Karaoke auditions poll

[Radien]

This poll is intended for everyone who performed in the karaoke contest, tried out at karaoke auditions, or at any point considered entering the contest.

I realize a lot of you have never been to a convention that had auditions for karaoke. It wasn't my idea, originally, but I thought it was worth trying out, so I'll take responsibility for how it went.

In the end, someone has to get cut, and believe me, it sucks to have to do it.  When we reached the end of the audition, we tallied up the scores, and my thoughts were "THESE are the lowest scores?!" since most of them were rated as above average.  The best act to get get cut got a 9 out of 15, which is actually pretty good.

We only ended up cutting four acts, which suggests that we were perhaps a little too small for the auditions idea (though this will obviously not be the case next year). However, it also allowed us to make some suggestions and help a few people out. One or two performers didn't have audio tracks, and at least one of them found someone with the right song on CD after their audition.

So, lemme have it! I want your opinions now! :idea:

[FilkAeris]

I think it's a very good idea, especially for larger cons.  Some people will get their toes stepped on, I know, but it's far better to have that happen than the alternative.  Too often have I had to comfort friends who worked on their act for weeks only to show up a few slots too late for signup, and then have to watch as some random person, who decided on the spur of the moment to try and compete, screeches their way through a song they only know half the lyrics to.  This way you're guaranteed to get the best acts, which are more than likely the ones people put work into...and the spur-of-the-momenters can sing their hearts out at open mike.  ^_^

[SailorNaboo]

I think it's a very good idea, especially for larger cons.  Some people will get their toes stepped on, I know, but it's far better to have that happen than the alternative.  Too often have I had to comfort friends who worked on their act for weeks only to show up a few slots too late for signup, and then have to watch as some random person, who decided on the spur of the moment to try and compete, screeches their way through a song they only know half the lyrics to.  This way you're guaranteed to get the best acts, which are more than likely the ones people put work into...and the spur-of-the-momenters can sing their hearts out at open mike.  ^_^

If you really want to start some fun, post this in some of the Karaoke threads on the Sakura BBS!  There are some people there that want to sing along with the vocals and feel they have some sort of a right to not actually do Karaoke at a Karaoke contest because, "It was that way before."   :twisted:

[sharsachan]

My group was one of the ones cut, and we were very disappionted because we didnt know it was auditions. We had been working for a couple weeks on it and thought the meeting was just a meeting, not auditions.

Its very possible that we just overlooked that when we were reading about the karaokee, but we also feel that it was never made clear during the karaokee 'meeting' {the auditions} that was held. We didn't know it was auditions until we were standing by the info desk waiting for someone and another person taped a peice of paper to the wall and some cosplayer squealed "the karaokee results are up!" and we started at the paper and came to the realization we had auditioned eariler, as opposed to just a run through.

We also felt we got cheated on our audition. We had a skit worked out to perform during the karaokee based on our characters, but the skit didn't start until about half way through the song during an instrumental, and because we got cut off about a minute in the song, we never got to show the skit.

I know the meeting/auditions were running late and there wasn't enough time for everyone to do the full song or whatever, but you asked for feelings and this is how my group felt.

[MikeJ1592]

First I got to give credit to everyone that has the guts to sing and act up on stage.
 
 **twitches with stage fright**

I agree with FilkAeris with the point about the main event Karaoke should be focused with the best acts.   I have to say the Karaoke acts that did make it on stage were AWSUM the best Karaoke I have ever heard.  I wish I had a recording of some of them they were so good.

I think the biggest cause of the having to cut people short in the auditions was the fact that they never even expected to see anything near 1271+ people show up for the con.  Its a delicate balance of time, too much and theres time waisted, not enough and you start running late.  It's just like expontial traffic jams.  (leave an hour before work you get there in ten minutes, leave half an hour before work and it takes 45 minutes to get to work )  

Mike J

I twitch therfore I have had too much esspresso

[Ritsuko]

There are some very arguable points here, but what it comes down to for me is NOT FAIR.

If you have to do auditions, you should at least listen to the entrants entire song before making a decision. What if they have super cool fun stuff that they're putting in there? What if you miss out on that? What if you don't take into account that the group is acting in character? Or that they themselves have been practicing for over a month?

I think that, though you were working on a time schedule, there were only four more acts. And I'm not saying this in, 'Gaaaah, I'm so pissed off my group got cut' way. I'm saying that in a 'wow, if those other four acts were that good, why not let them have fun too?' way.

I'm not some prima donna (not saying anyone was). I didn't want to win an award. I just wanted to sing. I thought that the point of karaoke was just to get up on stage and sing and have fun with each other.

We weren't informed that they were auditions, just told that they were practice runthroughs, and that everyone regardless of when they signed up would be let in.

My roomate says that part of what makes karaoke so fun for her is that not everybody is the greatest singer, or can necessarily sing at all, but are willing to get up there and have a good time. When karaoke becomes a singing competition only with only the best of the singers, it loses that fun to watch. It goes from being karaoke to being American Idol.

And who wants that?  

Whether or not we plan on participating next year, if it is run the same way as this year, we don't plan to try, or go to it, because what's the point if we're not among the elite singers, no matter how hard we practiced?

[Ritsuko]

If you really want to start some fun, post this in some of the Karaoke threads on the Sakura BBS!  There are some people there that want to sing along with the vocals and feel they have some sort of a right to not actually do Karaoke at a Karaoke contest because, "It was that way before."   :twisted:

Well, my roomate's not musically trained, and sings beautifully, but can't follow a song unless there are vocals to it. And not all songs to be sung have an actual karaoke track to them, so I think that's a very unfair and mean thing to say.

[SailorNaboo]

My group was one of the ones cut, and we were very disappionted because we didnt know it was auditions. We had been working for a couple weeks on it and thought the meeting was just a meeting, not auditions.

I'm not sure how clear or unclear it was in advance it was that auditions were happening.  What is clear is that it wasn't clear enough because you weren't aware of it.  If it comes up again, I'd stuggest having a different starting place in mind for the song in case there isn't time to do your whole song in advance.  That way, the judges can see all of the best parts.  (But this is hindsite, I wouldn't have known to suggest this to you before the audition.)

