The ethics of wearing a Nazi uniform

[hikaru_maxwell]

I said people have the RIGHT to cosplay whatever they want. Because they do. Whether or not they SHOULD is a different story altogether. Just as you have the right to walk up to a cosplayer wearing an SS uniform and tell them to their face that they 'can't/arent allowed to' wear the cosplay, it's pretty clear that you probably SHOULDN'T.

I never said you shouldn't tell them its offensive to you, but the way the tone of certain posts about the issue have come out on the forums so far, it's been very confrontational, which is something I definitely think should NOT be taken into a real life discussion with a cosplayer who might be wearing such a uniform.

Whether someone cosplays an SS!Uniform (from whatever country), is up to them. Whether someone chooses to talk to them about it and let them know it's offensive is up to the person in question. Whether it should be worn at all (it would be in very bad taste) is in question, and the subject of discussion here. The morality of whether someone should wear something that might be a trigger for a great many people (isn't that what we are discussing?). The right of a person to wear what they please should not be a question, because everyone has the right to wear what they will as long as they are not breaking the law. Everyone else has the right to speak vocally AGAINST the person wearing what they want to wear (free speech is a wonderful thing). What I'm worried about is that when the person wearing and the person speaking come into contact with each other, if it's not handled correctly, it could erupt in a situation that's not desirable for anyone involved.

(For instance, this discussion has already caused at least one person to lose friends and break from the fandom entirely. NOT a good outcome.)

edit: accidentally left out a word.

[RemSaverem]

Cosplay is about building community.
Cosplay is about showing a love for the world of fandom in general.
Therefore anyone creating a cosplay that they specifically know will be divisive & hurtful, is destroying the very fabric of community that justifies allowing cosplay to begin with.

The audacity, the sense of entitlement, it reeks of privilege and ignorance. It makes me feel like I am about to vomit, just to think about it.

I did see someone at con, with an arm band. I froze. I felt sick. I did not know what to do. I did not know what I was allowed to do. And I had to get to my own panel and be a panelist, so I just meditated and composed myself and reminded myself these thoughts: "The person might just be an ignorant person with entitlement issues and not a person deliberately trying to hurt other people. Just simply not caring that they of course will hurt other people." <<EDIT>> I do not know who this was. I, and they, are better off if I never find out. Anger is not helpful. I just did Tashlich to try to let go of anger. I am repeating here the meditation I had to go through just to go perform my own panel, after how upset I was seeing the rude and audacious & presumptuous & insensitive act of someone wearing a Swastika for fun. This does not mean I think whoever did it has no other worth in the world. Just....about the worst possible judgement within the cosplay context.

But neither of those should be acceptable ethics in the overall cosplay community, even if, legally, they have to be tolerated among those paying to attend the con.

I did not check, but I sure hope that person was not wearing a staff badge. Could you imagine the potential fallout if a local were offended/scared and saw the symbol of mass genocide being worn for fun **by a staffer**? As part of the Publicity Dept this year, I shudder to think.......

This does raise an interesting question. Are there different rules, or expectations, written or unwritten, legally operationalizable or not, for those who are actively acting as staff at the con, and those who aren't, vis-a-vis ethics & cosplays?

<<EDIT>> It happens that I am a fan of Max's work from way back in the earliest days of KC fanfic, & the Beta station, <3 for that.

I happen to think that there are times it is advisable, and times it is inadvisable, to take a "devil's advocate" role. (BTW: I learned from an otaku pal, who is also a priest, who gave a panel at MEW Con for us, what it really means, to be a "devil's advocate". It means to argue against the miracles being presented for canonizing a new saint.)

My perspective is of course informed by my personal and family history. But regardless of such, just look at it this way.

It is selfish for anyone to believe that their privilege to get away with wearing whatever floats their boat, is vastly more important than whether anyone would be genuinely traumatized by their wearing of it.

I am not talking about someone simply having distaste. I am not talking about someone having bigotry (like about crossplay). I am talking about genuine, takes awhile to recover, full-blown PTSD, trauma. That anyone would think "I feel like wearing something that will remind people their ancestors were murdered today" is simply unfathomable and indefensible, ethically, albeit that it could be contended for, in a court of law, or a debate.

<<EDIT>> Imagine if someone showed up at con and they were wearing a t-shirt that said "She wasn't raped. She was asking for it." Just imagine it. Would it hypothetically be protected by First Amendment rights? Maybe, but what of it? It would be deliberately antagonistic, consciously choosing to be offensive, to start fights, to retraumatize those of us (statistically known to be 1 in 4 females, 1 in 10 males---and everyone knows that rapes are underreported) who have been raped.

Would you want, say, Subway employees & noncongoing customers, seeing someone wearing a Kumoricon badge over that T-shirt? Especially a KC staff badge?

