be offensive at all, but you keep throwing out numbers for other AI establishments but none for AIP. I guess I'm just trying to say don't lump everything to be the same. Sorry if me assuming that isn't correct.

[superjaz]

I haven't been to this school, nor know much, but I can say 2 people can go to the same school and have totally different experiences.

Like take reynolds high school.  I have a joke about that school based on my familys personal experiences, here it goes

Some person "I graduated from reynolds high school"
Me "wow! I didn't know people actually graduated from reynolds"
Person "...well I got my GED thru them..."

Seriously I have gone thru this joke 3 times with these results with different people.
(not starting a reynolds bash here) I am sure plenty of peeps get good education there, with teachers that make a difference but as said, based on my personal experiences, I think reading lol cats pictures all day would teach more to students.

[MiriaRose]

Alright, boogiepop, I concede: AI Portland is alright. You're right, I couldn't find any numbers on Portland's, because when I looked there actually was nothing.

Hold on, I'll edit my post~

There is some stuff I want to answer in your post, but I'm kind of hopped up on benadryl so if I feel like pointing them out tomorrow still, I will.

[~boogiepop~]

Thanks Miria, I appreciate the fact that you put that up there and didn't just brush off everything I said or anything. For reals.

And I hope I wasn't being rude at all or anything. This is just a subject....I have a lot of information due to working as a student worker in the registrars office and attending there. I just feel bad that a lot of people just push it off to be a terrible school because of the reputations of other Art Institutes. It's not the best school in the area for sure, but I think it's a pretty good establishment for kids wanting to get into Animation and Game Design and isn't a waste of money. (Other majors I can't vouch for personally as I haven't taken classes for them).

And I'll look out at this thread tomorrow if you do. I'm sure know I said some crap that was wrong or doesn't make sense.

[MiriaRose]

Nah, I just need to clarify some stuff. You weren't too rude, so don't worry!

I'm glad that AIP is working out for you, though.  (:

[reppy]

Hm, I've known a couple people that went to ITT Tech and they seem to be doing pretty well after taking classes.  Can't really say much beside that though since I've never taken a class there.

ITT Tech is the most infamous of for-profit schools.

[1] [2]

It may have been the course they took.  I believe both of the people I know enrolled in a networking course.  If memory serves me, they were taking courses with an emphasis on Cisco, which means they probably received Cisco certification.  Now, a Cisco cert is something you can get by studying on your own, or taking classes at a community college, so take my second-hand experiences for what it's worth.

I wouldn't recommend ITT Tech if someone asked me, just because I believe there are better (and cheaper) alternatives.

I was just talking about a topic sort of related to this with a friend earlier.  I was looking on RateMyProfessor at one of my favorite math teachers.  He gets absolutely slayed on there.  Why?  Because people walk in expecting an easy grade.  Instead, they get treated like adults and it sucks for them because they want to screw around, party on the weekends, and coast by with a C+.  My point?  Hard to take online reviews too seriously because people that hated someone are far more likely to say something than someone who thought the teacher was only good/great but not amazing and incredible.

Having said all that, in general I'm not really a fan of for-profit schools, but that's because I'm a dirty, hippie commie.  (slightly tongue-in-cheek)

[@random]

Have I mentioned lately how much I love you guys?  

Anywhere else, anyone else, and we would have probably had to wade in with asbestos Hazmat suits afterward (as opposed to barely even registering a tiny blip).

At this rate, by the time con rolls around I'm going to have to buy in bulk for all the cookies I owe people. (^_^)

[superjaz]

I was just talking about a topic sort of related to this with a friend earlier.  I was looking on RateMyProfessor at one of my favorite math teachers.  He gets absolutely slayed on there.  Why?  Because people walk in expecting an easy grade.  Instead, they get treated like adults and it sucks for them because they want to screw around, party on the weekends, and coast by with a C+.  My point?  Hard to take online reviews too seriously because people that hated someone are far more likely to say something than someone who thought the teacher was only good/great but not amazing and incredible.

