Author Topic: Anime Piracy  (Read 4597 times)

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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Anime Piracy
« on: December 20, 2007, 02:23:25 pm »
I've been getting stuff from the Anime Network and I wanted to share these things with you guys.

http://www.activeanime.com/html/component/option,com_alphacontent/section,1/cat,17/task,view/id,1967/Itemid,46/

http://www.activeanime.com/html/component/option,com_alphacontent/section,1/cat,19/task,view/id,2171/Itemid,46/ (This one is my favorite)

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/industry-comments/arthur-smith-open-letter-on-fansubbing (This one answers questions made by people from the previous one. It's from the combined perspective of several companies around the world).

http://news.toonzone.net/article.php?ID=20275
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Offline superjaz

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Re: Anime Piracy
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2007, 10:28:52 pm »
thats awesome and very informative, thanks for posting!
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: Anime Piracy
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2007, 06:18:44 am »
The thing that gets me is that they want to target fansubber groups but that seems harder to do.   Suppose someone in say china or korea where largely there is little respect to intelectual property is doing the fansubbing.  I don't see how they can hope to be successful in stopping them before finishing their series.

And also, I've been renting anime from netflix legally, there is lots of anime that is licenced that I have still yet to see.  I pay a monthly fee for that, I can also stream some anime, but really the selection is limited.  I stop going for the fansubs when it gets licenced, this has led me to miss the endings of some series, but I deal with it.  However, when it takes the dubbers years to finish by the time they aquire a licences it begs the question if their buisness model is what the problem is that is causing them to go bankrupt.
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Offline MichaelEvans

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Re: Anime Piracy
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2007, 06:51:54 am »
It is completely the business model.  They deliver an over-priced product late, and expect to turn a profit?  Fansubs are fast, far more value (free actually, but realistically 25-100 cents per episode, for a sub, would probably be economically viable given digital only distribution...), and the production scales dynamically to demand.  There is no waste (not like DVDs that are over-priced to make, and over-priced to sell, and sit in warehouses...).

What modern distribution should be is a volume business, the same thing walmart does for school supplies, selling things just slightly at a profit, so they can get volume discount, is exactly the same way that the information of entertainment should be sold.  There you have fixed costs, bandwidth (Yes, it IS fixed cost if you buy it high enough up the food chain: a corp can.), computers, patent licenses (*often? MPEG4 part10 (x264, the stuff they use in .mp4 files) specifically), and admins/software guys to put together the back end.

Itemize everything, and the fans will tell you where they think too much money is being spent.
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Offline reppy

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Re: Anime Piracy
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2007, 11:46:39 pm »
Anime is really, really expensive. $30 a pop for 3-4 episodes? Get it down to $20 and throw 5 episodes on and now we're talking. (I don't understand why it's that much more expensive than an American title. You can buy a movie for $19.95 that has director's commentary, Spanish, French and English dialogue, closed captioning, etc. I'm sure that had to cost a lot of money!)

I'm not saying I condone anime piracy but lets be realistic: anime popularity has gone up a lot, but a lot of that is a young crowd most of whom do not even have jobs!

I'd love to buy more anime (I recently bought the Chobits DVD boxset online .. used .. for $30. The discs were in perfect condition. Why would I buy new??), but I can barely afford to pay rent and eat as it is! One of the biggest problems they should be going after is people SELLING bootleg anime. I had to go through a TON of illegal bootlegs on eBay and Half.com before I found legitimate sellers to buy from. (I ended up having to buy it from 3 separate sellers.. 1-3 from 1 person, 3-6 from another, and 7 from yet someone else. Ended up spending $10 of the $30 just on shipping!!)

Some of these people on eBay and Half.com have thousands upon thousands of positive feedbacks (apparently people are willing to spend money on bootlegs?) Some even passing tens of thousands. How can they stay in business so long?! That's the real outrage!!

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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: Anime Distribution
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2007, 02:00:43 am »
The business and distribution models are being subjected to shocks, and they'll have to adapt. Not a new event in an industry by any means; for example from about 1820 - 1840 the cost of a clock movement made in USA dropped from $200 to $2, and then to about 50 cents. (in 1840's dollars) Mostly because some guys in Connecticut figured out how to stamp gears from brass rather than cast gear blanks and hand-finish ALL the teeth on ALL the gears, one by one. This lead to some nasty trade & tariff wars between the US and England (where some of the best tool makers lived and worked,) and attempts by England to prevent emmigration to the US of people who were known to be top-notch machinists and toolmakers. "How is the industry going to survive - all our craftsmen will STARVE - if the market value of their work drops to ONE PERCENT of what it ...um... 'should be?' ")

The parallels in anime are things like:
- labor outsourcing of tweeners in China and other low-cost regions,
- a transition of technology from cel animation to all-digital,
- some Japanese talent moving to the US to produce work here
- 'looks-kinda-like-anime' and 'looks-kinda-like-manga' products are taking market share from 'real' (Japanese) anime & manga producers, just like cubic zirconium took a chunk out of the diamond market.
- The domestic market (Japan) has borne prices has high as $30USD per 25-minute episode, but has encountered strong downward pressure on pricing because global price expectations are much less that that.