[SailorNaboo]

If you really want to start some fun, post this in some of the Karaoke threads on the Sakura BBS!  There are some people there that want to sing along with the vocals and feel they have some sort of a right to not actually do Karaoke at a Karaoke contest because, "It was that way before."   :twisted:

Well, my roomate's not musically trained, and sings beautifully, but can't follow a song unless there are vocals to it. And not all songs to be sung have an actual karaoke track to them, so I think that's a very unfair and mean thing to say.

There isn't anything mean about it.  There is an ongoing debate that a Karaoke contest should only involve a musical presentation of a song (this can include some dancing).  It's a Karaoke Contest, not a "Sing Along,"  and right now, outside of a few disgruntled people that want to enter a Karaoke Contest doing "sing along" the logic of, it's Karaoke, so it should not have another lead singer audible is winning.

Also, in terms of Japanese songs, there are TONS available for Karaoke.  When many people say, "It's not available," what it comes down to much of the time is that they couldn't find a free copy to download from Kaza or a Karaoke Web page.  (there are a few artists that refuse to have their songs on Karaoke, but not many).   There are plenty of Japanese sites with English that sell Karaoke CDs, it's just a lot of time people that say something is unavailable haven't really looked, or only want a pirated copy.

[Ritsuko]

There isn't anything mean about it.  There is an ongoing debate that a Karaoke contest should only involve a musical presentation of a song (this can include some dancing).  It's a Karaoke Contest, not a "Sing Along,"  and right now, outside of a few disgruntled people that want to enter a Karaoke Contest doing "sing along" the logic of, it's Karaoke, so it should not have another lead singer audible is winning.

Also, in terms of Japanese songs, there are TONS available for Karaoke.  When many people say, "It's not available," what it comes down to much of the time is that they couldn't find a free copy to download from Kaza or a Karaoke Web page.  (there are a few artists that refuse to have their songs on Karaoke, but not many).   There are plenty of Japanese sites with English that sell Karaoke CDs, it's just a lot of time people that say something is unavailable haven't really looked, or only want a pirated copy.

Well, we had dancing, that didn't get to be seen due to the one minute rule goin' on. And, any form of a skit that we had was used to get the crowd excited, and ready to have fun, because let's face it, the karaoke should be fun and not about lourding one's singing ability over another person.

I happen to love 'Less than Jake', but they don't have karaoke versions of their songs. I own their cd, and I didn't pirate it. We karaoke'd it at Nan Desu Kan last year, and everybody loved it.

If you're saying that people should only do Japanese songs, then you're leaving out a huge number of fans that have found English songs that they feel fit the character they are portraying, and becoming elitist, not letting anyone new, or those who can't sing easily in Japanese, join in the fun.

I guess it's horrible to want to sing a song with lyrics in the background, but it's okay to sing a song when you don't have it memorized but have the lyrics in your hand. (Which I personally have no problem with. If a person wants to sing a song but doesn't completely know the lyrics, or are a little nervous, heck, let 'em!)

I'm not trying to pick on anyone, or be mean myself, Beth, but the fact is, karaoke was invented for fun, and I feel that my group, and those three others left out, got shafted in that aspect.

[SailorNaboo]

And I totally agreed that no matter what happened, it wasn't known in advance to you that it was a limited time audition.  I suggested a work around for next time.  

When one does Karaoke, it's usual and customary to have the words projected on a screen, so I have mixed feelings about the whole having the words available soon.

As for the Japanese content, that's up to the specific director/Coordinator of the event.  Kumori selected to allow Japanese songs and Englsh songs with FOLK lyrics for their contest.  I believe Sakura's rules are similar.  I'm a wiz with music editing, and months in advance on this board, I offered to see if I could make Karaoke versions of songs for people.  It's not my department, but since it's a skill I have, I offered it for people.

At Kumoricon, I'm more liberal about cosplay characters.  I feel as long as the skit is Anime/Japanese Video Game/Japanese Culture based, I don't mind if a non Japanese character shows up in the skit (I may not be allowed to be that flexable at Sakura).

Back to the Karaoke, again, I agree that you should have gotten to show more of your act and that you didn't get the information that it was an audition.  Had you known that, you also could have asked to do a bit more of your song to show your what you worked up for it.

I also totally agree is should be about fun and creativity, but in terms of using non-Japanese songs, that's up to the Karaoke Director.  (If I were in that role, I'm most likely have the same rule, but I'd leave it open enough so exceptions could be made.  I can't memorise Japanese song lyrics worth a darn myself).

[Radien]

While the point of this thread is to get suggestions from people who might not have been entirely happy with karaoke, I feel like I have to defend myself on one of these counts.

Miscommunication was always one of my biggest fears as coordinator. Since there wasn't enough time to print up handout flyers, I had to stick with posters. Since I really didn't want anyone to have to wait until I dragged my lazy butt out of bed on the first day of the con (I knew people would be arriving early), I made a point of printing up 5 detailed copies of the rules and posting them in conspicuous spots in the lobby, then leaving a note for the info desk about referring people to the flyers.

If you read all the rules, it not only specified that it was an "audition/rehearsal," it also explained why I chose to do it that way. A slightly older but very similar version of the text on that flyer was also available in a thread on the forums for two or three weeks before the con.

We can always invest more effort into rumor control through public announcements, but in the end everyone should read all the rules. It just prevents a whole lot of problems.

As for karaoke tracks, I have to agree with what Sailor Naboo said for the most part. Sure, American songs sometimes don't have karaoke versions available, but just about anything in Japan that's ever come out on single (and some songs that haven't) has a karaoke track in existance. Since American songs aren't allowed in most con karaoke contests, they're largely a non-issue. It's just that a lot of people aren't willing to shell out the $12 or so to import Japanese singles on CD. Considering how much people spend in the dealer's room each year, I can't see why that's too much to ask.

(Note: while I hold this opinion, as of 2004 Kumori Con was still small enough that I didn't consider limiting entries to karaoke version tracks. It's still a hazy area that I didn't want to mess with.)

As for judging, there's a lot of grey area there. The big thing, though, is that karaoke contests will become very competitive. There's not much that can be done about that, because we can't exactly turn away the more competitive entries just because they're too good. I agree that vocal ability shouldn't be the only criteria by which we judge, but since karaoke is primarily about singing, it's going to take precedence.