Of course not. Well, I feel the same about the swastika cosplays. The general public, the folks where you go buy your food, the Alanon folks at the Labor Day party in the park, the folks on your public transit, the hotel employees .....they have the right to not be retraumatized. Do you expect all of them to have any clue someone with a swastika is simply playing dress up?

<<EDIT>> Here's a thought that is entirely realistic. Most of us know that there are people of every gender who crossplay without it meaning that they are gay (though some may be). Many people unfamiliar with the prevalence of crossplay in otaku culture will look at guys who are crossplaying and assume they are gay. What would staff do if homophobes showed up in "G-d hates fags" tshirts at KC like they do at funerals of gay soldiers? IMHO if someone clearly were arriving in incendiary clothing just to make an obnoxious statement to make others uncomfortable, they should not be allowed to buy a badge.

How different would that be than knowingly showing up wearing a symbol of genocide?

[kylite]

Sadly I cannot comment on this as a moderator anymore however I can speak on this form the standpoint of a Yojimbo at the convention.

When we receive a complaint regarding a cosplay we usually speak to the person(s) concerned and try to work out a compromise or win/win for both parties.

I understand people take offense to certian coslays and that is their right, however on the flip side of the coin the people cosplaying have woked hard to replicate a charactor.

Sadly I cannot admit to being completely neutral in this as we have taken a stand on the Pedobear front as flat out not allowed.

Alot of animes use the Nazi uniform and it is very easily replicated for cosplay thus its not something we can draw a line on.

[@random]

_{As with any other post where I don't speak in blue text, I'm speaking only for myself - not as a moderator or representing Kumoricon in any fashion.}

A belated apology for the thread's title, the more that I think about it: "Nazi" wasn't the correct word to use. The original debate was over an SS uniform; "Nazi" was a bow to the colloquial usage.

At least as I understand it, wearing an SS uniform is not so much akin to wearing KKK robes as it is to wearing KKK robes while carrying a noose and a burning cross. The SS were the arm of the Nazi party in carrying out their worst atrocities, and it makes perfect sense that a Holocaust survivor seeing an SS uniform would very likely experience PTSD.

The best way to resolve this debate might be for anyone who considers wearing an SS uniform to read up on the history of exactly what they're representing: Look up names like Heinrich Himmler, Rudolf Höss, SS-Totenkopfverbände, and Einsatzgruppen on Wikipedia for a start. (Fair warning, it's very definitely not PG-13 material. In fact, you may be sick afterward.

[Jacob_Blackfeather]

Guys I love all your oppinions I wanted to ask just to know all of this because I wanted to know both sides of it because I really don't want to hurt anyone in anyway so it's more of a right for me to cosplay something else then cosplay this personally I find all of your intresting and I can understand both sides. Thank you.

[RemSaverem]

@ Kylite, I have no idea what a Pedobear costume would look like.
@ randompvg, that is a valid comparison. But I do not think that nazis outside the SS were innocent nor that most people would know the difference. Most would be equally disgusted & disturbed by either.

I would like to know what anyone would think they are going to accomplish by dressing this way.

[jaqua]

_{At least as I understand it, wearing an SS uniform is not so much akin to wearing KKK robes as it is to wearing KKK robes while carrying a noose and a burning cross. The SS were the arm of the Nazi party in carrying out their worst atrocities, and it makes perfect sense that a Holocaust survivor seeing an SS uniform would very likely experience PTSD.}

This is a point I was just going to make, thank you for saying it!

Another reason I think SS uniforms are considered "okay" is because, frankly, they've been sexualized and fetishized to a point where they almost, in the mainstream (of teenagers/young adults who aren't of the Jewish faith or ancestry), don't even represent the fear and horror they should-- they're more of a costume that represents power and domination. Usually when I hear people talking about Nazi/SS uniforms, it's because they think they're "sexy" or "hot" or something equally unsettling and nauseating. And when something evil is portrayed as being... "Sexy", I guess, it loses a lot of its original meaning.

[AllyKat]

_{At least as I understand it, wearing an SS uniform is not so much akin to wearing KKK robes as it is to wearing KKK robes while carrying a noose and a burning cross. The SS were the arm of the Nazi party in carrying out their worst atrocities, and it makes perfect sense that a Holocaust survivor seeing an SS uniform would very likely experience PTSD.}

This is a point I was just going to make, thank you for saying it!

Another reason I think SS uniforms are considered "okay" is because, frankly, they've been sexualized and fetishized to a point where they almost, in the mainstream (of teenagers/young adults who aren't of the Jewish faith or ancestry), don't even represent the fear and horror they should-- they're more of a costume that represents power and domination. Usually when I hear people talking about Nazi/SS uniforms, it's because they think they're "sexy" or "hot" or something equally unsettling and nauseating. And when something evil is portrayed as being... "Sexy", I guess, it loses a lot of its original meaning.

