Kumoricon 2012 AMV Contest - New Rules & Categories discussion!

[Prinz Eugen]

Hello! It's time again to look at the last year's contest categories, and see what we want to keep for next year and see what new or experimental category or categories we might throw out to the field!

LAST YEAR'S categories & rules are visible at:
http://users.opusnet.com/guy1656/k2011-amv.htm

and they are copied here:

SIX AMV CATEGORIES:

1.  INTENSITY Similar to an 'Action' category. A strong and solid audio and visual story engaging the audience with impact, high suspense, and gripping scenes throughout.

2. INSTRUMENTAL This category is an open format, using any anime and any style of AMV, with the only criterion being that the music contain no discernible lyrics, and no scat or nonsense syllables either. Instrumental music may use the human voice as a wordless instrument. Here are two examples:
Music Sample 1
Music Sample 2

3. RETRO Each submission must satisfy BOTH of these conditions below:
 a. All music and sources must be at least five (5) years old, and
 b. The sum, in years, of the latest (youngest) video source and audio source must equal AT LEAST 30.

4. RANDOM AMUSEMENT This is a broader category than Comedy / Parody; it also includes bizarre or off-beat works that con-fuse as well as a-muse.

5. TRAILERS Includes fake commercials, TV spots, and movie and game trailers. May use actual advertising audio or a fictitious creation in the style of a commercial, trailer, or fake episode opening credits. Serious and intriguing dual-openers will also show in this category. Comedy trailers may get redirected to RANDOM AMUSEMENT.

6. EFFECTS This is where the high-speed music and flashy stuff meet. Take your Bonine® and buckle in!

So there you go.

What shall we try this year?
Do we want to add a 7th category? (Previous contests have had 7 categories)
Do we want to retire a category and drop in something new?

[Sui Fong]

Well since no one else has replied, I will. I've been thinking about this since it was first posted, and I can't think of anything that should be added.... I really like the retro category and hope we keep it! I've been working on an amv that will fit into that category since k-con 2011. I know that with all my friends random amusement is the most popular (they pretty much go to the amv contest showing just to watch that). Other than that I have no ideas. Let you know if I come up with any.

[Prinz Eugen]

Other than that I have no ideas. Let you know if I come up with any.

OK, I will let myself know if you think of anything. ^.^


I do like to shuffle things around from year to year, but the editors seemed to have fun with everything we asked of them this time around.
The current definition of 'Retro' moves forward in time automatically, (Good idea, Raven!) so we don't need to discuss cutoff years all over again.
The editors have fun with that one and the audience seems to like them too, so I'd like to call that a keeper for one more year.
One category thought up by one of the judges last year or the year before is:

"This is so NOT what that anime is about!"

Needs a little shorter category name, but the jist of it is that the story seen in the AMV is unrelated or opposite to the story told in the actual anime series.
You can:

- Make a romantic couple or relationship that does not exist in the show
- Depict secondary characters as primary driving elements of a new story
- Make a cheerful show come to a tragic or somber ending, or vice-versa
- Rearrange story elements out of their original timeline to create a new plot
- Apply digital effects / composites to create new settings, lighting, mood, and feel*
- Color-swap hair, skin, eyes, clothing and more to depict new and different-looking
  characters, objects, and settings**
- Composite characters onto a new setting from another show
- Composite a character from a different show with a similar design style and make
   a new story or relationship

* Take the 'two kids talking on the school roof' scene and bend over most of the buildings in city backdrop to make it a post-apocalyptic setting?
** This can also include adjusting the color of tattoos, a facial mole, other facial markings, earrings, or other jewelry or fashion accessories to match the character's natural skin color so as to erase these things and thereby change the emotional presentation of a character.

All this and MORE!