I haven't yet agreed to a particular staff position for next year, but I may volunteer to be a karaoke assistant, and regardless of what I end up doing I'll make sure all of your suggestions get to the next person to run the contest.

[FizzTheCarbonated]

I liked the idea of auditions, but it would have been nice to have more time for said auditions.  On the other hand, I really feel that more people should have been cut.  There were just too many entries!  Karaoke quality was really great, but it went on for so looooong.  Three and a half hours.  That is a long time to spend ar karaoke, which meant that there was almost no time for open mike, you know?

Anyway.  Your mileage may very.  All I know was that my butt was very tired afterwards.  And my poor boyfriend was almost falling asleep in his chair, having been up for around 36 hours at that point.

TOO LOOOONG.

FizzTheCarbonated

[Radien]

My goal for the auditions was "quick and painless." However, judging from the general response, it seems that the auditioning performers, in general, would prefer it be just as formal as the contest itself, with regards to rules and such. This is something I hadn't considered, but probably should have in retrospect, because the fact that performers wouldn't have to stick around after their audition meant that running late wasn't as big a deal as it was during the actual contest.

As for the karaoke contest being too long, this is very true. However, it may have had less to do with the number of performers than you'd expect.  After all, each performer is allowed no more than 5 minutes on stage, so we know exactly how much time the actual performances will take up.

I'd say that the number of performers was only one among five or six different reasons for running so long. I would be happy to explain them in the General Karaoke Suggestions thread, which I just split from this topic (since I'd like to keep this poll topic targeted at all past and potential future performers). I'll post in there tomorrow or later this week.

[ndarkeral]

I completely agree with Ritsuko. I was thinking about entering the contest, but didn't because of the auditions.

Also, I might be misunderstanding, but I get impression from this thread that the songs are meant to be in japanese or english with Folk (or did you mean Filk?) only? Because there are plenty of english anime songs, like the ones in Sailor Moon. What if someone wanted to sing the Pokemon Opening theme?

[Irnogs]

Uhmm... I hope nobody gets too upset at me for pointing out the obvious, but if you can't make an audition you're not going to win a competition. So, if that's the case, why would you be upset that you just have to wait for open mike? Also, I'm sure that in the years to come the judging procedures and ability will improve and people will have a better understanding of what is expected, but keep in mind judges are human! If they decide that auditions will only be a minute long in the future, make sure that the minute you have on stage counts and shows the highlight of your performance. Remember, everyone else only got one minute too! It's unfortunate there was a misunderstanding with some people this year, but I'm sure we can look forward to everything improving for next year.

[sharsachan]

Also, I might be misunderstanding, but I get impression from this thread that the songs are meant to be in japanese or english with Folk (or did you mean Filk?) only? Because there are plenty of english anime songs, like the ones in Sailor Moon. What if someone wanted to sing the Pokemon Opening theme?

I agree. I feel that a couple of the comments on this thread have been aimed at our group. We auditioned with a song that is sang in English, but is used as the Ending Theme song for the first part of the Naruto series.

I realize that many people might not know that just off the top of their heads, but no one asked us about it and there was no where to write it when we signed up.

[Radien]

Your song must fit ONE of the following descriptions:
 The song is...
 - sung in Japanese, OR
 - a song by a Japanese artist (meaning, released in Japan), OR
 - a song from a Japanese game or anime, OR
 - an Anime Filk. (see below)

Yes, songs of Japanese origin sung in English were allowed. Cowboy Bebop is quite popular.

The only song we disqualified for the above rule, well, we also had other reasons. That was The Ramen Song. It was cute and funny, but it was about 30 seconds long, wasn't filking an anime, and was much better suited to Open Mic.

sharsachan:

Yes, I did have you guys in mind in some of these posts, but for the most part it's because I wanted you to have a place to express your opinions. Like you, I've been unable to compete in a karaoke contest once before, because too many people got there before me. I know it's a real disappointment, which is why I want to listen to comments from everyone who wanted to enter this year.

[ndarkeral]

To me an audition ruins the whole spirit of karaoke. A REAL karaoke contest would include all the bad singers too, that's what makes it fun. It's first come first serve, and I still find that fair. If you don't get in, just practice some more and do it next time.

[Radien]

Here are some arguments in favor of auditions, just to get them out in the open:

* Most of the performers seemed to have fun giving a brief preview of their performance at the audition.
* It's a lot better than having to wait in line for 30 minutes to an hour, doing nothing when you could be having fun.
* Someone's going to be disappointed. It's unavoidable. Auditions make it more likely that the people who are accepted are performers who put a lot of effort into their performance. People who enter on a whim, even if they're willing to wait in line half an hour, are likely to be less disappointed.

Lastly, as for the spirit of karaoke, well... in my opinion, the spirit of real karaoke is not to have a contest at all. The convention form of "Karaoke Contest" is actually a musical talent show.

If you want "real" karaoke, go to Open Mic, or better yet, Karaoke Room (which will probably get a name change next year). But since some of the people are always going to rehearse their song for weeks beforehand, we're going to have to expect that kind of a show. There really isn't any way around it.

[ndarkeral]

Auditions make it more likely that the people who are accepted are performers who put a lot of effort into their performance.

What if someone who is cut was praciticing months ahead, and there was someone else who entered on a whim that wasn't cut? That's not very fair at all.

[Radien]

What if someone who is cut was praciticing months ahead, and there was someone else who entered on a whim that wasn't cut? That's not very fair at all.

That's why I specifically made a point of saying "more likely." What you said would happen more often with first-come-first-serve.

[ndarkeral]

What if someone who is cut was praciticing months ahead, and there was someone else who entered on a whim that wasn't cut? That's not very fair at all.

That's why I specifically made a point of saying "more likely." What you said would happen more often with first-come-first-serve.

I was  refering to being cut out of the contest in the auditions.

[Ritsuko]

I agree with ndarkeral's logic. Doesn't karaoke mean some form of tone deaf in Japanese? Sheesh.