That MIGHT be akin to how some woman, even those who have been raped often have rape fantasies or desire situations where they are being dominated or controlled. Some psychologists think this has something to do with the desire to be able to control the circumstances of something that could be out of our control normally. I'm not sure how it works, but I've read statistics that say this sort of mentality is on the rise.

Maybe its a symptom of our society - we are so over sensitized that we allow ourselves to take destructive things and embody or experience them first person to satisfy some sense of control of the uncontrollable?

Maybe a bit off track - I don't know if that would be a good justification for where the garb of an organization responsible for attempted genocide...

Then again, this is the society that watches Shows like DEXTER (full disclosure; I love that show) so we are already way more effed up than is probably safe.

[Jacob_Blackfeather]

what if people want to show off history people are afraid to show is what i am wondering.

[jaqua]

@Jacob: I feel like there are better ways to do it than... you know, dressing like a Nazi?

@Ally: That might also be a part of it. Psychology is so strange.

Maaaaaan I love the idea behind Dexter though, the whole "vigilante going out and doing the justice the law can't" thing. It's like more realistic superheroes! Which is super cool!

[GregAtlas]

I believe AllyKat put things very well on page 3. I was trying to bite my tongue for a while on this before putting my opinion into words, but that pretty much sumed the majority of my feelings up. Thank you.

I have no love for the nazi party either, but if you look deeply enough at what they represent, certain people (not willing to name names) who have been wanting to ban a cosplay just because it has a symbol on it are on the verge of being as bad as the nazi's. Some of these posts have been on the virge (if not crossing the line) of victimizing others over a cosplay that for all you know may have been designed just to start controversy. You see it in movies, books, games, etc. all the time where the director/author intended to stir up emotion or perhaps make people remember the past.

And the worst part about it, is that there is a level of hypocrisy here. I doubt the people that are spreading so much hate on this thread realize that they probably like/idolize certain characters or groups from anime or games. Sephiroth is a big example of what I am talking about and nobody complains about him despite him going on a murdering rampage. True he isn't a real person, but there are plenty of other examples that can be used of characters that were based on real people. You probably will not find anybody taking offense to a Woody from Toy Story cosplayer despite him being a cowboy and we know there were certain instances between cowboys and indians.

Again, I have no love for the nazi's, but that is no excuse for acting like them. Please keep things civil and perhaps look in the mirror first before hating what someone's skin color, country of origin, hair color, religion, clothing. Don't disrespect the people like my grandfather who died or were changed because they fought for the freedoms you are wanting to take away. You have the right to your own opinion and to voice that opinion or even to shun/stay away from that person.

Yes, PTSD is a possibility and ideally I wish this topic would never be an issue, but using it as an excuse to victimize others is no excuse.

Another sad thing is that the people that really need to read and understand this post probably will not even bother to take the time to fully understand and comprehend it because they see that I'm defending some of the worst people in our history, which I am not. I am only hoping that at least some of these people will realize they are repeating history over something like a costume.

Is it right or wrong to cosplay a Nazi? Is it right to reenact the civil war from the southern side? Is is right to cosplay your favorite villain who tries to take over/destroy the world? Use tact in your decision. Just like wearing a skimpy outfit you have the risk of being glomped or even sexually harassed, in this case there is certain risks, but in the USA we have no right to say whether or not someone can wear that cosplay or not.

[Venusgate]

I came to post something about suppression and possibly inflammatory,


...[redacted]


BRESSLER EDIT: Please do not make drug references on the forums.

Rebuttal of edit: My point being - I think if you are offended by a fake, fake Nazi uniform, you are taking life too seriously.

If you have a serious psychological condition - the world will not conform to your needs, you should know this by now.

If you stand up for said variety of person, be a better friend and just guide them away or if the cat's out of the bag, be there for them to calm them down.

BRESSLER EDIT 2: Please take any moderation ruling disputes to PM.

[Malaria]

I believe AllyKat put things very well on page 3. I was trying to bite my tongue for a while on this before putting my opinion into words, but that pretty much sumed the majority of my feelings up. Thank you.

I have no love for the nazi party either, but if you look deeply enough at what they represent, certain people (not willing to name names) who have been wanting to ban a cosplay just because it has a symbol on it are on the verge of being as bad as the nazi's.

Did you just... Godwin's Law in the Nazi thread?
Not sure if trolling, so I'll just respond to the rest of your post as if you aren't.

Some of these posts have been on the virge (if not crossing the line) of victimizing others over a cosplay that for all you know may have been designed just to start controversy. You see it in movies, books, games, etc. all the time where the director/author intended to stir up emotion or perhaps make people remember the past.

I can understand the idea of an artistic endeavor, pulling the strings, questioning the human condition, all that. Except that this is definitely tread and re-tread ground. Summoning the emotional ghosts of the Nazis in a piece of art, is also very different from just dressing as a Nazi for funsies. For one thing, people can choose (mostly) whether or not they're going to submit themselves to that emotional turmoil and mashing of trauma buttons, because they know ahead of time and have the opportunity to steel themselves. If you're just making your way around and a con and suddenly Nazis, there's no consent involved. All the trauma buttons get mashed whether you watched the movies with the Nazis or not.

