Skimpy outfits, propriety, and morals

[XxBelovedxSoubixX]

I find it annoying that men or anyone thinks it's okay to follow a girl around if she's wearing reveling clothing. It's not. Underage or not. You don't get decide what amount of clothing I wear and when it's little enough to stalk me. It's not okay to follow anyone around or perv on them no matter what. That kind of thinking is what gets girls hurt. And what makes this country accuse the victim instead of the attacker.

[Washougal_Otaku]

I find it annoying that men or anyone thinks it's okay to follow a girl around if she's wearing reveling clothing. It's not. Underage or not. You don't get decide what amount of clothing I wear and when it's little enough to stalk me. It's not okay to follow anyone around or perv on them no matter what. That kind of thinking is what gets girls hurt. And what makes this country accuse the victim instead of the attacker.

This is true, too.  As a man, this kind of crap disgusts me.  It also makes me nervous when I see a female cosplaying a character that I like but wears little clothing: Mai Shiranui, perfect example.  There's that part of my mind that tells me, "She could be thinking that I'm one of these sickos...," and sometimes don't even bother asking.

[XxBelovedxSoubixX]

I find it annoying that men or anyone thinks it's okay to follow a girl around if she's wearing reveling clothing. It's not. Underage or not. You don't get decide what amount of clothing I wear and when it's little enough to stalk me. It's not okay to follow anyone around or perv on them no matter what. That kind of thinking is what gets girls hurt. And what makes this country accuse the victim instead of the attacker.

This is true, too.  As a man, this kind of crap disgusts me.  It also makes me nervous when I see a female cosplaying a character that I like but wears little clothing: Mai Shiranui, perfect example.  There's that part of my mind that tells me, "She could be thinking that I'm one of these sickos...," and sometimes don't even bother asking.

I think going up to them and talking to them and treating them like another person is good. If you want to talk to someone going to them is a lot different then watching and following from afar. lol. Also I think its a lot easier to make clear that your not a sicko if your talking to them. :3

I didn't mean people shouldn't talk to girls wearing reveling clothing. They want to be a part of the con fun as much as everyone else.

Its just the kind of thinking that it's okay to stalk and perv on girls wearing reveling clothing, and that the girls should know better then to wear what they please, that pisses me off. It only hurts the women in our country by making excuses for the attacker. It's just on of my buttons that makes me fly off the handle on the inside.

[Washougal_Otaku]

I find it annoying that men or anyone thinks it's okay to follow a girl around if she's wearing reveling clothing. It's not. Underage or not. You don't get decide what amount of clothing I wear and when it's little enough to stalk me. It's not okay to follow anyone around or perv on them no matter what. That kind of thinking is what gets girls hurt. And what makes this country accuse the victim instead of the attacker.

This is true, too.  As a man, this kind of crap disgusts me.  It also makes me nervous when I see a female cosplaying a character that I like but wears little clothing: Mai Shiranui, perfect example.  There's that part of my mind that tells me, "She could be thinking that I'm one of these sickos...," and sometimes don't even bother asking.

I think going up to them and talking to them and treating them like another person is good. If you want to talk to someone going to them is a lot different then watching and following from afar. lol. Also I think its a lot easier to make clear that your not a sicko if your talking to them. :3

I didn't mean people shouldn't talk to girls wearing reveling clothing. They want to be a part of the con fun as much as everyone else.

Its just the kind of thinking that it's okay to stalk and perv on girls wearing reveling clothing, and that the girls should know better then to wear what they please, that pisses me off. It only hurts the women in our country by making excuses for the attacker. It's just on of my buttons that makes me fly off the handle on the inside.

True, but there are the girls out there that will find a guy simply talking to them to be a vile human being.  Also, I personally see the point of "girls should know better" to have some validity, especially for some of the more revealing stuff.  Just because Yoko from Gurren Lagaan is "supposedly" 14, I don't think that 14-year-olds should be wearing too-small bikini tops, nor should any that do be surprised if guys occationally look at them (doubly so if they're built somewhat like her, too).

Oh!  That reminds me of a completely different annoying thing about cons!

This is specifically with Sakuracon.  Since the tradition for that con is to have it during Easter weekend, this usually means that it takes place during the Jewish festival of Pesach (Passover).  Part of the traditions of Pesach is to avoid eating foods with leavening in them (and to throw them out of the home).  Due to this, whenever I go to Sakuracon, I can't eat ramen, Pocky, or any other grain-based food, not even stuff at Subway or Taco Del Mar!

[JeffT]

Also, I personally see the point of "girls should know better" to have some validity, especially for some of the more revealing stuff.  Just because Yoko from Gurren Lagaan is "supposedly" 14, I don't think that 14-year-olds should be wearing too-small bikini tops, nor should any that do be surprised if guys occationally look at them (doubly so if they're built somewhat like her, too).