Oh well, at this point, it doesn't really matter anymore. Yeah, the group I was in has been pointed out as one of the left out ones for whatever reason. I don't really care anymore. My point was, that my opinion was asked. And that's what I gave.  I can think whatever I want to of the outcome of the whole thing. Obviously, people have different views about everything. Karaoke means something to everyone in a different way.

I just missed the fun of the event, mostly because there was no communication (which I know isn't entirely your fault, Radien, and I don't want to be some sort of bad guy because you are friends with one of my friends). And people's attitude about it.

I'm not some big fish in the Kumori waters, hell, everybody probably doesn't even care that I voiced my honest opinion. So my group sang to lyrics, wanted to act in character, and wanted to dance. The HORROR.

Next year I'll just keep myself in the dealer room where I belong, and away from competitive, nit-picked events.

[ndarkeral]

 My point was, that my opinion was asked. And that's what I gave.  I can think whatever I want to of the outcome of the whole thing. Obviously, people have different views about everything. Karaoke means something to everyone in a different way.

Yeah, you wanted our opinions, we gave them, you don't need to argue about them with us, which seems like what you're doing.. Sorry if my impression is wrong.

[TheRoninBishounen]

Doesn't karaoke mean some form of tone deaf in Japanese?

Actually, that's a common myth. Karaoke actually means "empty orchestra".

"kara"= "empty"
"oke"= short for "orchestra"

Anyway, just thought I'd add that.

Oh, and I really have no idea why they call it that. *shrugs*

[plude]

My group practiced for a month and still got cut.  However, even if I hadn't I still would have thought this idea distroyed the true feeling of karaoke where no matter how good or bad you are, you get to sing.  However, I'm not really here to argue my thoughts on karaoke so much as to complain personally to you, Radien.  

I feel the way my group was treated by you was completely unfair and biased.  When we asked you if it was an audition or if everyone just got in you told us the latter.  Then, after we found out that it was an audition, and we had been cut we went to you and you lied to our faces, telling us it wasn't really up to you at all.  I have been to and done panels at way to many conventions to count, and NO ONE has EVER treated people participating in one of thier events in such a way that I have seen.  I feel that myself and my group deserve a personal apology from you for your biased and underhanded behavior.  I don't even know why you saw it fit to act like that as I don't even remember really knowing you all that well before.  Do you just have a problem with me or one of my group's members?  I'm not really sure I understand.

[plude]

Doesn't karaoke mean some form of tone deaf in Japanese?

Actually, that's a common myth. Karaoke actually means "empty orchestra".

"kara"= "empty"
"oke"= short for "orchestra"

Anyway, just thought I'd add that.

Oh, and I really have no idea why they call it that. *shrugs*

Wow, I guess you learn something new everyday. The TV commercial lied!!!  :lol: (says, Ritsuko, as Plude forgot to log out)

[Radien]

*blinks* What in the world...? Okay, there are some major miscommunications going on here; a lot worse than I'd expected. This is going to be a long post, and I'm going to start from the top.

Yeah, you wanted our opinions, we gave them, you don't need to argue about them with us, which seems like what you're doing.. Sorry if my impression is wrong.

I'm simply defending some of my decisions and explaining why I made others, even if some of those others turned out not as well as I'd hoped. Some of the problems were my fault. Some were out of my hands. I am just one person, but I have responsibilities, I have opinions, and occasionally I make mistakes.

This isn't my karaoke contest. This is the Kumori Con Karaoke contest, and I have not yet applied to coordinate next year's contest. I will probably volunteer to be an assistant or "underling" if someone else offers to do it. Regardless of who runs it, I created this thread for the benefit of next year's coordinator, because my coordinator job for 2004 is done.

Keep in mind that Kumori Con has grown hugely between cons as well as during. At the end of last year, I was the only person to apply for karaoke coordinator. I'm a somewhat experienced musician, but this was my first experience as an event coordinator. I only stepped up because it appeared that someone was needed, and because it sounded fun. It's all in the nature of conventions for more qualified people to pop up every year and sign up as staff.

I feel the way my group was treated by you was completely unfair and biased.  When we asked you if it was an audition or if everyone just got in you told us the latter.

Now this is where I think we had a gross miscommunication. At no point did I ever intend to communicate this to anyone. Here are two things I remember saying to someone that might have been misconstrued:

1. I was asked several times by different people whether they could sign up for auditions even though the sheet was full. This sheet was not created by me or by my request. Someone wrote it up along with the other signups, and left it at the info desk. I decided to roll with the punches, and used the sheet as a "take a number" system to determine who got to audition first.

2. My standard response as to the purpose of auditions was the same as it said on the rules sheet posted in five places in the lobby:

We will only use auditions for qualification if your song does not fit the rules, or if we exceed our maximum number of entrants. (The cap will be 22 people)

I didn't expect to get over 22 entries, but I prepared for it. I may have said that we would probably not have to cut anyone, which I believed at the time, but that was before we were able to see how many people would show up to audition.

Then, after we found out that it was an audition, and we had been cut we went to you and you lied to our faces, telling us it wasn't really up to you at all.

I'm pretty sure what I said was something to the effect of "that's up to all of the judges." Emphasis on the word "all." I was one of the audition judges, but only one of three. We added up the combined scores up between all three of us and went down the list. Since it's hard to judge the first few performances at an audition, having nothing to compare them to (people who go first tend to score lower, which we wanted to avoid), we arranged to meet afterwards and decide whether anyone deserved a score change in hindsight. Val wasn't able to come to the final discussion, but we tallied her scores in with our own.

The scores were high. Half of the cut entries got ratings equivalent to "good," including yours. In fact, for a moment I wanted to let 24 entries in, but the other audition judge with me rightly reminded me that that would be even less fair to the two remaining entries (we had 26 of them total). I had to either let in 22 entries or let in everybody whose song was within the rules.

I'm very unhappy that it sounds like I slighted you, because I hated cutting your group as much as anybody else I had to cut. Truth be told, I breathed a sigh of relief when I heard that you'd won an award in the cosplay contest, because it was well-earned. That was two of your group up there doing Ninja of the Night, wasn't it?