I had an reverse of this one, took a psy class and I was in the second week of class and just written down the note and reread them before I realized it was the same notes/materials lecture that he had given us the class before.  Double checked I wasn't crazy by asking students near me and no wasn't nuts. the next class same notes and more taking about random stuff.  Sadly by then its too late to get into a class where we could learn stuff, and some of my class mates were ripping the teacher apart on the rate teacher sites.  It was an easy A, but I was more proud of a class where I worked hard and earned a B.  The grade based on one take home test, one paper and attendance but it was really hard to go to class knowing not learning anything.  I would sit in the back and read my Japanese lit mountain of books.

[LigerZeroLindsey]

I think I can agree about AI, I was thinking about going there but I heard so much bad stuff about it I went to Eastern, which dooped me so I left after a quarter Dx

But right now I am an online student for University of Phoenix and I am doing quite well actually. I have only had one problem with a teacher that was giving me bad grades for no reason, but after talking to my advisor that was cleared up. And there are some courses you say what the crap do I gotta take this for? But all colleges have that. I personally am having a good experience with UOP. I have been in it for over a year and am gonna be done soon. That's just me I'm sure people have had their bad experiences tho, but mine have been good. =)

But my little sister is wanton to go to AI and she never believes ms on when I say it's probably no the best, maybe I should show her this thread xD

[Washougal_Otaku]

Le Courdon Bleu

I find this one hard to believe.

[MiriaRose]

Hm, I've known a couple people that went to ITT Tech and they seem to be doing pretty well after taking classes.  Can't really say much beside that though since I've never taken a class there.

ITT Tech is the most infamous of for-profit schools.

[1] [2]

It may have been the course they took.  I believe both of the people I know enrolled in a networking course.  If memory serves me, they were taking courses with an emphasis on Cisco, which means they probably received Cisco certification.  Now, a Cisco cert is something you can get by studying on your own, or taking classes at a community college, so take my second-hand experiences for what it's worth.

I wouldn't recommend ITT Tech if someone asked me, just because I believe there are better (and cheaper) alternatives.

I was just talking about a topic sort of related to this with a friend earlier.  I was looking on RateMyProfessor at one of my favorite math teachers.  He gets absolutely slayed on there.  Why?  Because people walk in expecting an easy grade.  Instead, they get treated like adults and it sucks for them because they want to screw around, party on the weekends, and coast by with a C+.  My point?  Hard to take online reviews too seriously because people that hated someone are far more likely to say something than someone who thought the teacher was only good/great but not amazing and incredible.

Having said all that, in general I'm not really a fan of for-profit schools, but that's because I'm a dirty, hippie commie.  (slightly tongue-in-cheek)

No, it isn't the fact that people walk in expecting an easy grade. The difficulty isn't what people are complaining about at all- The fact that they've just been scammed out of a ton of money, can't transfer their credits, and might have to file for bankruptcy is what they're upset about.

Being a high school student, I know about kids complaining about teachers when they just want an easy A. But that doesn't discount the opinions of students who have honestly bad experiences, and when there's enough who have those problems, it should be looked at.

I think I can agree about AI, I was thinking about going there but I heard so much bad stuff about it I went to Eastern, which dooped me so I left after a quarter Dx

But right now I am an online student for University of Phoenix and I am doing quite well actually. I have only had one problem with a teacher that was giving me bad grades for no reason, but after talking to my advisor that was cleared up. And there are some courses you say what the crap do I gotta take this for? But all colleges have that. I personally am having a good experience with UOP. I have been in it for over a year and am gonna be done soon. That's just me I'm sure people have had their bad experiences tho, but mine have been good. =)

But my little sister is wanton to go to AI and she never believes ms on when I say it's probably no the best, maybe I should show her this thread xD

Some people do have good experiences at these for-profit schools, but enough people are scammed out of money that I'd rather warn people about them.

Le Courdon Bleu

I find this one hard to believe.