Composite work MUST be CONVINCING and of a quality that you will REALLY FOOL the audience into thinking that the source materials are naturally SUPPOSED to be the way YOU depicted them. The objective here is that if people see your AMV *first* without having seen the series and then they watch the actual series afterwards, they get disoriented and confused. ("Wait, I thought he had this seriously cool girlfriend." "Why is everyone wearing the wrong colors?" "What - that's her MOM?!?" "Why is this guy so LAME?" Etc.)

I am thinking that we might try this as either a new, additional category or run this instead of 'Effects' because several of the above points require skillzz in digital effects. Then the standard flash-bang whizz-boom effects AMVs might compete in 'Intensity.'

Your comments?

[murder_of_raven]

I love the idea and might even be tempted to try it out myself (I've seen some really good stuff with this premise around) but I worry about this category having a huge bias to whatever the judges are familiar with. If an effect or premise is really really convincing, and none of the judges are familiar with it, it'd probably get looked over. Maybe a way around this would be to allow people who submit to the category also submit a summary of what they changed?

[Prinz Eugen]

If an effect or premise is really really convincing, and none of the judges are familiar with it,

WHAT, YOU DARE IMPLY THAT MY JUDGES' PANELS IS LESS THAN FULLY OMNISCIENT ABOUT ALL THINGS ANIME!?! <joke>

Really though, once you get 10 otaku who are interested in AMVs in a single room, you will get probably 90% of the trivia questions covered...

Maybe a way around this would be to allow people who submit to the category also submit a summary of what they changed?

There is nothing in the rules preventing contestants from submitting auxilliary information, such as screenshots. I usually pass that info along to the judges or write special notes onto the index card for the entry.

I do request that submitters tell me the name(s) of the anime used, and for this category that will help me have a look. With tablets becoming more common, one or two judges may be able to google up the shows, or a wiki about the shows during their screening event and see what's different, then share these finding with the other judges for discussion.

But on the other hand - the AMV must stand on its own as an interesting or intense story.
As long as it does so, then 'What's that anime?' is a secondary question.

A good example of this was the 'Larmes' AMV this past year.
Most people had not seen Arashi no Yoru ni, but you didn't have to have seen the OVA to get engaged in the story and the emotion of this AMV. Meanwhile this other AMV tells a somber and poigniant story which has nothing to do with what Kodomo no Jikan is about.

Matter of fact, that AMV is one of the inspirations for the category. To see that AMV and then watch KnJ knowing nothing about KnJ would be a fate worse than rickrolling.

But the AMV is a good solid story as a stand-alone project.
This would mean that AMVs that get up on the screen in this category would have to be ENTERTAINING even to those who don't 'get' what has been altered or omitted.

Summary: It would be okay to include extra info, and I do tend to pass that along, BUT it's kinda like having to go back and explain a joke - the material should stand on its own to those not in the know, and tell a good story on its first pass.

Good point though.

[murder_of_raven]

Meanwhile this other AMV tells a somber and poigniant story which has nothing to do with what Kodomo no Jikan is about.

Matter of fact, that AMV is one of the inspirations for the category. To see that AMV and then watch KnJ knowing nothing about KnJ would be a fate worse than rickrolling.

This is actually a perfect example of what I was saying. A cursory glance on wikipedia would suggest that this AMV has nothing to do with the plot of KnJ; yet it is actually a nearly scene-for-scene recap of an arc (the climax, for that matter). While I agree that any AMV needs to be able to stand on its own merits; I'm concerned that sort of mistake could lead to some very careful reconstruction/rotoscoping work being overshadowed by a misconception garnered from wikipedia or the like.

Another example: I remember at the creator dinner last year a number of judges being extremely impressed with some footage in an AMV they assumed was CGI work done by the creator; while it was in fact Petit Eva. If that mistake had been made in this category, there's a good chance it would've given that AMV an enormous advantage over someone who say, painstakingly rotoscoped a character from a similar looking series in.