Let me say that I'm sorry anyone felt hurt by getting cut. If any of you felt you were subject to miscommunications, I'll do my best to address them for next year. For one, I was working without an assistant (though Sailor Naboo, the one who presented the awards, helped out quite a lot at the last minute), who could have provided educated answers while I was busy with other problems.

In the future, remember that miscommunications are always a possibility, whether the fault of the coordinator, or of misconstrued rumors that have been passed around several times. When in doubt, refer to the rules sheet. The rules flyer answered many of your questions much more clearly than I could have verbally. If any of you want more confirmations about what the flyer said, I have it right beside me. The file is currently on Sean's computer, since it was in Con Ops during the convention, but I can quote the document in whole or in part if you need me to.

[sharsachan]

I'm very unhappy that it sounds like I slighted you, because I hated cutting your group as much as anybody else I had to cut. Truth be told, I breathed a sigh of relief when I heard that you'd won an award in the cosplay contest, because it was well-earned. That was two of your group up there doing Ninja of the Night, wasn't it?

Actually, though its really a mute point because we still got an award, but our group was the Whipped Cream and Sasuke group. Just to clarify.

[plude]

Um, first off, I would just like to clarify that we were not "Ninja of the Night".  I don't want those cool people people getting mixed up in this.   We were a small part of "Sasuke and Whipped Creme" although most of that group had nothing to do with this as well.    

Second, we signed up, and no one told any of us about ANY rules flyers or such things in our con bags, if there were any, nor posted.  We saw nothing.  Then, we were informed the karaoke meeting was a "rehersal" and while waiting in line we asked you personally face to face.  You informed us that it was just a rehersal and everyone would get in.  Then, while we were singing, our song got cut off in the middle.  No one told us this would happen.  We never got to show our grand finale, and our Kakashi didn't even get to make his appearance.  We went to ask you what the deal was, and you pretty much told us it was like a sound check thing and it didn't matter that we didn't get to do our best part.  Had I known ahead of time it was all going to be run like this I wouldn't have even bothered to try out anyway.  We had a VERY busy skedule and set aside a good portion of our time for this.   At least if I would have known I would have had them skip ahead in the music so we could include everyone.

I would have been sad I didn't get in had I known it was a tryout, but I would have been ready for it and not been upset.  As it was, NONE of my 4 person group had any CLUE it was a tryout instead of a rehersal, and we were CRUSHED when we found out that we hadn't even gotten to do our best for the tryout.  When we went to you afterwards and informed you that we had no idea of the tryout situation you said it hadn't been up to you at all and you hadn't known that would happen.  My Naruto personally appologized to you for being agitated as did I, but now I see that the information you gave to us was incorrect if you yourself were even one of the judges.   I don't see how this was run all that fairly.

[Radien]

Alright... so you were the whipped cream people.  Sorry, I was in the very back and I couldn't see any faces, and since that skit used an audio voiceover, I couldn't recognize voices.

Things are beginning to unfold in some ways and become hazy in others.  Okay, for starters:

Like I said, I posted a flyer right next to the info desk and left a note on the counter which said in large letters "Refer karaoke questions to the rules flyer" with an arrow pointing to the left.  When I came downstairs, around 10, I went to the info booth and made sure they'd seen it.  Tammy said she had, and that she'd indeed directed people to it.  Since Tammy was there most of the con, I'm sure she directed people correctly while she was on duty.  If someone else was misinformed, I don't know who it was.

After that, someone handed me the signup sheet.  I was surprised and asked who made it, because I hadn't asked for a signup sheet. They didn't know, so I decided to use it to determine audition order.

As for the rest of your accounts, I am really quite baffled and frustrated about the whole matter. :? I don't remember ever attempting to convey that meaning to anyone. It's quite likely I misunderstood your questions, especially if I thought you had read the rules. Now that I hear how it came about, I'm really sorry it turned out that way. I was communicating simultaneously with a room full of 40+ people at one point, many of whom were coming and going as we progressed, and that's not something I'm very good at.

I'm fairly sure what happened with regards to one of those questions, though. At one point I said something to the effect of "we only have twenty people slated to audition so far, so unless more people sign up everyone will get in."

Well, more people signed up. :?

[plude]

I appreciate your addressing this issue with us, and like I stated, no one pointed or showed us any flyers at all.  We were some of the first people to sign up.  So, perhapps the rules and such were not there yet.  I do not know.  I just know that no one pointed to them or mentioned them in any way.  That was why we asked you when we were in line.  Thankfully, it sounds like next year this will be a lot more organized so this doesn't happen to anyone else.

It doesn't really matter what group we were I just didn't want the poor "Ninja of the Night" people to get involved by association, and I didn't want such situations to happen to anyone next year.  Thank you for your time in addressing this issue.  Obviously, there was much confusion.  

Next year, however, I will not be trying out because I don't want to be part of a karaoke that doesn't allow singers of all ranges, but that really doesn't have anything to do with you.  Thank you for further explaining the miscommunication as it upset many of the members of my group, especially myself since your answers and statements to my questions had lead me to believe you were lieing to me after I had seen that you were indeed a major part of the order and organization of this contest.   Myself(Sasuke) and Ritsuko(Naruto) appreciate very much that you took the time to clear this up and accept your appology for the misscommunication.  Arigatou.  ^_^

[Radien]

Phew. I'm glad that was all cleared up. I really wish you wouldn't use the word "lying," though. I hate to think that any of us might be capable of knowingly doing that.

One more point of explanation: the flyers were up (late) Friday night and were not taken down or moved until well after the contest. There was one directly to the left of the info booth, two taped to the tops of the counters by registration and T-shirts, and two other flyers posted on mirror-faced pillars.

What's true is that the flyers were conspicuous enough that most people saw them without trouble. However, someone always slips through the cracks, and you seem to have been those people this time. Did you pick up your badges Friday night? If so, then you would have missed the flyer at registration, the ones on the pillars might not have been visible enough to catch your eye, and we know that someone at the info desk was mistaken, probably because they were understaffed throughout the entire con.

I hate to hear that someone is considering not entering because of a principle, but since we all have our varying opinions I guess that is just something I'm going to live with.  Whether or not we do auditions is still quite up in the air, as it probably will be for a good while. However, I have two things to say about it:

1. If the response is overwhelmingly against it, I would probably not continue auditions, should I have any say in the matter next year. After all, it's your con as much as ours.