And the worst part about it, is that there is a level of hypocrisy here. I doubt the people that are spreading so much hate on this thread realize that they probably like/idolize certain characters or groups from anime or games. Sephiroth is a big example of what I am talking about and nobody complains about him despite him going on a murdering rampage. True he isn't a real person, but there are plenty of other examples that can be used of characters that were based on real people. You probably will not find anybody taking offense to a Woody from Toy Story cosplayer despite him being a cowboy and we know there were certain instances between cowboys and indians.

again, trolling?
Sephiroth isn't a major source of trauma for a large proportion of the world's population. There's a pretty big difference between an international symbol of hate and a video game character.

"Cowboys and Indians" is a pretty misleading phrase, since most of the people we think of as cowboys weren't the ones responsible for the displacement of the genocide and displacement of peoples. He isn't dressed as a soldier from the period, he's a rural sherriff. And even then, not even a remotely historically accurate one. Just because particular fashions coincided with a period in which the United States was committing atrocities doesn't mean everyone who wore that particular fashion was responsible for the genocide of First Nations. But you can't say that for SS uniforms.

Again, I have no love for the nazi's, but that is no excuse for acting like them. Please keep things civil and perhaps look in the mirror first before hating what someone's skin color, country of origin, hair color, religion, clothing. Don't disrespect the people like my grandfather who died or were changed because they fought for the freedoms you are wanting to take away. You have the right to your own opinion and to voice that opinion or even to shun/stay away from that person.

Godwin's Law again. This is almost meta.

Clothes aren't blameless. Symbols have power, and people who don't feel threatened or powerless in the face of those symbols don't get to tell the rest of us that they're "just clothes." No one wants to take away anyone's freedoms. No one has suggested that wearing a swastika or a Nazi uniform should be illegal. We're saying that it's morally an awful thing to do, socially a dumb thing to do, not in any way historically valuable or clever, and an act of gross disrespect for your fellow human.

Yes, PTSD is a possibility and ideally I wish this topic would never be an issue, but using it as an excuse to victimize others is no excuse.

why am I responding so seriously to a troll post
You can't wish away PTSD, and it frightens me that you're so willing to dismiss it. That's what I mean when I say "gross disrespect for your fellow human." Acknowledging that other people have trauma, triggers and painful associations means acknowledging that individuals will be hurt by people in Nazi uniforms.

In what way is telling people not to wear SS uniforms victimizing them?
I just
what

Another sad thing is that the people that really need to read and understand this post probably will not even bother to take the time to fully understand and comprehend it because they see that I'm defending some of the worst people in our history, which I am not. I am only hoping that at least some of these people will realize they are repeating history over something like a costume.

Asking people not to do something explicitly painful is not in any way the same as genocide. Seriously, Godwin's Law all around here.
Please be a troll. For my peace of mind.

Is it right or wrong to cosplay a Nazi?

I'm pretty comfortable saying that it's wrong. Because I don't want my fellow person to suffer, and I don't want to see a safe, fun space become fraught and deeply uncomfortable. Maybe you didn't read my earlier post, but another con attendee, a friend of mine, had an actual real life anxiety attack after seeing the Schrodinger cosplayer wearing the swastika.

Is it right to reenact the civil war from the southern side?

The actual war part of the Civil War doesn't reenact the crimes of slavery. It might be triggering for people who've been in combat zones, though. It's a good thing that reenactments generally happen in isolated areas, with a self-selecting group of people who can judge for themselves whether or not they'll find it traumatic. Unlike the problem of SUDDENLY NAZIS in what you assumed was just a safe, fun space.

Is is right to cosplay your favorite villain who tries to take over/destroy the world? Use tact in your decision.

Fictional villains are rarely sources of trauma for broad swathes of people. Which is personally what my problem is with Nazi cosplayers. Because they are actually causing pain to members of their own community.

Just like wearing a skimpy outfit you have the risk of being glomped or even sexually harassed, in this case there is certain risks, but in the USA we have no right to say whether or not someone can wear that cosplay or not.

Bolded portion is so victim blame-y I choked on my cereal, but we've already had the feminist thread. To keep it short, sexual harassment and glomping still happen regardless of what you're wearing, and no one "invites" that behavior through their clothes. The only people responsible for hurting others are the people who are hurting them.

From a legal standpoint, that's definitely true. That doesn't make it any less morally wrong.

[Malaria]

what if people want to show off history people are afraid to show is what i am wondering.

The world of Nazi Germany-era scholarship is a big one. There're journals, museums, movies, plays, musicals, TV series, books, all in a variety of languages from a variety of perspectives. Wearing an SS uniform for a Hetalia cosplay is not going to cover any new intellectual or emotional ground. What it will do is it will cause me, specifically, pain. It's going to cause Rem pain, and it's going to cause my friend who had the anxiety attack pain. That's three individual people that would be hurt without serving any sort of intellectual cause.