[@random]

This sounds like a fun category... maybe it could be Not Exactly Canon? (Although that might itself be misleading, making people think it's about sad girls in snow. )

This is actually a perfect example of what I was saying. A cursory glance on wikipedia would suggest that this AMV has nothing to do with the plot of KnJ; yet it is actually a nearly scene-for-scene recap of an arc (the climax, for that matter). While I agree that any AMV needs to be able to stand on its own merits; I'm concerned that sort of mistake could lead to some very careful reconstruction/rotoscoping work being overshadowed by a misconception garnered from wikipedia or the like.

What, Wikipedia wrong? Never!

_{(I saw a discussion some years back wherein one editor tried to correct a mistake in Wikipedia using ANN as a source. He/she was immediately told by another editor that ANN is unreliable, and the correction was reverted. If you're familiar with the relative error rates, you might find this sadly amusing.)}

More seriously, I can hazard a guess that you're both right on the subject. What the AMV shows is indeed straight canon, and it makes a good case for asking editors to explain what they changed. But anyone who's been exposed only to this AMV before watching KnJ would be in for a very rude awakening.

[murder_of_raven]

Haha, in regards to the rude awakening, yes, certainly.

And woah sorry guys, I have no idea what I did with the quotes.

[Prinz Eugen]

maybe it could be Not Exactly Canon? (Although that might itself be misleading, making people think it's about sad girls in snow. )

"NOT EXACTLY CANNON" but O/T yet interesting:



Built in 1457, this bad ol' girl was in service till 1558 when the barrel failed in one place.
Cannons in use today are mostly 19th century pieces and fire iron balls because lead is too dense - if you ever acquire or inherit a cannon do NOT fire lead balls of the diameter of the bore - the extra mass will overstress the barrel.  Older medieval pieces such as Mons Meg above cannot even fire iron - they fired carved balls of STONE, and the word for these projectiles was not 'cannonball' but rather 'gunstone.'

Max range on this piece was about 2 miles and the projectile was a 20" sphere of GRANITE weighing about 385 pounds.

[Sui Fong]

Bump!
Also had a quick question about rules... would this scene be acceptable? (10:20; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4Ztnt5ej20) I didn't know if it would be PG enough...

[Prinz Eugen]

Bump!
Also had a quick question about rules... would this scene be acceptable? (10:20; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4Ztnt5ej20) I didn't know if it would be PG enough...

Two reasons I can't answer that...

1) The judges on the panel make the decision, not me, and
2) I can't see what you're talking about because YouTube does not run on the browsers I have on any of my computers.
They made a change to something about a year ago that makes Flash unable to play through my current firewall configurations, so I figure that they or one of their partners (maybe adobe.com) is trying to pull more information than they ought to.

I haven't missed YouTube.

But anyways, why not try to describe what kind of content you have concerns about, and people here can chime in with their opinions and I can try to recall how previous judges have reacted when something similar has cropped up...

[Sui Fong]

my only concern with it (its from the first episode of spice and wolf, if anyone is familiar with that anime) is that she has no clothes on... it's not explicit, the anime itself is rated tv 14. it's an outline of her body curves and all, but no specifics. if anything i suppose it walks a fine line.

[Prinz Eugen]

Nekkid Horo - got it.

Just my opinion: There are a ton of classical era-statues and Renaissence paintings with nekkid people, but how do you know then its Art and not pr0n? Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart famously quipped "I'll know it when I see it." (1964)

Typically the AMV judges will consider what the message of the scene is to the audience. It depends what the lyrics of the song are telling us at that moment. Nudity, partial or side views, (because we are running PG or PG-13) can convey many different concepts and emotions including even some positive things like purity, (see episode 1 of the new Last Exile - Fam, the Silver Wing) or a state of being in harmony with nature (no artificial clothing required) or at very least it's a clue that the temperature is probably not much below 62F, not raining, and wind is probably calm. (But Horo is not human so your mileage may vary... she may be able to 'borrow' the same thermal resistance to typical outdoor conditions that an animal's coat of fur affords.)