2. The decision may be in someone else's hands, so we'll have to see who ends up with the job.


One final message: remember that this was my "experiment." One of several, actually. In fact, a lot of the things we did this year were experiments; attempts to create new ideas and methods.  While we all respect Sakura Con and owe them a lot for their experience and assistance, we want to learn from their successes and shortcomings, and try out new things, rather than attempt to become a carbon copy.

[mira]

Wow.  I had no idea this was such a touchy subject.  I didn't participate in Karaoke because I had no music along and I doubted anyone would have the songs I actually knew.  Also, I doubted anyone would want to hear me sing.  I mean I love to do it but a competition is not something I'm qualified for and I know it.  But I did attend the karaoke room until the dance started (though I never did get the courage to get up there-maybe next year).

My two cents, for what it's worth, is that Karaoke competitions can be very long and even tedious. Even though I respect everyone willing to get up there and sing in front of all those strangers I don't necessarily want to hear them all (ouch, sorry no one specific in mind here just some past Karaoke assaults I've been witness to!)  As an audience member I don''t want to sit through multiple multiple hours of people singing in a COMPETITION. My butt gets sore.  I'm glad everyone's having fun in the abstract but making the show have a standard for entries is a huge win for the audience. This ups the fun of the event for the most number of people.  So cutting a few = more fun for many as I see it.  

Competition = winners and losers and thus a search for excellence.   You can think of the auditions as a pre-screen or a pre-competition competition. Whether it happens before or after it's disappointing for some.  Competitions are like that.  At least when some of the disappointment comes before the main event the audience doesn't have to share the burden.

If you just want to sing for the sheer joy of it then go to open mike events or the Karaoke room.  Those are a lot of fun and are really true Karaoke.  Just hanging out with a friendly crowd and singing for the fun of it.  If you "just want to sing" it's the perfect venue- no entertainment quality vocal skills required.

mira

[hikaru_maxwell]

Uhmm... I hope nobody gets too upset at me for pointing out the obvious, but if you can't make an audition you're not going to win a competition. So, if that's the case, why would you be upset that you just have to wait for open mike?

Did you go to the open mike this year?  I was at the Dating Game for awhile, but the open mic for the second day of the Con was held in a small room off to one side, past the fanfic room, and seemed like it was really being pushed to one side.....We even had sound leaking in from the dance.  There weren't that many attendees.  It could be that the people entering the contest wanted to perform for a larger audience.  Perhaps there strongest suit wasn't their singing (I know that the auditions were way too short, so the fact that some acts got cut for being "not good enough" wasn't surprising, considering that they weren't really given a good chance to show what their performance was really made of), but they should still get the chance to have that rush.  I've been in Solo and stage performances, and I know that there is a really big difference in singing to a full room, and singing to a barely there one.  It just doesn't seem right to deny that chance to the people who have worked really hard for that.  

Besides that, I was at the Karaoke auditions this year (my partner decided not to sing, and I had left my music at home, so we left) and I remember them saying that we'd get a minute and to start at the beginning.  I know that that was probably to save time, but still.....saying that you show them the highlight of your performance, sometimes that doesn't work.  

@Radien:

I was actually going to audition for the Karaoke, too.  I was also under the impression that the auditions were just a run-through (but I did not compete for multiple reasons).  If it weren't for the fact that I had been on the forums and visited the Kumoricon site prior to the actual con (And judging from their status, Plude and Ritsuko were not), I would probably have had the same impression.  I visited the info booth while they were still understaffed, and when I signed up for the Karaoke, they said it was the sign up for the contest and failed to point me to the rules posters.  There were many people in the way of the booth, as well, so I did not see the arrow.  (the info booth was covered with paper and items/con info stuff at this point, so it's likely that some of your postings were covered.  Also, the staff working the booth at the time could not give me any information for the contest outside of "Sign up, and go here at this time for the rehearsal".  I actually signed up for the Karaoke about 10 minutes after the opening ceremonies, so it's possible that they could have signed up near that time.....(There were many circumstances surrounding the lack of information available at that time, such as people standing in front of posters, lack of information for the info booth people, and too much information, so things needed to be stacked,and some of the announcements were covered up?)

Anyway, a suggestion for next year could be something like what Plude said, and put Karaoke information flyers in the con bags.

[Radien]

mira:

First of all, since this is the second comment about it, I wanted to point out the multiple reasons for karaoke running late.

1. The start was delayed due to late performer arrivals. This was partially my fault. At the audition I told performers to check the results for the time and location they should go to before the contest. In my rush to get it printed up (we had a paper shortage and someone was waiting in front of me), I forgot to note that performers should be there 30 minutes early. So, I had to wait until they all got there before we could start, since we had to collect CDs and inform people of their performance order, bare minimum.

2. The start was also delayed due to a sudden judge disappearance. This judge was constricted by a "contractual obligation" to one of the convention sponsors - Konami, who supplied the Grand Prize.

3. BakaZoku performed as well. This was unplanned until just before the contest, but I thought it would be well-received.

4. Brad DeMoss, our great find for M.C. who was also Guest of Honor, was getting a great response, so I gave him more freedom. This meant he did one non-competing karaoke song of his own and took time in-between performances for audience interaction. It should have been my responsibility to inform him when we needed to hurry up and move on.

5. The awards were delayed because of a staff miscommunication of who was to bring the prizes from con ops. I also made a bad decision regarding a potential prize demonstration and subsequent fetch errand; I should have ditched it and just gone ahead.

All-in-all, I need to remember that going over DOES matter to some people; Open Mic has more freedom since it's come-and-go.


Regarding auditions (mira):

Plenty of people don't like running the risk of not being accepted, but I wonder if these same people would retain their opinions if they could confirm that they'd get cut out of a future competition because 5 entrants got in line a few minutes before them.

To me, it's all a matter of who you have to say "no" to. Yes, someone will always be majorly disappointed, even if future auditions were to become much more organized and accurate than they were for 2004, and alternately even if we switch to first-come-first-serve.  But I sincerely hope we can avoid making people feel "wronged."


hikaru maxwell:

That's a common misconception; the Sunday night event was actually "Karaoke Room." Open Mic happened after the karaoke contest. Now, this didn't matter much, except to say that whether or not Karaoke Room was "nearly empty" didn't really concern me, since it was a casual event.

