Homophobia in Otakudom (09)

[murder_of_raven]

This panel idea was suggested to me by RemSaverem and has recieved a bit of positive response on the "2008 Reviews!" thread so I figured I'd start a Topic and see if enough people are interested. If people like the idea I'll fill out a submission forum .

So basically I was thinking of a place for people to talk about homo/transphobia experiences at conventions. I also was thinking of talking about homophobia within manga/anime itself. Anybody have any thoughts or suggestions? Would they be interested in attending?

[TanisNikana]

I haven't encountered any myself. It was kind of strange.

[BlackjackGabbiani]

Very good topic. However, could it be broadened to general bigotry? Because there's a lot of racism among anime/anime fans as well, and most of that isn't even noticed. Like if a girl asks who she looks like, and the girl is black, everyone says Anthy even though a--the girl may look nothing like Anthy and b--Anthy isn't black anyway, she's more Indian. Granted that's not RACISM OMG but it's more pigeonholing, especially given that most Americans who cosplay anime characters are white rather than Japanese or even any sort of Asian.


But yes, a lot of yaoi fans have noticed homophobia even in our own ranks, fetishizing it and demonizing people who really *are* gay. It happens in yuri as well, and that's even more ingraned.

Another thing that gets me is hetphobia. I mean seriously, we ALL came from het unless you were born in a lab (even test tube babies are the result of het SOMETHING).

[TanisNikana]

Very good topic. However, could it be broadened to general bigotry? Because there's a lot of racism among anime/anime fans as well, and most of that isn't even noticed. Like if a girl asks who she looks like, and the girl is black, everyone says Anthy even though a--the girl may look nothing like Anthy and b--Anthy isn't black anyway, she's more Indian. Granted that's not RACISM OMG but it's more pigeonholing, especially given that most Americans who cosplay anime characters are white rather than Japanese or even any sort of Asian.


But yes, a lot of yaoi fans have noticed homophobia even in our own ranks, fetishizing it and demonizing people who really *are* gay. It happens in yuri as well, and that's even more ingraned.

Another thing that gets me is hetphobia. I mean seriously, we ALL came from het unless you were born in a lab (even test tube babies are the result of het SOMETHING).

Come to think of it, folks were trying to get me to kiss other guys...

[murder_of_raven]

Hmm... well I certainly wouldn't be opposed to adding racism to the discussion, but as a bisexual transgender white girl I don't really have much experties there. If somebody wanted to partner with me and people didn't think it would be too off-topic (which I don't think it is) I'd totally be cool with changing the panel to something like "Bigotry, Otakus, and YOU". Thoughts?

Okay so actually, I put some thought into it and I was more thinking of something to the effect of an LGBTQQ meet-up with an agenda based around good/bad convention experiences. If somebody wanted to have a panel that was contiguous (starting right before or right after) based on bigotry in general I'd be totally up to helping, but honestly I'm not sure what anybody could do but "wow that sucks, bad bigots!" XD which I can do right here on the forums if anybody wants me to.

Oh and in reference to something posted by Blackjack I must agree, Anthy is /not/ black, she is most definately Indian. However all the best Anthy cosplayers I've seen have certainly been black girls... I took a picture of one this year who did an /awesome/ job... :\ I wish I could run into an actually Indian Akio next year at the cons. /Utena fangirling

[Winfred]

Yah, a general look at bigotry would be vurry good, so we can touch on all types of bases and feel complete. I've always wanted to really find out why people love to hate furries so much. They're just people dressed as animals, guys! Eesh. Anyhoo, I'll totes go to this!

Edit: Oh! Well I guess a LGBTQQ meet-up would be cool too!

[RemSaverem]

I informed our yahoo group of this potential panel. I believe everyone should feel equally welcome within the con community. Sometimes people claim they have some kind of right to some kind of bias based on some kind of religion. I imagine my diction there indicates how much I believe that to be abusive. Obviously I care about people's religious freedom too or I wouldn't be on the Religion in Anime and Manga panel. However my personal bias is I find it difficult to believe that there could be any valid reason within a religion to justify any form of bias, bigotry, or exclusion. To me that's a slippery slope that leads to genocide (my family's Jewish and my Gramma may she rest in peace had to hide from a Pogrom which was a pre-Nazi-era anti-Semitic murderous mob).

[Schlofin]

I agree this would be a very good panel. The bigotry is fine with me or even homophobia as I personally experienced it at this years KCon from staff. Yes I am a Gay White Guy so other than homophobia I do not have a lot to contribute but I would love to see this be a panel next year and I think we really need to show a true point to those in charge next year that this is B******t and we are not going to put up with it any more!
All right my rant is over.

[Rathany]

I agree this would be a very good panel. The bigotry is fine with me or even homophobia as I personally experienced it at this years KCon from staff. Yes I am a Gay White Guy so other than homophobia I do not have a lot to contribute but I would love to see this be a panel next year and I think we really need to show a true point to those in charge next year that this is B******t and we are not going to put up with it any more!
All right my rant is over.