Of course, you still have the legal right to wear it. You just have to decide if you're willing to be that hurtful. Whether you think that your right to mess around in a costume is more important than the very real pain you're going to cause.

As always, every "you" is a general, specific only to someone who is seriously considering wearing a Nazi uniform for funsies.

edited for minor grammar durr

[RemSaverem]

100% of everything in Malaria's 2 posts above is astutely written, entirely correct, I am in 100% agreement with both of her posts. Though I would appreciate clarification on the term 'Godwin's Law', as I do not recall previously encountering it. If you choose to become a lawyer, I'd hire you

@ Greg, you are so off base it is astonishing and honestly barely worth my time to reply to, when Malaria has already done so so effectively and accurately. Daring to allege that  that a need for a safe space free from deliberate capricious and unnecessary retraumatizing, is akin to systematically planning complete genocide of multiple groups of people, is so ridiculous as to be inexcusable. It's like comparing someone who wrote a term paper about how we should be sensitive to how Hibakusha (survivors of the bombings of Hirsohima and Nagasaki) might react, if we published a webcomic that portrayed the bombings in a humorous light, to the people who passed the orders to drop the actual bombs.

Daring to compare massive loss of 12 million bona fide human lives with the story arcs of illustrations indicating pen and ink or celluloid representations of artistic imagination is also so beyond the bounds of good taste as to really make me hope I never meet you in person. Honestly if someone is traumatized by the number of deaths in a video game, manga or anime all they have to do is choose not to partake of that particular visual again. How dare you even make the comparison?

Thank G-d for Malaria's posts so there is some logic and compassion and true direction in this thread.

[Malaria]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law
Probably should've linked it to begin with. Sorry about that.

Haha, that'd make law school worth it.

[RemSaverem]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law
Probably should've linked it to begin with. Sorry about that.

Haha, that'd make law school worth it.

Todah rabah.
And you're on.
 
L'Shana Tova U'metukah

Ok, read the link....Yes, that's exactly what occurred. Sigh. Hyperbolic is an understatement....

<<EDIT>> When there are individuals who are unsure how their actions or choices might affect others, and they proactively elect to seek input, and  then, they actively contemplate said input and interpolate it into their decision-making matrix in a responsible, sensitive way, then those are individuals that I respect for taking mature and thoughtful steps.

When there are privileged immature people with entitlement issues who are deliberately inflammatory and consciously insensitive, like "screw y'all if you get hurt, I'm'a do what I want for funsies," they deserve all the ostracizing and verbal condemnation they logically bring upon themselves as their karma, and quite honestly, they will be lucky if that's all they get, especially out in the community beyond the should-be-safe haven of the con.

<<EDIT>> When I was hanging out in the anarchist punk DIY community, there were boneheads (Neo-nazi skinheads) who would come to our music festivals just to beat up anyone they looked at askance: people of color, effeminate males presumed gay, SHARPs & ARA (SkinHeads Against Racial Prejudice & members of Anti-Racist Action, another anti-Nazi punk movement). The prevalence of ACTUAL cult members/ violent crew members is particularly high in the Pacific Northwest. It is not like there haven't been deaths at  the hands of self-professed Nazis since the '40s. And many of them are at the hands of teens. Moreover so are hate crimes against synagogues. I lived directly across the street from Temple Beth Israel, here in Eugene, Oregon, into which 12 armor piercing rounds were fired from semi-automatic rifles by self-identified Aryan Youth, teens from a neo-Nazi cult with members Oregon to Idaho.

So in addition to how much idiocy and insensitivity and retraumatizing accompany cosplaying a Nazi, whomever is callous enough to do it genuinely runs the risk of being mistaken for one of these bonehead teen cult members. And believe me, if you are mistaken for a violent racist thug, by the wrong person, you could end up beaten up, or worse. I've seen it happen. You don't want it to happen. No costume is worth it. No arrogant desire to prove a point about is worth it.

<<EDIT>> If you deliberately dress like someone who wants to commit mass murder -- of real people, in the real world, with adherents remaining, still, today, here, in Oregon-- , and then someone mistakes you for someone who wants to commit mass murder -- of real people, in the real world, here, today--, and responds by trying to proactively contain you, would you honestly say you blame them?   If you're out on the street dressed like Sephiroth, it's obvious it's a costume. If you're out on the street dressed like a Nazi, it's not obvious it's a costume, because genuine perpetuators of modern day hate crimes and murders still dress that way to deliberately intimidate people. These are in no way whatsoever comparable costume choices, and anyone who mistakes them for such is honestly in danger of receiving the violent attacks they callously choose to pretend to endorse via their costume choices.