Open Mic itself was held on the big stage. It was brief and only got about 20-25 people at any given point, but that was because the contest was too long and people wanted air. So, similar problem, but completely different causes.


Regarding auditions (hikaru):

Again, while I agree it would be better to take more pre-measures to educate people who have just registered, the info booth problem was something I only could have prevented if I had gotten up when registration started and checked up on them multiple times in the ensuing hours. I was relying on info booth volunteers to point you to the poster, rather than signs.

They should not have been pointing you to the signup sheet and saying that was the final word. Basically, info booth should have seen the rule sheet, but not all of them had, even though Tammy the coordinator indeed knew about it when I asked her. Blame can't be placed on anyone in particular, but just so you know, that's where something went wrong.

Note to self: if involved in Karaoke next year, get double-sized piece of paper, write "KARAOKE RULES HERE" on it in red magic marker, and post it 1 foot above eye level and mere inches away from the info desk... (And also do the flyer thing)



One more comment:
Miscommunication and other problems were apparently caused in part by my over-optimism. Several times I said "if only X people show up, everybody's in," because in my heart I didn't want to cut anybody. I also didn't want to scare anybody off, since I know the word "auditions" always causes no-shows.

Then at the actual contest, I let it run long because I figured people were enjoying the show, so it was all good. However, even a good show can still be too long, it turns out. :? Next year I wil try to be more realistic in whatever I choose to volunteer for.

[hikaru_maxwell]

Thank you for your input.  I was just offering my opinion, as you asked at the beginning of the thread.  (I reread my post this morning, and I realized I sounded a little mean, sorry.  I'm not trying to place blame, I'm just offering up my view of the circumstances that surrounded the misconceptions and such about the Karaoke, and why there were some misconceptions.)  I don't really think it was any particular group falling through the cracks.  It seems like it was just a series of circumstances and miscommunication that let some people fall through.  Those groups were not the only ones who were misinformed...that's all.  (I'm just lucky I'm such a computer geek, or else I wouldn't have known anything about the Auditions portion either....heh. ^_^ Ah, well.  If it means anything, that was a pretty good showing for your first time as an event coordinator, and we all make mistakes......My first time being volunteer staff at a con was horrifying...so don't feel bad about the things that went wrong.  Experience helps, even if it's not quite positive all the time..... :wink:

[Teh Becca]

I was quite disappointed that Open Mic was so short, as the Karaoke Contest ran late, but I understand that these things happen. Perhaps you could have it on a different day than the Karaoke Contest, or just move the Karaoke Contest to earlier next year? I would've loved to enter the contest itself but I was busy during auditions.

[SailorNaboo]

I was quite disappointed that Open Mic was so short, as the Karaoke Contest ran late, but I understand that these things happen. Perhaps you could have it on a different day than the Karaoke Contest, or just move the Karaoke Contest to earlier next year? I would've loved to enter the contest itself but I was busy during auditions.

I'm glad you wrote in, RebeccaLynne.  We've been giving that a lot of thought!  We have been looking into is having a few small rooms available throughout the con as "Karaoke Booths."  Some would have Karaoke Revolution and one would have the Karaoke machine.  They would be placed in an area not next to the dance for sound purposes.  We've also thought about having times were a larger "open mike room" is available at different times as well.

[mira]

mira:

First of all, since this is the second comment about it, I wanted to point out the multiple reasons for karaoke running late.

I never said anything about the Karaoke running late?  I did speak to the fact that some competitions, in general, run long.  :?:  I actually didn't even know it ran late because I came in late for it in the first place.  But thanks for the run down i guess.

Regarding auditions (mira):

Plenty of people don't like running the risk of not being accepted, but I wonder if these same people would retain their opinions if they could confirm that they'd get cut out of a future competition because 5 entrants got in line a few minutes before them.

To me, it's all a matter of who you have to say "no" to. Yes, someone will always be majorly disappointed, even if future auditions were to become much more organized and accurate than they were for 2004, and alternately even if we switch to first-come-first-serve.  But I sincerely hope we can avoid making people feel "wronged."

I figure that if you aren't accepted then there is the open mike and such to go sing at.   I don't mean to be harsh but for a competition people are going to judge you.  I see auditions as just a pre-competition competition. *shrug* I don't disagree with anything you are saying and I don't understand how what I said resulted in this reply.  Did you perhaps confuse me with someone else?

I hope you can avoid making people feel "wronged" too.  My comments were merely supporting the idea of auditions as a means to improve the show.  Even with the kinks (and I'm very sorry to hear about how tough it was for the whipped cream group, that really stinks) I think having auditions was the way to go.  To avoid confusion and such procedures and rules should be laid out well in advance (maybe they were this year, I don't know?) so people know exactly what they are signing up for should avoid any "wronged" feelings.

[Daystar]

hi, i didnt have the time required to read all these posts so if i restate somthing then i apologize ahead of time, i voted in favor of the auditions because as a part of the audiance it was nice haveing a show where everyone sang well, and i must mention that there was the open mic for people who just wanted to sing as well as the karaoke room which ran for a while. however if you are going to hold auditions i think out of respect for the people auditioning you should give them the chance to sing the whole song...

there was a group of naruto cosplayers who wanted to do karaoke and didnt make it, they had a big fan dance planned during the middle... but the auditions were cut off before they even got a chance to show you and that is just not right, so... yes auditions for when there are other forms of karaoke for people to do, but give people a chance to show you their stuff...

thanks for reading,
from,
Ed-San the wolf girl-Nausicaa-Da Anime Fan-Marie...
dude i got a boken!

[Radien]

mira:

Oh, you were commenting on theoretical lateness of the show, not the actual lateness which did occur?... Whoops. :oops:

I also have to apologize for the way in which I tend to reply: people seem to frequently mistake it for being defensive, because I take a very involved, conversational approach to feedback. If people want to know why something was the way it was, I'll tell them so they can judge the reason(s) for themselves.