The problem is that some people equivocate on this point to then cast moral blame on the victim for the aggressor's actions. It may well be advisable to know that wearing more revealing clothing will attract unwanted attention and act on that knowledge, but as an individual you have the right to decide to do that without being harassed (to say nothing of worse things). It doesn't change the rules of courtesy, either.

[Washougal_Otaku]

Not to contradict what's being said, but there are circumstances in which those are true.  Some assailants are what they are because of a mental disorder; I know this is the case because my mother works with people like that; they can't help it.  Then there are cases where a female will go to a frat party, by herself, and get wasted; you really think girls like that aren't at least partially responsible?  Even so, some sexual criminals look for women in overalls (something about it being easy to cut the straps or something like that; it was about 14 years ago that I read this).  There was a Christian TV show that I used to watch in which the main character once said something like, "A woman could be sealed in a block of cement and men will find something attractive about her."

The point that I've been trying to make all this time is that girls need to understand that not all of us guys are evil horny bastards so don't bite off my head if I glance at you real quick, and that I (a nearly-30-year-old man) am bothered by the amount of flesh that teenage girls (LEGALLY DEFINED AS CHILDREN!!!) show off.  I really don't think that there's anything wrong with that observation about observations.

[JeffT]

Some assailants are what they are because of a mental disorder; I know this is the case because my mother works with people like that; they can't help it.

If somehow, an aggressor does not have moral blame, then that means nobody does. It's the same as if somebody was the victim of an attack by, say, a lion. The victim may have been able to take more more precautions, but the victim is not morally responsible for what would have been a crime if a volitional, sane person would have done it.

Then there are cases where a female will go to a frat party, by herself, and get wasted; you really think girls like that aren't at least partially responsible?

Yes. They are not morally responsible for a sexual assault that was done to themselves. They may be foolish, or irresponsible, but that's a separate issue. The moral blame is 100% that of the attacker and 0% that of the victim.

The point that I've been trying to make all this time is that girls need to understand that not all of us guys are evil horny bastards so don't bite off my head if I glance at you real quick,

I don't object to that, in isolation. I just want to make crystal clear the difference between saying "This is good advice" and saying "You, as the victim, share the moral responsibility of the aggressor". The "blame the victim" view gets a foothold because some people try to muddy this difference.

and that I (a nearly-30-year-old man) am bothered by the amount of flesh that teenage girls (LEGALLY DEFINED AS CHILDREN!!!) show off.  I really don't think that there's anything wrong with that observation about observations.

Fine, but sometimes people bring this into the discussion to give cover to the "blame the victim" viewpoint. Just read the online comment section of any news story about somebody who has been the victim of not just rape or sexual assault, but a wide range of misfortunes, if you have any doubt that the "blame the victim" view exists in full force among many people. They will make comments such as "Anybody who doesn't <take precaution ABC> deserves <misfortune XYZ>", or "What was the person doing <engaging in activity ABC> at <time of day> and <place>". The blame is with full vigor and unmistakable, the glee at the person's misfortune not even attempting to be hidden.

[Washougal_Otaku]

For the second part, you're completely wrong, and for this reason: if the "attacker" is under the impression that she wants it, then he isn't immoral or wrong.

As for everything else, I'm getting sick if y'all attacking me, especially you, Jeff. All that I was saying was something that bothers me about cons. I'm right on my stance, and I'm right to have one. That's what this thread is for. It's not to gang up on someone by twisting their words around to mean something completely different. If that's what this thread is going to be like, then it should be locked.

[JeffT]

As for everything else, I'm getting sick if y'all attacking me, especially you, Jeff.

I didn't attack you. Please back up your accusation by quoting the exact text I attacked you with. (I am speaking only as a forum participant in this request, not as moderator or staff.) I brought up some responses to things you said, and in certain cases, also disagreed with your point of view. I never made it a personal issue.

All that I was saying was something that bothers me about cons. I'm right on my stance, and I'm right to have one. That's what this thread is for. It's not to gang up on someone by twisting their words around to mean something completely different. If that's what this thread is going to be like, then it should be locked.

Another participant raised a tangential issue, and you actively participated in the tangent as well. Another moderator can split the tangent if they would like (though I'm concluded on it--each of us has stated their opinions clearly, so I don't have anything more to say).

[@random]

I probably will split the tangent if it continues past another post or two, but I don't know if there's much more that can be said on the topic without it escalating past civil discourse. The code of conduct is pretty clear in this case: The best tack to take is to address the issue rather than the motives of the person, and I think both sides have had a good chance to do so.