<<EDIT>> If the con were  to undertake to expand upon the Pedobear precedent by banning swastika-based cosplays, it not only would be protecting congoers from what Malaria described as the turn the corner woah unexpected Nazi traumatizing, but it honestly would be protecting the safety of anyone arrogant enough to think it's a fun way to dress, from being mistaken for someone who really means it politically and thus would be an instant target for retaliatory violence on the street. If someone is walking around in a teddy bear fursuit I doubt people would instantly look at  them on the street and say They are a  threat to me, I must beat them up first. Walking around as though you're Aryan Youth or White Aryan Nations in the wrong part of town is going to get you jumped or worse.....really. I cannot emphasize this enough. There are people who would jump (by which I mean stalk, surprise and beat up) a suspected neo-Nazi skinhead on sight. There are entire anti-racist skinhead groups that deliberately go out and find the boneheads and prevent them from engaging violence, by proactively containing them. I have seen it, it is ugly, it is gang warfare, and if you really think you would be exempt from it because if someone looks closely enough, you're actually just a teen girl with money to spare, you're wrong. They won't take the time. They'll see the uniform, they'll see the swastika, they'll be triggered, you could get boot partied. That's where a gang of people hold you down on the ground and take turns stomping on you, especially on your uniform and your face, with their Doc Maartens or other steel-toed boots. I have seen the aftermath. I have nursed back to health someone who was boot partied for being a hippie who was perceived to be in the way of a skinhead gang. I am genuinely afraid for anyone who would cosplay a Nazi, that this could happen to them. And I am genuinely afraid for the con, for the inevitable liability lawsuit that would enuse, if this happened to a congoer on their way to or from con. Trust me that this is not me being hyperbolic. I am erring on the conservative side here by refraining from giving the exact details of everything I've seen happen to actual and presumed boneheads.

<<EDIT>> It would take years for the con to recover, if ever, if something like that were to happen. I am not exaggerating.

BTW as to the Civil War Re-enactment comparison. Totally not a valid comparison. Because when someone makes the choice to attend a re-enactment, they know exactly what they are going to get. They know what sides will be portrayed, they know the outcome, it is like a very elaborately costumed LARP with an emphasis on historicity. Anyone choosing to attend such knows precisely that there will be people costumed as side A & side B of whatever war scenario is being re-enacted, AND they know that those attending are not actually modern-day proponents of whatever the 'bad guy' in the role-play scenario is. That would be like assuming that everyone in the Camarilla really drains people for their blood after game.

[MiriaRose]

I said people have the RIGHT to cosplay whatever they want. Because they do. Whether or not they SHOULD is a different story altogether. Just as you have the right to walk up to a cosplayer wearing an SS uniform and tell them to their face that they 'can't/arent allowed to' wear the cosplay, it's pretty clear that you probably SHOULDN'T.

I never said you shouldn't tell them its offensive to you, but the way the tone of certain posts about the issue have come out on the forums so far, it's been very confrontational, which is something I definitely think should NOT be taken into a real life discussion with a cosplayer who might be wearing such a uniform.

Whether someone cosplays an SS!Uniform (from whatever country), is up to them. Whether someone chooses to talk to them about it and let them know it's offensive is up to the person in question. Whether it should be worn at all (it would be in very bad taste) is in question, and the subject of discussion here. The morality of whether someone should wear something that might be a trigger for a great many people (isn't that what we are discussing?). The right of a person to wear what they please should not be a question, because everyone has the right to wear what they will as long as they are not breaking the law. Everyone else has the right to speak vocally AGAINST the person wearing what they want to wear (free speech is a wonderful thing). What I'm worried about is that when the person wearing and the person speaking come into contact with each other, if it's not handled correctly, it could erupt in a situation that's not desirable for anyone involved.

(For instance, this discussion has already caused at least one person to lose friends and break from the fandom entirely. NOT a good outcome.)

edit: accidentally left out a word.

Except that isn't what you've been discussing at all this entire discussion. . You've just been saying that we choose to be offended and that we shouldn't offend people who are offending us.

Everything Ellen said about privilege and entitlement was just +1000. I really don't understand why people think it's okay to say "it's just clothing!" when it's so, so much more than that. Even if you are privileged, not everyone in a privileged group has to be a PDD.

You wanna cause people pain, real emotional pain just because you have the 'right' to wear a Nazi uniform? Well, that says a lot about you as a person.

[RemSaverem]

I said people have the RIGHT to cosplay whatever they want. Because they do. Whether or not they SHOULD is a different story altogether. Just as you have the right to walk up to a cosplayer wearing an SS uniform and tell them to their face that they 'can't/arent allowed to' wear the cosplay, it's pretty clear that you probably SHOULDN'T.

I never said you shouldn't tell them its offensive to you, but the way the tone of certain posts about the issue have come out on the forums so far, it's been very confrontational, which is something I definitely think should NOT be taken into a real life discussion with a cosplayer who might be wearing such a uniform.