There are other things I haven't mentioned yet because nobody's asked. Basically, I'll tell you whatever I know for sure about my area or anybody else's, unless staff tells us not to talk about it. (and so far that hasn't applied to many topics) Who knows; maybe someone will decide they can do it better and come offer to run next year's karaoke...

Daystar:

Well, if you think about it, letting everyone sing their entire song would make the auditions last longer than the contest itself... 2 1/2+ hours; that's a long time for judges to sit listening to auditions. 8O

Really, in all honesty, you don't need that long to audition a performer. Some people made a fair argument that performers should be allowed to fast forward to the best part of their song (i.e. the dance number), and that was allowed; I just didn't get word of the idea in time to pass it on to all of the performers.

As for the Naruto group, there was actually a whole score of miscommunications underlying their problems with the karaoke audition, most of which I didn't understand until we talked about it at length in this thread. You don't have to read the whole thing, but just know that it's been addressed.

[EcchiSpice]

Yeah! My two cents!   Okay, so the contest was long, I agree. But you figure 5 minutes a song, times the 22? who performed - somewhere along the way it got longer than anyone could have predicted. As for auditions, I am whole heartedly for them. Any one who was doing a sing along with a skit element could have done well to enter the cosplay competition. "Ninjas of the Night" (which was FANTASTIC) was just such a skit, though it was sort of a lipsynch. Still the idea was the same AND they won a prize for their venture.

If you weren't interested in winning a prize, just in having fun, then maybe the 'competition' wasn't the right place to showcase your hard work anyway.
I don't mean any of this in a mean way at all. Its just a suggestion to make everyone's experience better next year.

Sailor Naboo made a great suggestion of splitting the kareoke into categories in another thread. I suggest people check it out. Separating out the purist Japanese kareoke from the "well my character would sing this song" kareoke might offer everyone a chance to have some fun on stage.

However, this may also add to the general confusion which was kareoke this year.

As for the whole "it had to be Japanese" thing... I sang a song in English that came from an anime. So did a couple others. And I don't think any of us had a true kareoke track to work with. We all had tracks with a vocal fader, which worked better on some tracks than others. I guess in a way, we were all doing sing along.    :roll:

[SailorNaboo]

Sailor Naboo made a great suggestion of splitting the kareoke into categories in another thread. I suggest people check it out. Separating out the purist Japanese kareoke from the "well my character would sing this song" kareoke might offer everyone a chance to have some fun on stage.

However, this may also add to the general confusion which was kareoke this year.

Why, thank you!  I already commented a bit in the other thread, but it's nothing that clear communication up front with rules available way in advance on the web wouldn't sort out.

We already have a new webmaster and we are just waiting until the Directors have been elected (and we change web hosts) to really get in there and work.

As I've mentioned in other posts, I'm running for Director of Programming, and I will be requiring first drafts of event rules from the event coordinators way in advance so we have time to tweek them and have them on the web as far in advance as possible.  It's my goal to have complete rules and even early signups ready and on the web at least 3 months before the start of the convention for all Major events.  (There will be information available before that, of course).

Beth Wickel
Director of Operations Candidate

[Ruriko]

Hello!

I intend to try out/participate in kareoke next year.  ^_^  As a first timer, the idea of audtitions is a bit...well....daunting.  I've sang before, so I can carry a tune, and I have a song picked out that will go with all the rules and such that has already been stated here.

I voted for Mixed Feelings, because I see the Pro's on each side (Audtions: Only the best, shorter contest. No Auditions: No cuts, less hurt feelings.) and the Cons as well (Audtitions:  Cuts.  Pouty unhappiness to follow thru the rest of the Con.  No Auditions:  Butt numbingly long Contest.).  

Where I'd like to be assured that I would get in to play and sing, as I intend to work on my costume for this for quite some time, and the costume will primarily be for *this* song...I suppose it is fair that everybody get an equal chance to get in...

*sigh*

My only suggestion would be:  Next year, if you do have auditions, please recruit more judges for the Auditions, and different judges who havn't heard the songs yet for the competition.  Three judges may have been hard to rope into this for the auditions, but I think it'd make more people happy and provide a more rounded vote.  

The purpose of changing out judges for the actual contest (I don't know if you did this or not...I was at the contest, but I was a ways back..*pout*) would only be to provide a (hopefully?) new and unbiased opinion on the song...Don't know if this makes any sense, but it's an idea.  I wasn't in the competition this year, so I have no real beef with anybody, I just want it to be shiny when next years participants sign up.

-ko

p.s.-- On a lighthearted note, I also think a bull-horn or some sort of stungun is in order to get people's attention....(On second thought, maybe the stungun would be abused.....)  >_>  I swear, if Kareoke was as bad as the Cosplay, It's no wonder things ran late.   ^_~

[Waffles]

few question did anbody go to the open mic thing yes no?? well ok hmm i m just wondering

[Radien]

Ruriko:

Well, I already went through the reasons we ran late, so just remember it's not due to any one thing. (unless that one thing is me >_> )

People will either be cut or the line for signup will be cut off, so there will be disappointments regardless, but it'll be a different kind of disappointment/frustration depending on which we do.

Auditions have no effect on contest length. We'll have an entrant cap either way.

Actually, switching out judges is to be avoided, just because one person may tend to rate high while the other tends to rate low. They may be judging perfectly fairly in a relative sense, but only relative to their own other scores. If we had more judges, we'd just have more period, rather than switch any of them out.

By the way, Lizzie was switched out because she had to go participate in the Anime Dating Game, a fact which slipped my attention amidst the chaos.

[SailorNaboo]

One way around that (one judge scoring to high) is to not add the judges scores but to add the rankings.  That way if out of 100, one judge gives one performer a 99 and the rest no higher than a 50, it won't matter at all.  The person who got the 99 gets a 1st place and then the next highest gets a second place...and so on.  Then you all up all the places and the lowest number wins.  

It makes it so all the judges have equal influence.

[Ruriko]

Wasn't trying to be pushy, just stating an idea.    Not trying to point fingers either.  Something is never only one persons' fault.  I rather liked watching the contest this year.  

Please have patience with us though, the majority of us don't have the slightest clue about how you do such things.  ^_^

I'm sure things'll end up wonderful.

-ko