People found the fact that the universe does not revolve around the Earth hard to believe, too. Doesn't make it any less false. Seriously, look it up. Le Courdon Bleu is a for-profit school.

[@random]

Le Courdon Bleu

I find this one hard to believe.

People found the fact that the universe does not revolve around the Earth hard to believe, too. Doesn't make it any less false. Seriously, look it up. Le Courdon Bleu is a for-profit school.

I'm pretty sure what he's alluding to is that the original Le Cordon Bleu school in France is a byword for top-line chefs, and has been for several decades. They themselves are unquestionably not a fly-by-night operation, as many "schools" these days are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Cordon_Bleu

_{Funny bit of trivia: The term "fly-by-night" stems from the older use of "fly" as a synonym for "flee". A "fly-by-night" operation is typically one that hasn't been around long, and is so unscrupulous and/or fraudulent that you wouldn't be surprised to see the people running it close up shop and disappear overnight... as literally happened a few years back with one "school" in Seattle. Seriously, students and teachers came in the next day for classes to find signs letting them know it was out of business.}

However, and this is a pretty big however: The ones in the US are not operated by the original. They're actually run by Career Education Corporation, who bought the rights to use the name a while back. Your mileage may vary on how reputable CEC is, given that they've run into some fairly unfavorable scrutiny in recent years and have had trouble maintaining accreditation. (They also run IADT, which I would consider more of a "scam" than a "school".)

_{(Standard disclaimer: All of the above is nothing more than my own personal opinion. It should not be construed as an official position of, or endorsed by, either Kumoricon or Altonimbus.)}

[Washougal_Otaku]

The fact that they've just been scammed out of a ton of money, can't transfer their credits, and might have to file for bankruptcy is what they're upset about.

A) Feeling like you're getting screwed doesn't mean you actually are getting screwed.  B) Some of those institutions, including Le Cordon Bleu, say in their commercials and application forms that their credits are non-transferable; there's nothing abnormal or criminal about that.  C) Many people file for bankruptcy due to tuition at legitimate colleges & universities.

_{(Removed inappropriate comment per forum code of conduct: Keep discussion friendly and civil, and keep discussion focused on the issue rather than the person. No personal attacks or speculating about another person's motives.  ~randompvg)}

[AllyKat]

Other "schools" to avoid:
ITT Tech
University of Phoenix
Le Courdon Bleu
International Academy of Design & Technology
Westwood College
Keller Graduate School of Management
Colorado Technical University
Full Sail University
Brooks Institute
South University

I'll be honest, I got my hopes up that Portland had a University for Beer Brewery... even if it was a scam, it would be a VERY well worth it scam.

Alas... it was not so.

[Washougal_Otaku]

^ That would be AWESOME!

[MiriaRose]

The fact that they've just been scammed out of a ton of money, can't transfer their credits, and might have to file for bankruptcy is what they're upset about.

A) Feeling like you're getting screwed doesn't mean you actually are getting screwed.  B) Some of those institutions, including Le Cordon Bleu, say in their commercials and application forms that their credits are non-transferable; there's nothing abnormal or criminal about that.  C) Many people file for bankruptcy due to tuition at legitimate colleges & universities.

A. And sometimes it does. Don't discount what they say just because you don't want to believe it.

B. Actually, it is abnormal. You know why the credits don't transfer? Because they're not regionally accredited. That means that they aren't seen as satisfactory schools in the area they're in.

C. But most schools don't throw their students into a high amount of debt to make a profit and charge $30k when the only job you can get pays $9/hr.

Do you have any evidence at all that Le Cordon Bleu, owned by CEC, is a legitimate school? Have you read anything about it? I'm sorry, but it seems as though you haven't.

Incidentally, they're also being sued for fraud right now.

_{(Removed response to inappropriate content per forum code of conduct.  ~randompvg)}

[Washougal_Otaku]

A. And sometimes it does. Don't discount what they say just because you don't want to believe it.

B. Actually, it is abnormal. You know why the credits don't transfer? Because they're not regionally accredited. That means that they aren't seen as satisfactory schools in the area they're in.