Whether someone cosplays an SS!Uniform (from whatever country), is up to them. Whether someone chooses to talk to them about it and let them know it's offensive is up to the person in question. Whether it should be worn at all (it would be in very bad taste) is in question, and the subject of discussion here. The morality of whether someone should wear something that might be a trigger for a great many people (isn't that what we are discussing?). The right of a person to wear what they please should not be a question, because everyone has the right to wear what they will as long as they are not breaking the law. Everyone else has the right to speak vocally AGAINST the person wearing what they want to wear (free speech is a wonderful thing). What I'm worried about is that when the person wearing and the person speaking come into contact with each other, if it's not handled correctly, it could erupt in a situation that's not desirable for anyone involved.

(For instance, this discussion has already caused at least one person to lose friends and break from the fandom entirely. NOT a good outcome.)

edit: accidentally left out a word.

Except that isn't what you've been discussing at all this entire discussion. . You've just been saying that we choose to be offended and that we shouldn't offend people who are offending us.

Everything Ellen said about privilege and entitlement was just +1000. I really don't understand why people think it's okay to say "it's just clothing!" when it's so, so much more than that. Even if you are privileged, not everyone in a privileged group has to be a PDD.

You wanna cause people pain, real emotional pain just because you have the 'right' to wear a Nazi uniform? Well, that says a lot about you as a person.

Thank you, MiriaRose, for the validation.
I 100% agree with your affirmations, as well.

[hikaru_maxwell]

I remember at one point I told Ellen that I had "said what I felt needed to be said, and wasn't planning to post here again". Apparently now that needs to change. Remember what I and the moderators/admins have said about "being civil" and "avoiding slinging out personal attacks"?  

All I have to say on the subject is PLEASE try to stay civil when posting. As for the way you take my previous posts, that's up to you (all of you, in general), but I know some of you (edited so I'm not naming names) seem to be determined to read the worst into anything I (or anyone on the opposite side of this debate from you) have to say, so I will refrain from trying to convince you further. What I have already said still stands. Think of me as you will.

[Bresslol]

LAST WARNING. Stop speculating about other people's motives.

[MiriaRose]

I remember at one point I told Ellen that I had "said what I felt needed to be said, and wasn't planning to post here again". Apparently now that needs to change. Remember what I and the moderators/admins have said about "being civil" and "avoiding slinging out personal attacks"?

Except the "you" at the end of the post wasn't referring to you in particular- I figured that that was obvious; I suppose not. At that point I'd moved on. Aside from that, I was being civil and avoiding personal attacks. I simply didn't want to go back a few pages to fish out Ellen's post on privilege and entitlement. Also, I'd been gone all weekend and hadn't gotten to that post yet.

All I have to say on the subject is PLEASE try to stay civil when posting. As for the way you take my previous posts, that's up to you (all of you, in general), but I know some of you (edited so I'm not naming names) seem to be determined to read the worst into anything I (or anyone on the opposite side of this debate from you) have to say, so I will refrain from trying to convince you further. What I have already said still stands. Think of me as you will.

Dunno about you, but I've been remaining civil this entire time. I've avoided anything that'd have me lose speaker points in a debate. As for Titus' decision to leave the fandom, that's really just her- She'd decided to leave the thread three times before if I recall correctly.

I'm not sure why you think I'm trying to read the worst into anything. If you want to say something, say it- Just be aware that how you say it matters a lot and can change your meaning entirely, and that I hold you responsible for how you say it.

And those 'you's are not a second-person singular but a second-person plural, btw, before I am warned for personal attacks. English really does need a second-person plural that is not regional. I feel silly whenever I say "y'all", as I am not a Texan.

[Washougal_Otaku]

...does anybody else think that this subject needs to be dropped altogether?  I think this one needs to end.  All that we're doing is making each other mad, and it's starting to reach a point of ridiculous repetition.  Can we please cease the insanity?

[MiriaRose]

...does anybody else think that this subject needs to be dropped altogether?  I think this one needs to end.  All that we're doing is making each other mad, and it's starting to reach a point of ridiculous repetition.  Can we please cease the insanity?

Except people still don't understand. Your post is just proof that it still needs to be talked about.

[RozenMaiden_Girl]

...does anybody else think that this subject needs to be dropped altogether?  I think this one needs to end.  All that we're doing is making each other mad, and it's starting to reach a point of ridiculous repetition.  Can we please cease the insanity?

Except people still don't understand. Your post is just proof that it still needs to be talked about.

As much as this is true, the sad thing is.... People will ALL WAYS cosplay nazis, anime/video game related or not. You can tell people over and over and over again. But they will not listen. so will, but not all. So as much as I think trying to tell people this isnt a good idea... In the end its fruitless guys. I am not gonna side with any one here. But I hate seeing you all waste your energy on something that will not be changed 100%

Not saying it CAN'T be changed a bit, because it can. But there will all ways be the one person who still does it.