Family or group nudity in a Japanese onsen is a social setting that is not usually pornographic because it's not usually arousing to the people (Though rather overused for slapstick comedy when a schmuck-boy ends up in the wrong side or vice versa, even though it's somehow always HIS fault. And he bleeds from his nose.) Characters in an onsen scene don't usually start making out - and if they did THAT's when you can run into BIG problems. (But generally you will only find scenes like that in hentai or really hard-core stuff.) An onsen scene may create tension when one or more characters may be sorely tempted, but must maintain their composure. The tension can be high if at least one person is emotionally attracted to another - and he or she fears that the emotion is unrequited.

Another consideration is DURATION of the image - in the rules you get ONE scene of 1/5th of a second - that's 6 frames at 30fps, and you get that INSTEAD of a swear-word, so now your lyrics have to be "radio clean."

One bunch of judges bounced an AMV that had a little girl's shirt being pulled off against her will by a bunch of larger adults on a train. That was -out- (iirc the anime was Paranoia Agent.) They have also been sensitive to panty shots; you can sometimes get these passed if there is plausible deniability - as in those are CHEER BRIEFS, not UNDERWEAR. Warning: Once you get too detailed with lumpy stuff in that region, you are OUT.

All in all, it depends on YOUR message and setting. Every scene in every anime is a puzzle piece. The judges and the audience want to see the NEW picture YOU get to create when you make an AMV that tells the story YOU get to make up.

But seriously - can you tell your story without focusing on a panty shot? Do you really need to look up a skirt and bring the audience there with you? Do you really need a nude or partially nude body to complete the message? That's your decision as an editor.

[Sui Fong]

thanks, it's been helpful. the scene would be 1.11 seconds long, and it's a spoof on The Catcher in the Rye. I will try and find another time when they are both in the field together, it's just that particular scene is so readily available.
thanks for the info!

[Prinz Eugen]

thanks, it's been helpful. the scene would be 1.11 seconds long, and it's a spoof on The Catcher in the Rye.

Sounds fun!

Can you digitally sample one of the background trees and, umm, strategically place the shrubbery as an overlay in front of a certain something?

Or, grab one of the assist-droids ("assist-a-roid?") from Asobi ni Iku You?
There is a sauna scene in that show where those cute critters JUST HAPPEN to bounce IN THE WAY of everything naughty, carrying little signboards that read "Excuse me," "Gomen Nasai" ('sorry!') or "Please don't look at this!" ('mi-chya da-me!') and you might have a bit of crossover fun if one of those guys JUST HAPPENED to be IN THE WAY.

[Sui Fong]

thanks, it's been helpful. the scene would be 1.11 seconds long, and it's a spoof on The Catcher in the Rye.

Sounds fun!

Can you digitally sample one of the background trees and, umm, strategically place the shrubbery as an overlay in front of a certain something?

Or, grab one of the assist-droids ("assist-a-roid?") from Asobi ni Iku You?
There is a sauna scene in that show where those cute critters JUST HAPPEN to bounce IN THE WAY of everything naughty, carrying little signboards that read "Excuse me," "Gomen Nasai" ('sorry!') or "Please don't look at this!" ('mi-chya da-me!') and you might have a bit of crossover fun if one of those guys JUST HAPPENED to be IN THE WAY.

haha! i wish i could! i haven't figured out how to do any of that kind of stuff on my editing program... could be b/c i'm using the most basic program money can buy cause i'm cheap like that... or rather frugal? anyway, love that idea, made me laugh. i like the donkey's in gunxsword more though, now they were funny!

[Prinz Eugen]

OK - the contest is GO, on this page:

http://www.kumoricon.org/forums/index.php?topic=16493.0

Further discussions or questions on categories & entries should move to that page.
I will now ask the moderators to lock this thread.

THANK YOU EVERYONE!!