C. But most schools don't throw their students into a high amount of debt to make a profit and charge $30k when the only job you can get pays $9/hr.

Do you have any evidence at all that Le Cordon Bleu, owned by CEC, is a legitimate school? Have you read anything about it? I'm sorry, but it seems as though you haven't.

A) Sometimes it does, but many times it doesn't.  I see a lot of people who believe they're getting screwed financially with their education; one of the many benefits of attending college for as long as I have.  Besides, there's a lot of things that have been coming up over the past few years that have been making matters seem worse, mainly because of certain government policy changes.  Not fun...

B) It is normal.  They don't transfer because they're not the same type of credits.

C) Trust me, many of them do.  For the students that have to rely on loans, which is a great deal of them (but not a majority), they're in debt for many years, sometimes even their entire lives.  I even had a teacher back in high school who had been teaching for about two and a half decades by the time he announced to our class that he finally paid off the last of his student loans from his college days, and this was back when Washougal had the finances to pay their teachers pretty well.

No, not really, because I didn't want to go into that field.  They are a legitimate school, though, because I know people that have graduated from there before and have rather successful jobs.  However, even if I did, I would've gone through Clark College because it's in Vancouver, like me, and I fully understand that the credits there DO transfer to other colleges and universities.  It's a matter of simple smarts and what you want.  I wouldn't want to go there, because it's not logical for me (mainly because of my career choice, to be honest).  It's simply better to avoid schools like that for those with financial problems anyways because there's more financial options for those attending universities and community colleges.

_{(Removed continued inappropriate content per forum code of conduct. Same story, keep it on the issue.  ~randompvg)}

[MiriaRose]

A. And sometimes it does. Don't discount what they say just because you don't want to believe it.

B. Actually, it is abnormal. You know why the credits don't transfer? Because they're not regionally accredited. That means that they aren't seen as satisfactory schools in the area they're in.

C. But most schools don't throw their students into a high amount of debt to make a profit and charge $30k when the only job you can get pays $9/hr.

Do you have any evidence at all that Le Cordon Bleu, owned by CEC, is a legitimate school? Have you read anything about it? I'm sorry, but it seems as though you haven't.

A) Sometimes it does, but many times it doesn't.  I see a lot of people who believe they're getting screwed financially with their education; one of the many benefits of attending college for as long as I have.  Besides, there's a lot of things that have been coming up over the past few years that have been making matters seem worse, mainly because of certain government policy changes.  Not fun...

When the parent company is being sued for fraud and the plantiff has a good case against them, I think it means it does.

B) It is normal.  They don't transfer because they're not the same type of credits.

No. No it is not normal. How is it normal? You're not providing any evidence, you're just stating things are fact but show no reasons why. It isn't because they're not the same type of credits, it's because they're not credits from a regionally accredited school.

C) Trust me, many of them do.  For the students that have to rely on loans, which is a great deal of them (but not a majority), they're in debt for many years, sometimes even their entire lives.  I even had a teacher back in high school who had been teaching for about two and a half decades by the time he announced to our class that he finally paid off the last of his student loans from his college days, and this was back when Washougal had the finances to pay their teachers pretty well.

You do realize that the students of these schools are given high-interest loans? Like, waaay above normal? Like, the kind that it's nearly impossible to pay back?

No, not really, because I didn't want to go into that field.  They are a legitimate school, though, because I know people that have graduated from there before and have rather successful jobs.  However, even if I did, I would've gone through Clark College because it's in Vancouver, like me, and I fully understand that the credits there DO transfer to other colleges and universities.  It's a matter of simple smarts and what you want.  I wouldn't want to go there, because it's not logical for me (mainly because of my career choice, to be honest).  It's simply better to avoid schools like that for those with financial problems anyways because there's more financial options for those attending universities and community colleges.