Another possibility is that the fansubbers are filling niche demands that the conventional Japan-to-USA distribution channels miss. My guesses here are:
- a. Speed to Market. Fansubbers often get subtitled works to their core audience within a week or two. Not 9 - 18 months.
- b. Special services or value: Many fansubs include additional cultural information such as historical notes. Fansubbers often have a strong understanding of Japanese and preserve the nuances of the language and culture better than what is released by US-based licensees. The fansub audience is *quite* distinct from the Dubbed-Anime-on-US-cable audience, and one problem for licensees is that if they make a high-profile blunder (butchering content to serve the English-dub crowd as in CCS, graphics overlay in Nadesico, or re-naming 'Kimi ga Nozomu Eien' as 'Rumbling Hearts') they repel the fansub audience. Meanwhile, I'd bet the Cartoon Network crowd wouldn't find any interest in a show like 'Tenpou Ibun Ayakashi Ayashi,' or 'Nitabou.' So the US licensees either have to consider TWO product lines or TWO versions of the same product. Oh wait - remember when dub VHS tapes cost LESS than sub, even though there's obviously less WORK to produce a sub? There you go again, alienating your fanbase.
- c. Not forcing your customers to receive something they don't care about: The majority of the fansub audience doesn't consider English dub to be an added value, so they're not willing to pay extra or wait longer for that next ep. Might as well shrink-wrap a paperback book with an ammonia counter-top cleaner. The producer is like "Hey - look what you get FREE when you buy this book," and the customer goes "Are you nuts?!? I didn't NEED that!" Also, DVDs that force you to watch irrelevant ads before you get to the stuff you PAID for. Fansubs DON'T do this.
- d. Anonymity and privacy. With analog TV and radio, there was a vital and important disconnect between the broadcaster and the identity of the receivers. One way to keep that is pay cash when buying anime DVDs, but that's not always convenient. A new distribution model should respect the privacy and maintain anonymity of the payer, bith during purchase and playback.
- e. Advertisement support. In the old-school TV days, people felt that if you liked a show, you should make some effort buy the products advertised, and then let the company know you chose them over their competition in part for their sponsorship of the show. But that was back in the day of writing letters by hand or whacking <bing> away on the Smith-Corona or Royal typewriter <carriage return>
<zzzzick>
My wife and I did this with Pizza Hut in Code Geass - and we even use the phrase 'support the rebellion!' as a code to mean buying from Pizza Hut, and I *did* once go to their corporate site to thank them for their sponsorship of the anime studio.

Possible solution: a sub-only US-based licensee offering free d/l's of ad-supported avi's within 2-wks of the original air dates?

Offline MichaelEvans

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Re: Anime Distribution
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2007, 04:42:36 am »
The business and distribution models are being subjected to shocks, and they'll have to adapt. Not a new event in an industry by any means; for example from about 1820 - 1840 the cost of a clock movement made in USA dropped from $200 to $2, and then to about 50 cents. (in 1840's dollars) Mostly because some guys in Connecticut figured out how to stamp gears from brass rather than cast gear blanks and hand-finish ALL the teeth on ALL the gears, one by one. This lead to some nasty trade & tariff wars between the US and England (where some of the best tool makers lived and worked,) and attempts by England to prevent emmigration to the US of people who were known to be top-notch machinists and toolmakers. "How is the industry going to survive - all our craftsmen will STARVE - if the market value of their work drops to ONE PERCENT of what it ...um... 'should be?' ")
...
I agree with pretty much everything you said in that post in general, if not in specific.  Some things really need to be tweaked relating to the actual value, and you're still not breaking away from a mass-production effort.  Pure digital solutions allow for automated customization.

