ZOOT SUITS!!!

[tas110]

so I am a zoot suiter. I zoot suit because I like the time period and anything swing, but I have noticed that some people wear zoot suits as "pimp" suits I think that is not classy at all and I am kinda getting annoyed with it. what are your thoughts on this?

http://browse.deviantart.com/?q=zoot+suit&order=9&offset=48#/d5v5pp   http://browse.deviantart.com/photography/?q=zoot+suit#/d43s8eu

[RemSaverem]

I think they're swank. I like them. Is there an anime or manga you could link them to, to increase their popularity? Maybe Baccano?

[Shadow]

O HEY BRO. POSTIN IN UR THREAD. (Punctuation fail on your part brah.)

Zoot Suits are classy as shiznit. It's unfortunate and frustrating that some people refer to them as being "pimp" (like you already said), because that's not what they represent. :/ At all.

My favorite Zoot Suits are red with white pinstripes.

[MiriaRose]

I don't think you guys know the origin of the zoot suit.

They weren't seen as "classy" by white Americans during the '30s. They were part of a Mexican, African American, and Italian subculture that formed during the '30s in America. The zoot was a form of independence and self-determination, and rebellion. They were a factor in the Zoot Suit Riots, in which white servicemen attacked Latino youths and the authorities did nothing.

Basically, this is cultural appropriation and you're really in no place to say what the meaning of the zoot suit is, seeing as you're not part of the subculture.

[@random]

Actually, around here anyone has the right to speak their peace as long as they do it civilly. It's fine to call out that which you believe is insensitive, but not to tell someone they can't say it.

_{(Unless it rises to the level of hate speech, that is. If it does, please hit the report button and the mods will be happy to tell them for you.)}

[TalaRedWolf33]

Um just wanted to say, how would you know what theyre part of? Maybe they knew what zoot suits meant back then, and are talking about what they mean now. You shouldnt troll. Its not nice.

[tas110]

I don't think you guys know the origin of the zoot suit.

They weren't seen as "classy" by white Americans during the '30s. They were part of a Mexican, African American, and Italian subculture that formed during the '30s in America. The zoot was a form of independence and self-determination, and rebellion. They were a factor in the Zoot Suit Riots, in which white servicemen attacked Latino youths and the authorities did nothing.

Basically, this is cultural appropriation and you're really in no place to say what the meaning of the zoot suit is, seeing as you're not part of the subculture.

thank you for your input. I do know the history behind zoot suits. I probably should have stated this more clearly, but I am talking about how some people "pimp out" zoot suits and how thats not historically accurate.

[MiriaRose]

Actually, around here anyone has the right to speak their peace as long as they do it civilly. It's fine to call out that which you believe is insensitive, but not to tell someone they can't say it.

_{(Unless it rises to the level of hate speech, that is. If it does, please hit the report button and the mods will be happy to tell them for you.)}

Sorry, it was less of "you have no right to" and more of "you really shouldn't". I'll be more clear next time.

Um just wanted to say, how would you know what theyre part of? Maybe they knew what zoot suits meant back then, and are talking about what they mean now. You shouldnt troll. Its not nice.

I'm not trolling. I don't troll on the Kumoricon forums.

I don't think you guys know the origin of the zoot suit.

They weren't seen as "classy" by white Americans during the '30s. They were part of a Mexican, African American, and Italian subculture that formed during the '30s in America. The zoot was a form of independence and self-determination, and rebellion. They were a factor in the Zoot Suit Riots, in which white servicemen attacked Latino youths and the authorities did nothing.

Basically, this is cultural appropriation and you're really in no place to say what the meaning of the zoot suit is, seeing as you're not part of the subculture.

thank you for your input. I do know the history behind zoot suits. I probably should have stated this more clearly, but I am talking about how some people "pimp out" zoot suits and how thats not historically accurate.

Do you mean the versions that are different colours or pinstriped? Because those are definitely historically accurate- Bright colours and ostentatious prints were common for zoot suits. Also, if you're not black, Hispanic, or Italian-American, it's historically inaccurate for you to wear a zoot suit anyway.

[Shadow]

Also, if you're not black, Hispanic, or Italian-American, it's historically inaccurate for you to wear a zoot suit anyway.

That is so close-minded to say. So people can't enjoy this style of clothing without being of the "historically accurate" ethnic? Zoot Suiters don't have to be of ANY specific ethnicity in order to express their appreciation for this style of clothing. And that goes for ANY period-specific clothing or costuming.