Those in charge of what?  The con?  The country?  Please be specific.  As an '08 exec I would never have allowed tolerence of any homophobia, transphobia, bigotry, etc.  at ANY level of power at the con. 
As for attendees, we can't exectly do a quick bigot test at registration.  People taking the initiative to have lots of meetups and gay/bi/poly/trans/genderqueer/etc panels at our convention would help make it really clear to everyone what the vastly prevailing feeling of the convention is. 

I understand your anger, but in the case of this con, I don't think that it's TPTB who are causing the problem.  Though, we could be doing more to fix it. 

[Schlofin]

I agree this would be a very good panel. The bigotry is fine with me or even homophobia as I personally experienced it at this years KCon from staff. Yes I am a Gay White Guy so other than homophobia I do not have a lot to contribute but I would love to see this be a panel next year and I think we really need to show a true point to those in charge next year that this is B******t and we are not going to put up with it any more!
All right my rant is over.

Those in charge of what?  The con?  The country?  Please be specific.  As an '08 exec I would never have allowed tolerence of any homophobia, transphobia, bigotry, etc.  at ANY level of power at the con. 
As for attendees, we can't exectly do a quick bigot test at registration.  People taking the initiative to have lots of meetups and gay/bi/poly/trans/genderqueer/etc panels at our convention would help make it really clear to everyone what the vastly prevailing feeling of the convention is. 

I understand your anger, but in the case of this con, I don't think that it's TPTB who are causing the problem.  Though, we could be doing more to fix it. 

Well lets start with those in charge of the con, and we can move onward from that... But the issues I personally experienced were from a few Yojimbo's guarding the 18+ panel doors and one or two of the higher ups. For the most part if I gave my partner a quick peck on the con floor we got more cheers from attendees than negitive comments.

[BlackjackGabbiani]

Do you remember who they were or what they looked like?

[Schlofin]

Unfortunately the Yojimbo's I am not sure who they were I just know they were the ones staffed on the second floor during the Yaoi Panel on Saturday night and the History of Yaoi Panel on Sunday. I know the main higher up was the Con-Chair during the charity auction who seemed rather disturbed that I won one of the dates with Johnny from the Slants which I just bid on to give money to the charity and gave the date to the maid who wanted that date, once he heard that I gave up the date he seemed rather relieved. I just got the feeling that he did not like the idea of a male winning the date but maybe it was Johnny feeling uncomfortable not positive on which way that was going. That is about all I can remember.

[BlackjackGabbiani]

Then this Johnny should suck it up and accept that the bidding was open to everybody.

[Hazuza]

Then this Johnny should suck it up and accept that the bidding was open to everybody.

He /did/ suck it up. He went with it, didn't he? =/

If you were going to go on a date with a random person who you didn't really like all that much, (regardless of gender) you'd be slightly uneasy as well.

*offtopic rant over*

_{Edited twice because I'm bad at wording things =w=}

[xxxchihiroxxx]

my question is would this be an 18+ event?

[murder_of_raven]

my question is would this be an 18+ event?

No, absolutely not. Honestly, I dislike the tendency to put an 18+ on all LGBTQ related events... and honestly I don't want to hear about people's 18+ LGBTQ related con experiences XD. But seriously, I really would not like to alienate teen LGBTQs, being one this year (tho next year I'll be 18+)

[xxxchihiroxxx]

yay :3 then i will be able to attend!

[murder_of_raven]

yay :3 then i will be able to attend!

Oh good news! ^___~ Well it'll be at least you and me then, aye?

[Electronic Pony]

I would be very interested in attending this panel and think that it is an excellent idea, Raven! You can count me in!

[murder_of_raven]

I would be very interested in attending this panel and think that it is an excellent idea, Raven! You can count me in!

Double yay! In this case I'll be writing up a description as soon as I get around to it (school starts today though so it could be a few days) so you guys can see it before I officially submit it.

[Teepet]

So's this like an anime con GSA?  GSA's good stuff, haha.  This year I didn't actually attend any events, but this one actually sounds pretty interesting.

[xxxchihiroxxx]

yay :3 then i will be able to attend!

Oh good news! ^___~ Well it'll be at least you and me then, aye?

and of course many others :3

[Winfred]

yay :3 then i will be able to attend!

Oh good news! ^___~ Well it'll be at least you and me then, aye?

and of course many others :3

But of course! I imagine the room overflowing, easily. Unless we get a real big room, but only maybe. ALSO let's make cool buttons for those who attend. And cookies! Oh man I'm exciting about it way too early.

[reppy]

So, I guess I'm out of the loop: who at Kumoricon is transgendered? It seems there's a pretty big population and this is a bit of a surprise, albeit a non-issue. I guess I just never noticed before? A person is a person to me, so I'm not going to get down on anyone for what makes them truly happy. However, I do wonder how I never noticed. Either I'm a) stupid or b) the transgendered population at Kcon passes very well.