Um, you do realize I'm talking about the for-profit school Le Cordon Bleu? Not the legit one? And really? You know people who went there and have successful careers, so it must be true, despite the fact that I'm showing you they're a fraud? Even if they did go to the one I'm talking about, there's still a few lucky people out of a large amount.

_{(Removed response chain to inappropriate content per forum code of conduct.  ~randompvg)}

[@random]

Please note: It doesn't matter whether something is "meant" offensively. If it focuses on the person rather than the issue and can be reasonably taken as patronizing or offensive, it doesn't belong in a debate.

[Washougal_Otaku]

When the parent company is being sued for fraud and the plantiff has a good case against them, I think it means it does.

If an individual branch fails in some way, it usually is the parent company overall that gets sued.  That doesn't surprise me.  Also, if you have a good enough lawyer, you can make ANY case sound good.  It wouldn't surprise me if the company does get sued, though...

No. No it is not normal. How is it normal? You're not providing any evidence, you're just stating things are fact but show no reasons why. It isn't because they're not the same type of credits, it's because they're not credits from a regionally accredited school.

I'm stating this because I researched this over a decade ago, and several years since then.  I didn't use the internet that much, though; I usually used PAPER in the form of application forms, newspaper reviews, professional journals, and stuff like that.  Finding the sources of my knowledge would be too time consuming and, to be honest, not really worth my time...

You do realize that the students of these schools are given high-interest loans? Like, waaay above normal? Like, the kind that it's nearly impossible to pay back?

You do realize that it depends on the size of the loan, too?  And how much money you may or may not have made in the previous year?  And things like that?

Um, you do realize I'm talking about the for-profit school Le Cordon Bleu? Not the legit one? And really? You know people who went there and have successful careers, so it must be true, despite the fact that I'm showing you they're a fraud? Even if they did go to the one I'm talking about, there's still a few lucky people out of a large amount.

(Continuing inappropriate commentary removed.)

And yes, I do know people went through there.  Did you consider that many businesses prefer students of universities more?  This is true for any profession.  There are exceptions, and it's usually whether or not the exceptions were exceptional and had a great deal of experience, too.  Even then, it's usually tough to come by.  I also know THIS because my older sister attended dental assistant training at Apollo College (or Carrington, as I guess it's now called).  She was told of many students who were denied simply because they went to Apollo, rather than a university or community college; she only got her one job because she noticed the picture of the boss' kid and they started talking about children.  She was lucky.

(Continuing inappropriate commentary removed.)

I'm not saying that everything you're saying is wrong; I just don't think you're completely right about this, either.  I hate to say this, but it's true, "You get what you pay for," and all of those schools are typically of poor quality compared to a community college, and especially a university.

[@random]

If I was not explicitly clear, let me make it so: The cracks about people's age end NOW.

[MiriaRose]

When the parent company is being sued for fraud and the plantiff has a good case against them, I think it means it does.

If an individual branch fails in some way, it usually is the parent company overall that gets sued.  That doesn't surprise me.  Also, if you have a good enough lawyer, you can make ANY case sound good.  It wouldn't surprise me if the company does get sued, though...

Actually, the parent company has also been under various SEC and DoJ investigations in the past few years. One of their "colleges" was placed under probation by the accrediting institution they use. 60 Minutes did a program about a few of their "colleges", and showed admissions officers deliberately telling falsehoods. [1] Here's another unfavourable article by the San Francisco Weekly about falsehoods and omissions Le Cordon Bleu tells prospective students.

No. No it is not normal. How is it normal? You're not providing any evidence, you're just stating things are fact but show no reasons why. It isn't because they're not the same type of credits, it's because they're not credits from a regionally accredited school.

I'm stating this because I researched this over a decade ago, and several years since then.  I didn't use the internet that much, though; I usually used PAPER in the form of application forms, newspaper reviews, professional journals, and stuff like that.  Finding the sources of my knowledge would be too time consuming and, to be honest, not really worth my time...

Exact year, please? For curiosity's sake. And this is a debate. In a debate, you do not just say things are fact and then not back them up. 