Zoot Suits were popularized by the ethnicities you listed. Not strictly limited to.

[Chromophobic]

...I've never heard of them until reading this thread... XD But they do look awesome!~

[MiriaRose]

Also, if you're not black, Hispanic, or Italian-American, it's historically inaccurate for you to wear a zoot suit anyway.

That is so close-minded to say. So people can't enjoy this style of clothing without being of the "historically accurate" ethnic? Zoot Suiters don't have to be of ANY specific ethnicity in order to express their appreciation for this style of clothing. And that goes for ANY period-specific clothing or costuming.

Zoot Suits were popularized by the ethnicities you listed. Not strictly limited to.

Erm. I think you missed the point of what I was saying, sorry. I was saying that it really doesn't matter if how one wears the zoot is historically inaccurate, because in the 1930s you would not have seen WASP men and women running around in zoot suits.

I don't really care if someone who isn't x ethnicity wears the zoot suit- I'm just saying it's good to know its origins and denouncing others for wearing it "historically inaccurate" is hypocritical.

[RemSaverem]

Ok um. Most of us at Kumoricon are not Japanese, and we do a bunch of things that relate to Japanese culture, that some can call homage, and others can call cultural appropriation.

I am all for knowing the historicity of something someone is wearing.

I am all for not knowingly offending someone by what someone is wearing.

I am also of the opinion that in most cases, other than an extreme such as a swastika, which, btw, I've seen recently in cosplay, most people are really not offended by anyone wearing anything. Especially not in a community of cosplayers.

Knowledge is great. Berating is not.

[Saki-the-cat]

It's amazing how people can come into a thread with a silly little subject such as this and turn it into a full-blown debate on history.

Why don't we all just pull the sticks out of our butts and think "damn, that's one fine-ass suit.", without having to worry about where it came from and who should and shouldn't wear it.

[MiriaRose]

Ok um. Most of us at Kumoricon are not Japanese, and we do a bunch of things that relate to Japanese culture, that some can call homage, and others can call cultural appropriation.

I am all for knowing the historicity of something someone is wearing.

I am all for not knowingly offending someone by what someone is wearing.

I am also of the opinion that in most cases, other than an extreme such as a swastika, which, btw, I've seen recently in cosplay, most people are really not offended by anyone wearing anything. Especially not in a community of cosplayers.

Knowledge is great. Berating is not.

Again, I'm not berating anyone for wearing a zoot suit just because of their ethnicity- I was saying that it was hypocritical to get mad because someone isn't wearing a zoot suit exactly how the zoot suiters in the '30s did. Also, calling brightly coloured or pinstriped zoot suits historically inaccurate is ridiculous and makes it seem like the person talking doesn't know much about the history of zoot suits, hence the appropriation.

Saki, I just dislike it when people get mad over this sort of thing. There's nothing wrong with creative anachronism. 

[RemSaverem]

Ok um. Most of us at Kumoricon are not Japanese, and we do a bunch of things that relate to Japanese culture, that some can call homage, and others can call cultural appropriation.

I am all for knowing the historicity of something someone is wearing.

I am all for not knowingly offending someone by what someone is wearing.

I am also of the opinion that in most cases, other than an extreme such as a swastika, which, btw, I've seen recently in cosplay, most people are really not offended by anyone wearing anything. Especially not in a community of cosplayers.

Knowledge is great. Berating is not.

Again, I'm not berating anyone for wearing a zoot suit just because of their ethnicity- I was saying that it was hypocritical to get mad because someone isn't wearing a zoot suit exactly how the zoot suiters in the '30s did. Also, calling brightly coloured or pinstriped zoot suits historically inaccurate is ridiculous and makes it seem like the person talking doesn't know much about the history of zoot suits, hence the appropriation.

Saki, I just dislike it when people get mad over this sort of thing. There's nothing wrong with creative anachronism. 

Being a long-time LARPer in the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism), I agree

[Shadow]

Also, calling brightly coloured or pinstriped zoot suits historically inaccurate is ridiculous and makes it seem like the person talking doesn't know much about the history of zoot suits, hence the appropriation.

Nobody called them historically inaccurate. The original poster knows that for a fact, seeing as he owns a bright red and white pinstripe suit himself. :/ He knows the history on them. Perhaps not all there is to know about them, but knowledge none the less. Case closed on that.

Look.

The opinion the original post is expressing is how the suits in modern times are, by some, seen as being "pimp" or associating them with such a culture.