That said, geez... I'm envious that you guys have time to debate. I thought it was tradition that everyone was supposed to wait until the last minute and then panic?

[nikkiolie]

As a woman I want to throw in my 2 cents here. This is the oregon state law on informed consent http://court.laws.com/informed-consent

Basically it says if I am unable to fully understand the situation, as would likely happen when I was drunk, then informed consent is not given and any action an attacker made do to me is illegal and wrong and I will press charges. So please, coming from a woman, just because I am irresponsible doesn't mean you have the wright to break the law.

if the "attacker" is under the impression that she wants it, then he isn't immoral or wrong.

And not attacking just pointing out another side to this. If I am under the impression that someone wants to die then am I in the right to kill them? That doesn't make much sense to me.

Though I will agree that if a girl is wearing skimpy outfits she shouldn't get pissed by a guy looking at her. I, in fact, like it. I have done a lot of work to lose some weight and look healthy. I hear cat calls and what not when guys saw my rikku last year and I didn't get upset. Nor should any other girl. I think the issue of concern is when they become more than just cat calls and turn into following and harassing and what not. If I feel uncomfortable I will leave. I wont snap at the person I will just remove myself from the situation.

And this is just me wondering, but Yoko is actually has more parts covering her than that same girl would have if she was only wearing a bikini top and bottom. So Washougal are you also uncomfortable if you were to see the same 14 year old girl at the beach in only a bikini? Again this is in no way an attack. I'm just giving my perspective and inquiries

[XxBelovedxSoubixX]

I find it annoying that men or anyone thinks it's okay to follow a girl around if she's wearing reveling clothing. It's not. Underage or not. You don't get decide what amount of clothing I wear and when it's little enough to stalk me. It's not okay to follow anyone around or perv on them no matter what. That kind of thinking is what gets girls hurt. And what makes this country accuse the victim instead of the attacker.

This is true, too.  As a man, this kind of crap disgusts me.  It also makes me nervous when I see a female cosplaying a character that I like but wears little clothing: Mai Shiranui, perfect example.  There's that part of my mind that tells me, "She could be thinking that I'm one of these sickos...," and sometimes don't even bother asking.

I think going up to them and talking to them and treating them like another person is good. If you want to talk to someone going to them is a lot different then watching and following from afar. lol. Also I think its a lot easier to make clear that your not a sicko if your talking to them. :3

I didn't mean people shouldn't talk to girls wearing reveling clothing. They want to be a part of the con fun as much as everyone else.

Its just the kind of thinking that it's okay to stalk and perv on girls wearing reveling clothing, and that the girls should know better then to wear what they please, that pisses me off. It only hurts the women in our country by making excuses for the attacker. It's just on of my buttons that makes me fly off the handle on the inside.

True, but there are the girls out there that will find a guy simply talking to them to be a vile human being.  Also, I personally see the point of "girls should know better" to have some validity, especially for some of the more revealing stuff.  Just because Yoko from Gurren Lagaan is "supposedly" 14, I don't think that 14-year-olds should be wearing too-small bikini tops, nor should any that do be surprised if guys occationally look at them (doubly so if they're built somewhat like her, too).

Oh!  That reminds me of a completely different annoying thing about cons!

This is specifically with Sakuracon.  Since the tradition for that con is to have it during Easter weekend, this usually means that it takes place during the Jewish festival of Pesach (Passover).  Part of the traditions of Pesach is to avoid eating foods with leavening in them (and to throw them out of the home).  Due to this, whenever I go to Sakuracon, I can't eat ramen, Pocky, or any other grain-based food, not even stuff at Subway or Taco Del Mar!

I'm not saying it doesn't have value. It's just sad that we have too you know? It hot in the summer and I would like to wear tank tops and shorts all summer but I have to worry because I'm not close to flat so It 'draws attention' (even though I'm completely covered) from my normal sweaters so  I have to worry. Guys can walk around without a shirt completely off and no one bats an eyelash, but a girl wears a tank top and you get to much unwanted attention. It's sad that the women's body has been so overly sexualized that a tank top or a bikini top is dangerous to wear when its 100 degrees outside. No one has a problem with a 14 year old boy with no shirt on, but put some fat in the chest and hot damn you can't even wear a half shirt with out it being 'inappropriate'.

And just speaking out of what I'm seeing, if she's drunk then consent is legally not able to be given. Same for a man. Naive doesn't equal deserving. We all make mistakes in our lives and the person that takes advantage of those is 100% to be blamed because they know what they are doing is wrong. But that's the last I'll speak on the subject. This isn't the discussion this forum was meant for.

[@random]

I've moved this topic out of General Kumoricon so that discussion can continue - just remember to please keep it civil.