[AllyKat]

This topic is in danger of being locked. Neither of the two parties have made any progress and since it is a moral/ethical debate there is unlikely to be any ground made in convincing one or the other of your opinion. Beliefs and proofs have been stated, its up to each person to decide how they will respond to it and what they will take from it.

I recommend we all agree that some people will never agree with what any of us say and you cannot change that in a forum post. Either let the thread rest naturally or continue to degrade into mud slinging and personal attacks and keep getting mod involvement.

Or find a third option I can't see. But right now I haven't seen much new argumentation or any philosophical insight on either side in awhile, and no one gets anywhere yelling their face blue at people who wont agree/change their minds.

[RemSaverem]

I pretty much feel like I've said all I need to in this thread. Except that in relation to the post about potentially locking, I don't think it's as simple as only being two sides. I see multiple vantage points:
(1) Costume should be encouraged due to free speech.
(2) Costume should be permitted, due to free speech, but discouraged.
(3) Costume should be discouraged, but only by other fans.
(4) Costume should be discouraged, but not formally banned, by the con itself.
(5) Costume should be outright banned, as inflammatory and traumatizing, by the con itself.
(6) Costume should  be outright banned, by the con itself, not only for the safety of those traumatized by viewing it, but also for the safety of those who would dare to wear it on public streets, run the risk of being mistaken for actual, bona fide, present day neo-Nazis and thereby likely be subjected to violence by anti-racists.
(7) Costume is beside the point; arrogance, entitlement, selfishness, as to how one's choices affect others, is the real issue.

I don't see there being only two camps nor only two possible outcomes, so that is my clarifying response to Ally's post.

I also would not object if the thread were locked, though I am not personally calling for such.

[GregAtlas]

While I would love to defend my own post and clear up certain meanings, it is clear to me that it would make no difference in this case where they just want [deleted by moderator]  over a costume that someone has already decided not to wear. Some of these posts have already caused my own PTSD from my past to flare up very badly (even before my post) and my heart cannot take this hate anymore so I will be trying to ignore the thread from now on and it took a lot of courage to even post this.

I pray the [deleted by moderator] will stop despite the excuses people are coming up with to justify it. Ultimately that was the whole goal of my post. I love you all despite all that has been said. I am also very grateful that this had had limited spill over to the other threads from what I can tell and hope it can be contained here.

>.< This whole situation was like watching Death Note all over again... I hate being a Libra sometimes...

Edit before posting: AllyKat, I had this message typed up before you posted Please delete this post if I crossed that line. My heart is too saddened right now to be able to tell whether I have or not. I personally would not mind one bit if the thread were to be locked, but there is the chance that some of these issues might be unresolved and come back later.

Enough with the hyperbole, insinuations, and accusations. Period. ~randompvg
(From anyone.)

[RemSaverem]

The deliberate choice of diction such as accusing people who want to a safe space free from intimidation, of being the ones who [deleted by moderator], is not only so far from true, but in such bad taste, and so manipulative, that I'm genuinely unable see the rest of the post as genuine.

If it is genuine, then the regrettable fact that anyone ever wanted to dress this way ended up also inadvertently negatively impacting you.

I've seen all of 5 minutes of Hetalia, btw. It seemed like pure crack to me. When I first heard the concept of anthropomorphizing countries as people, I was intrigued. When I read the fanfic that was given a couple awards last year, an adorable parody with a male/male pairing of America and Stephen Colbert, the concept of the show became endeared to me. I chose to never watch a full ep because I wasn't sure I personally was in a space of wanting to potentially be lead to view as funny, the circumstances around WWII, nor have the politics underlying it, potentially reduced to, e.g., being portrayed as juvenile games or rivalries. These were possibilities I speculated about, and I really just didn't have the time to look into whether or not there were any cause for concern within the show itself. If  there is a subculture that embraces the show, that feels that the show itself would make characters that are sympathetic, sexy, or otherwise desirable to cosplay, that, oh, incidentally are Nazis, then I really should watch some of the show to be able to talk about it in our Religion in Anime & Manga panel next year.

Other than that, and than mutual support amongst MiriaRose & Malaria & Jaqua & me in the thread (and personally some related chat with Max in PM), I don't know what other good will have come from this thread. But I will tell you this much. If even one human being has been dissuaded from cosplaying a Nazi -- whether by the strength of any of the logical points enunciated here, or for logical concern that to do so might result in ostracism in the con community or violence outside it-- then the thread was worth it, not only for helping that one person to grow, but also for protecting anyone that person could accidentally (G-d forbid, deliberately) have retraumatized.

Hoping not to have to post again,
a very tired Rem.

_{(Removing content quoted from another post ~randompvg)}

[@random]

Topic locked for the night. The mods will decide in the morning whether it gets re-opened.

[Bresslol]

The mod team feels this topic needs to stay locked.