[tas110]

^ this is what I am trying to discuss. I am trying to get my soot suit "period accurate". my shoes and a few other items are about 76 years old. I do know about the time period.

thank you shadow for exsplaning what this thread is supposed to be about. I could not have done it without you.

[MiriaRose]

Ok um. Most of us at Kumoricon are not Japanese, and we do a bunch of things that relate to Japanese culture, that some can call homage, and others can call cultural appropriation.

I am all for knowing the historicity of something someone is wearing.

I am all for not knowingly offending someone by what someone is wearing.

I am also of the opinion that in most cases, other than an extreme such as a swastika, which, btw, I've seen recently in cosplay, most people are really not offended by anyone wearing anything. Especially not in a community of cosplayers.

Knowledge is great. Berating is not.

Again, I'm not berating anyone for wearing a zoot suit just because of their ethnicity- I was saying that it was hypocritical to get mad because someone isn't wearing a zoot suit exactly how the zoot suiters in the '30s did. Also, calling brightly coloured or pinstriped zoot suits historically inaccurate is ridiculous and makes it seem like the person talking doesn't know much about the history of zoot suits, hence the appropriation.

Saki, I just dislike it when people get mad over this sort of thing. There's nothing wrong with creative anachronism. 

Being a long-time LARPer in the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism), I agree

Yay! A fellow SCA member! 

Also, calling brightly coloured or pinstriped zoot suits historically inaccurate is ridiculous and makes it seem like the person talking doesn't know much about the history of zoot suits, hence the appropriation.

Nobody called them historically inaccurate. The original poster knows that for a fact, seeing as he owns a bright red and white pinstripe suit himself. :/ He knows the history on them. Perhaps not all there is to know about them, but knowledge none the less. Case closed on that.

Look.

The opinion the original post is expressing is how the suits in modern times are, by some, seen as being "pimp" or associating them with such a culture.

Alright, alright. I wasn't sure what OP meant by "pimping-out" zoot suits and I presumed that he meant them being different colours or pinstriped. I shouldn't have assumed and I apologize for doing so.

Tas110, what did you mean by "pimping-out", if I may ask?

[tas110]

The patten for the suit being off, bling, or leopard print things.... Stuff like that.

[MiriaRose]

Hrm. Well, what's wrong with those patterns? Aside from historical inaccuracy. Personally, I think they fit the aesthetic pretty well.

But then again, I like Victorian gothic clothing and that is in no way historically accurate.

[Washougal_Otaku]

RIOT!!!

[Prinz Eugen]

....you're really in no place to say what the meaning of the zoot suit is, seeing as you're not part of the subculture.

Yeah, the original poster may have apologized for this, but it really is a prejudiced and almost racist kind of statement.
"You are not allowed to comment on / participate in subculture [X] unless you're already a part of it"
... is unnecessarily exclusionary. The countervailing fact is that no one (in a free country) has any exclusive right to tell me what culture or ethnic attributes I am NOT ALLOWED to choose and adopt for my own use, pleasure, and experimentation. The fundamental underpinning right comes from the phrase "the pursuit of happiness" which in the USA at least is recognised as an inalienable right - which means it is something that no government and no group of persons and no individual can deny any one person from pursuing.

This means that if I have a liking and appreciation of the 8 virtues of the Bushido, that I am free to study, seek those out, and incorporate them into my own being without any limitation based on factors such as my eye color, hair color, where my parents or great-grandparents were born, our native languages, what church I go to, if at all, etc, and I don't have to be Japanese to have a right to follow the Bushido code if that is what I want to incorporate into my own life. I am not a 'faker' or a 'weeaboo' if I choose to do so.

Therefore, we should ALL be able to DISMISS any claims such as "you are in no place to say what the meaning of [ x ] is," for that is the same kind of prejudice and bigoted attitude that says "You have no right to 'these' water fountains or 'those' seats at the front of the bus; based on your genetic make-up you are obviously limited to the 'colored' water fountain and the seats at the BACK of the bus. The notion that "you have no right to experiment with the articles of this culture" is immorally exclusionary and needs to be flagged as inappropriate.

The same holds true for the flawed opinion that "Well, you may have a right to do so, but you really shouldn't do so, based on your physical appearance, genotype, phenotype or family heritage..."

No one has any right to tell me what I cannot do or cannot play with based on my own ancestry or physical appearance. OK?!?

....you're really in no place to say

is totally bee-ess, OK? NOBODY kicks me out. OK? NOBODY.

(Edit: I mean no ill will to the poster of this quote or to anyone else. Let's all feel free to explore all human cultures from all peoples and eras.)