[Washougal_Otaku]

@Jeff - I'm just going to comment on the lion analogy you gave earlier.  If I were in downtown Portland and a lion that escaped from the zoo began mauling me, then your case would be valid.  How would I prepare for something that random?  If, however, I went to Kenya, on my own, without a car or a rifle, and began running around in circles with my arms flailing around in the air while screaming "I'm tasty and I know it!!!!", you can't deny that I'd be asking to get attacked by a lion, or an entire pride, for that matter.

@nikki - Well, seeing as how the con is in Washington this year, Oregon law is not applicable... this year.  To be honest, I'm not sure what Washington's stance on this is, and I don't really want to look it up (at least not now, but maybe later).  Even though I didn't say said woman would be drunk at that point (though it would be most likely), she was still sober and fully mentally aware before she began pounding away at the drinks.  Again, I'm not saying that she's completely to blame, but she's not exempt from blame, either; there is some fault on her side.

You're comparison to having sex and committing murder seems illogical in this case.  "Make me feel good" is a pleasurable thing, whereas "Kill me now" is not, plus it is always illegal (unless you're an Oregon doctor involved in an assisted suicide).

Yoko's top is a bikini, but you're correct about the bottoms.  However, they're still quite revealing and leave VERY little imagination.  As for your question, yes, it does; this is actually one of the many reasons I don't like going to beaches.  It wouldn't be so bad if it were more obvious that all of them were teenagers (or tweens, even), but there are many of them out there that look college-aged, even older in some cases.  Heck, I used to go to a synagogue where an 11-year-old looked like she was 17!  (I'm taking this chance to point out that I was 19 at the time).  I was thinking about asking her out until she told me her age and showed me her ID to prove it.  So, yes, if it were more obvious that all teens were teens, the problem wouldn't be anywhere near as bad.

@Beloved - "the person that takes advantage of those is 100% to be blamed because they know what they are doing is wrong."  Again, a little bit of blame ought to go to the victim because they set themselves up for it, as I indicated with my lion analogy.  To further this, sometimes the "attacker" has no idea that consent isn't "legally" given since the "victim" appears to be 100% coherent.  How much of the blame ought to go to this person then, huh?

[BigGuy]

Chairman of the Con weighing in because this thread is a bit ridiculous.

 Kumoricon has a strict anti-harassment policy, anyone who feel harassed report it to a staff member at once!

we want everyone to feel safe at con, regardless of what they are wearing.

[GenkiIchigo]

"Again, a little bit of blame ought to go to the victim because they set themselves up for it, as I indicated with my lion analogy.  To further this, sometimes the "attacker" has no idea that consent isn't "legally" given since the "victim" appears to be 100% coherent.  How much of the blame ought to go to this person then, huh?"

Alright. No. Stop.

I'm not even going to bother with the rest of this thread, other than to say that I've noticed that you've made multiple allusions to women 'asking for it', or 'appearing to want it', which is complete and utter you-know-what, thank you very much. In the case of rape, the victim is NEVER to blame, regardless of what he or she may be wearing, how much alcohol he or she may have consumed, or whether or not he or she is out alone or with friends. Never. Got it? Good. If in doubt, stay out of his or her pants, and keep it in yours. Seriously.

And yes, notice the male pronouns up there, because men can be raped as well... Which actually leads me directly to my next point. I've seen how you sometimes dress at con. Are you "asking for it"? By your very own definition, you certainly are.

Anyway, at the risk of going on and on, I'll cut this short, but let me just say how INCREDIBLY uncomfortable it makes me to see a Kumoricon staffer talk like this. You're someone who's going to be around people who are dressed in less than full clothing (albeit still adhering to convention dress code) ALL weekend (and possibly beyond, if you participate in side events), and it really bothers me to think that someone who's dressed like that might come to you with an issue such as the one that's being discussed. I'm not going to make assumptions about how you might handle something like that, but just know that it makes me pretty uneasy.

This thread is a wreck. I feel really bad for the OP.

Also, Beau snuck in a reply before I posted, but, ^that.

[@random]

Thread locked.

[JeffT]

This thread has been locked for a few days, but based on some concerns raised internally, I wanted to post a clarifying statement, this time wearing my staff voice. People who staff the convention use a forum account both for personal use and sometimes to post something in a voice that represents the convention. In the debate between myself and Washougal_Otaku in this thread, we were not representing the convention. Often, it's obvious in which voice a person is posting, but this is a situation where I wish this would have been clarified clearly sooner.

And again, still speaking (in this post) as an executive of the convention, Kumoricon will not assign fault to a victim for another's act based on their clothing, or lessen the blame due to an alleged aggressor based on the alleged victim's clothing, in a situation in which harassment, or other crime, occurs at Kumoricon.