I have given you reasons, and you've just said "oh I know it because I researched this over a decade ago." Out of curiosity, why were you researching it over a decade ago? You would've been 16 when CEC got the rights to use Le Cordon Bleu's name, and you've said yourself that you're not interested in the culinary arts as a career. In addition, if it were over a decade ago and the school was new, why would there be newspaper reviews and articles in professional journals when it had only been open for less than a year to a year?

You do realize that the students of these schools are given high-interest loans? Like, waaay above normal? Like, the kind that it's nearly impossible to pay back?

You do realize that it depends on the size of the loan, too?  And how much money you may or may not have made in the previous year?  And things like that?

I'm not talking about government loans, I'm talking about loans given by CEC. They don't care about that; they're out to make money, being a for-profit school.

And yes, I do know people went through there.  Did you consider that many businesses prefer students of universities more?  This is true for any profession.

So you think that a person who graduated from the actual Le Cordon Bleu in Paris would be denied a job in a restaurant compared to someone from University of Portland?

I'm not saying that everything you're saying is wrong; I just don't think you're completely right about this, either.  I hate to say this, but it's true, "You get what you pay for," and all of those schools are typically of poor quality compared to a community college, and especially a university.

Scams tend to be exempt from the "you get what you pay for" saying.

Also, thank you, randompvg.

[Washougal_Otaku]

Exact year, please? For curiosity's sake. And this is a debate. In a debate, you do not just say things are fact and then not back them up. 

I have given you reasons, and you've just said "oh I know it because I researched this over a decade ago." Out of curiosity, why were you researching it over a decade ago? You would've been 16 when CEC got the rights to use Le Cordon Bleu's name, and you've said yourself that you're not interested in the culinary arts as a career. In addition, if it were over a decade ago and the school was new, why would there be newspaper reviews and articles in professional journals when it had only been open for less than a year to a year?

The starting year would have been 1999, when I was a junior looking into schooling options.  I didn't say that I was looking at LCB itself, but schools along those lines.  I was researching it because I wanted to go to a college and/or university after high school.

So you think that a person who graduated from the actual Le Cordon Bleu in Paris would be denied a job in a restaurant compared to someone from University of Portland?

That's not even close to what I said.  I was referring to the ones here.

Scams tend to be exempt from the "you get what you pay for" saying.

Uh, no, scams are one of the main reasons WHY this saying was made.

[MiriaRose]

Exact year, please? For curiosity's sake. And this is a debate. In a debate, you do not just say things are fact and then not back them up.  

I have given you reasons, and you've just said "oh I know it because I researched this over a decade ago." Out of curiosity, why were you researching it over a decade ago? You would've been 16 when CEC got the rights to use Le Cordon Bleu's name, and you've said yourself that you're not interested in the culinary arts as a career. In addition, if it were over a decade ago and the school was new, why would there be newspaper reviews and articles in professional journals when it had only been open for less than a year to a year?

The starting year would have been 1999, when I was a junior looking into schooling options.  I didn't say that I was looking at LCB itself, but schools along those lines.  I was researching it because I wanted to go to a college and/or university after high school.

CEC's Le Cordon Bleu started up in 1999. There would have been little information on the academic quality of it back then, considering 1999 was its first year. What kind of schools were you looking at that were similar?

So you think that a person who graduated from the actual Le Cordon Bleu in Paris would be denied a job in a restaurant compared to someone from University of Portland?

That's not even close to what I said.  I was referring to the ones here.

You said that businesses prefer colleges or universities to Le Cordon Bleu by CEC. If the real Le Cordon Bleu is preferred to colleges or universities but the CEC one isn't, what is the difference?

Scams tend to be exempt from the "you get what you pay for" saying.

Uh, no, scams are one of the main reasons WHY this saying was made.

Not really. The saying refers to low-quality items that are inexpensive; ie. a cheap wig from China that is thin and made from Toyokalon. A scam is when you take that wig, photoshop pictures of it, say it's as good as a wig from Arda or Cyperous, put it on eBay, and charge $80 for it.