The key benefits:
  • Pre-Orders are easy
  • Piecemeal delivery (that is, as each component is ready it's added to the download queue)
  • Content Upgrades (Just buy more pieces, like bonus content on Microsoft's Xbox Live service)
  • Transparency (Both on pricing and on sub-process milestones in a well built system.)
  • No waste on duplication (Only the redundancy you design) or transportation (only when you make a sale) of information; including complete removal of storage.  If someone wants to buy a DVD do a high quality burn and print on to the disk (make sure to send some kind of fancy piece of paper with a hologram logo or something too).
  • Studios can do this directly from Japan (No middle-men... conversely less jobs in content production, but that model's broken anyway, and they won't be around 5 years from now regardless.)

For my full solution please see here (other Kumoricon thread).  Yes, BTW, I am human and made a spelling mistake...
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: Anime Distribution
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2007, 09:05:06 am »
For my full solution please see here (other Kumoricon thread).
Yes I saw that as well and you have some great points and suggestions. I still want to nail down the anonymity-privacy-unmoderated use question, though.

In the meantime, most of your improvements seem right in line with TPS* management tools (*Toyota Production System.) and you are addressing several of Taiichi Ohno's Seven Wastes (of Lean Manufacturing.) Digital D/Ls easily avoid #1, 2, and 5.**  by duplicating (i.e, manufacturing) content only as it is demanded and purchased. Anyways, here they are:

1. Unnecessary Transport of materials: Shipping DVDs = burning jet fuel and diesel trucks along the way vs. a digital d/l which includes the licensee rights to create one back-up DVD at the consumer's location.

2 Inventories beyond the absolute minimum: Self-explanatory as regards digital d/ls.

5. Overproduction ahead of demand: This is a risk some US licensees have taken at times - and you can often find decent stop-loss pricing on sale items at Robert's, or Right Stuf when somebody makes a production decision based on an overly rosy forecast.

6. Overprocessing of parts: Giving people what they don't want or aren't interested in paying for. In manufacturing this might be producing a part on an accurate machine to an exact dimension and a near mirror-perfect surfact finish - for a mower blade on a bush hog. In anime, it's lining up all that English dub talent when you have a significant audience who find subtitles sufficient, and doens't ever listen to the dubs included on DVD.

[3 Motions of employees]
[4. Waiting for the next process step]
[7. Producing Defective parts]
These last 3 aren't really relevant, but I included them here at the bottom for people who are curious about all Seven Wastes.

Here's another good reference site: http://www.emsstrategies.com/dm090203article2.html
(Maybe not in the same order...)

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Offline MichaelEvans

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Re: Anime Piracy
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2007, 10:02:49 pm »
[3 Motions of employees]
[4. Waiting for the next process step]
[7. Producing Defective parts]
These last 3 aren't really relevant, but I included them here at the bottom for people who are curious about all Seven Wastes.
Actually, #4 sounds extremely relevant.  Waiting for dubbing to finish before you sell to fansub followers. (Who are very likely willing to take speed over having a voice track in the language those around them speak.  As we've both noted, they may even prefer the original language.)
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Offline SirKyo21

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Re: Anime Piracy
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2007, 12:08:53 am »
lol I love fan sub not to say I think stealing is cool but honistly be open about it fan sub has made it so that when anime comes out that most ppl have not seen ppl turn to fan sub coz it take foreaver to have it come to the US coz of all the ps and cutting it goes in I mean I was told that one peace it cool in fan sub and has alot of blood n stuff but in the hands of the US theres no blood and hardly any good fights dragon ballz and stuff was **** cool but has any one seen it all the way in full fan sub from japan it kicks so much ass but any who PLZ dont hate me for my opinion
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Offline Cassiopeia

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Re: Anime Piracy
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2007, 02:19:11 am »
A lot of the fansubs look cooler too, with matching the text to the picture... I know that's hard for subtitle tracks on DVDs.  ::)
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Offline MichaelEvans

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Re: Anime Piracy
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2007, 02:23:53 am »
One thing I forgot to say, mostly because it's just the obvious summary of everything I said before.

The problem is that they didn't take the model that has been innovated and grass-roots developed and proven, and figuring out how to legitimize it or otherwise do almost the same thing but with value added and for a profit to the studios.  Instead, they saw some other media that they could try (and have obviously failed) to market the same old broken way other similar media that is domestically produced is released.

What I didn't say, because I just realized it, is that they also didn't realize it was far more like Independent Productions are natively.  That is, valued for how they are filling a need that the mass marketed consumer crap we're usually fed is woefully missing.  Anime has spread like Indie films, through clubs, community events (conventions), and specialized (or just so large they can hold some specialties) video rental places.

Each of those more specialized productions really need a faster, lighter, more adaptive, almost gorilla warfare inspired set of tactics for serving the needs of their true audience.
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