[Washougal_Otaku]

CEC's Le Cordon Bleu started up in 1999. There would have been little information on the academic quality of it back then, considering 1999 was its first year. What schools were you looking at that were similar?

Let's see..., I remember that Heald was one of them..., I think I looked at Apollo, too...

You said that businesses prefer colleges or universities to Le Cordon Bleu by CEC. If the real Le Cordon Bleu is preferred to colleges or universities but the CEC one isn't, what is the difference?

Um, one's a long-standing establishment if International fame, and the other one isn't.  (Didn't you point that out already?  I was sure you had...)

Not really. The saying refers to low-quality items that are inexpensive; ie. a cheap wig from China that is thin and made from Toyokalon. A scam is when you take that wig, photoshop pictures of it, say it's as good as a wig from Arda or Cyperous, put it on eBay, and charge $80 for it.

You're only thinking of one example (but a good one because it's relevant to many on these forums).  Other examples would include: buying a cheap set of headphones that only last for a week or two, investing lots of money into a weak organization to achieve a futile goal, donating to a charity that doesn't even exist because they said they were helping the children of "Lovingstan," smoking (in my personal opinion), losing your house to a casino, ...(okay, I think I'm getting a little carried away here).  Point being, there's plenty of examples for that phrase, and if these schools really are the scam-schools that you're claiming they are (which I'm sure some of them are, on at least some level), then the saying applies here, too.  In fact, you're really saying the same thing that I am with your example.

Charging a high-quality price for something of poor quality, placing ads about your deceit for potential customers, altering (or lying about) facts; these are key points for scams of all sorts, and still apply to the proverb that I mentioned.

Well, for the most part, this has been quite fun.  You're quite the skilled debater, Miria, as usual.  Even if I still disagree with some of the things that you've said, you've made some excellent points.  I only wish that I were able to present the evidence from my side, as you have; kind of the problem with my background info, though.  Even if I had saved the pamphlets & stuff, it's not like I could have shown them to you here, and I don't even remember the sites I went to way back when.  (Even if I did, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them had changed over the years ).  Well, time to go!

[@random]

You said that businesses prefer colleges or universities to Le Cordon Bleu by CEC. If the real Le Cordon Bleu is preferred to colleges or universities but the CEC one isn't, what is the difference?

Um, one's a long-standing establishment if International fame, and the other one isn't.  (Didn't you point that out already?  I was sure you had...)

Me, actually. Sorry for the confusion.

[Prinz Eugen]

For all those considering on-line or 'distance learning' education, google up [John Bear] and DIPSCAM.

Links:
http://www.quackwatch.com/04ConsumerEducation/dm0.html

John Bear has edited and updated his "Bear's Guide"  regularly, and besides tracking down phony degree mills he has also identified *GOOD* distance learning programs, and on the side, some 'novelty degree' companies which provide just-in-fun or silly services, like getting your dog a Ph. D. in 'Obedience and Companionship' that you can hang on his doghouse.

The two dangerous types of fraudulent practices he tracked down with DIPSCAM were so-called "Degree Replacement Services" (call up with a credit card and tell them you just had a fire and that your Masters in (whatever), cum laude, from Yale got burned up, and they will send you a 'replacement.' - The real life imposter of 'Catch Me if You Can' bought phony FAA credentials this way...)

...and another type issues cute misspellings of 'real' universities, such as "Cormell," or "Stamford University" which look like Cornell and Stanford in the Gothic lettering.
Also, where ever a real state university is "University of [State Name]" they offer "[State Name] University" degrees, or vice versa. Example: The phony mill will sell you a "Texas University" (fake) degree; but the "University of Texas" and "Texas Tech" are real schools.

One network of phony mills even set up a phone board of accreditation (example: "National Accreditation Board of Dental Educators" <- I just made that up, but I could register it as a company or LLC in a state, then 'approve' all my buddies' phony dental degree by mail scam mills... )