[murder_of_raven]

So, I guess I'm out of the loop: who at Kumoricon is transgendered? It seems there's a pretty big population and this is a bit of a surprise, albeit a non-issue. I guess I just never noticed before? A person is a person to me, so I'm not going to get down on anyone for what makes them truly happy. However, I do wonder how I never noticed. Either I'm a) stupid or b) the transgendered population at Kcon passes very well.

Well remember the difference between transgender and transexual. Whereas a transexual is pursuing (albeit possibly very slowly) physical transformation, transgender is entirely a mental thing and some transgendered people don't actually feel the need to dress their mental genders, or are too embarassed to do so on a regular basis (I'd fall into that category). So methinks trans (both transexuals and transgender) are easy to either lump in with the crossplayers like yourself, or they pass so well nobody notices. I like to think I'm in the former but hell, who am I kidding?


And yes. It'll be something like a convention GSA. But perhaps with buttons. And if we can get away with it perhaps unofficial cookies. XD Which I will refer to as such.

[Teepet]

Haha because official cookies are really hard to get approved. 

[RemSaverem]

Some actually simply don't think in terms of gender at all. Not in the selection of their partners, and not in their conceptualization of themselves. I'd love to envision a world beyond gender. Anyone read Woman on the Edge of Time by Marge Piercy? (What can I say I used to teach Women's Studies 101 at a University...no really.)

There are also people who are intersexed, though those whom I know aren't involved in KC (but for example our old pirate LARP had an officer who was MTF and a friend who was intersexed). Intersexed used to be called hermaphrodite...basically biologically being both sexes at birth even if surgically "reassigned" to one gender or another shortly after birth.

Basically I think it all comes down to getting rid of false dichotomies. Folks who are bi (or pan) sexual dispel the myth that there are only two sexual orientations. Folks who are intersexed and trans(G or S) disprove the myth that there are only two genders. In this Western culture with Christianity as the prevailing influence there is a lot of black/white, right/wrong thinking. In Eastern cultures with Buddhism as a prevailing influence there are often more shades of gray along continua. Perhaps this is one of many reasons that we are blessed with manga and anime that have such fluid concepts of gender identity and sexual identity.

[Lily]

Assuming I attend next year and get reappointed as Con Suite Manager, I'd attend that panel in a heartbeat if I could find someone to cover the suite during that time. I missed the Yuri panel this year, and that was the one panel that I would have liked to get to. But Con responsibilities come first

Deena

[xxxchihiroxxx]

yay :3 then i will be able to attend!

Oh good news! ^___~ Well it'll be at least you and me then, aye?

and of course many others :3

But of course! I imagine the room overflowing, easily. Unless we get a real big room, but only maybe. ALSO let's make cool buttons for those who attend. And cookies! Oh man I'm exciting about it way too early.

I can make cookies : D

[Winfred]

yay :3 then i will be able to attend!

Oh good news! ^___~ Well it'll be at least you and me then, aye?

and of course many others :3

But of course! I imagine the room overflowing, easily. Unless we get a real big room, but only maybe. ALSO let's make cool buttons for those who attend. And cookies! Oh man I'm exciting about it way too early.

I can make cookies : D

I'LL MAKE BROWNIES. *highfive* Oh dang, best catered panel yet?!

[xxxchihiroxxx]

yay :3 then i will be able to attend!

Oh good news! ^___~ Well it'll be at least you and me then, aye?

and of course many others :3

But of course! I imagine the room overflowing, easily. Unless we get a real big room, but only maybe. ALSO let's make cool buttons for those who attend. And cookies! Oh man I'm exciting about it way too early.

I can make cookies : D

I'LL MAKE BROWNIES. *highfive* Oh dang, best catered panel yet?!

nice xD *high fives back* all the other panels will be green with envy!we will need milk though ._.

[Lily]

Or a case of ramune? <g>

[xxxchihiroxxx]

hmmm we could ask the uwaji stand if we could get a special deal if we baught a few cases.... : o

[Winfred]

YES, excellent! And I'll steal a dairy cow for milk if I have to! THIS WILL WORK.

So! Will there be any con games planned for this? For an opener and/or closer, that could be fuuuuun.

[xxxchihiroxxx]

xD Ok I'm making cookies, Winfred is making brownies, and we are stealing a cow for milk

and hmm games are a good idea ._.

[Lily]

So...back to a semi-serious section of this topic...

I think there should be designated safe space at Con...or at least a place of refuge that "family" knows about. If I do Con Suite next year, I'd be willing to let that be the place, if the directors don't veto it. Not as a hang-out, mind you. But if safe space is truly needed in a situation, that could be an option. 

[xxxchihiroxxx]

Hmm that could be a very good idea, also if we get any abuse from any homophobic staff perhaps we should have a way to contact whos in charge of the staff about it?

[BlackjackGabbiani]

There ought to be a way to report *any* abuse to the higher-ups. If there isn't, that's really a strange omission.

And ideally, shouldn't *all* the con be a designated safe space?

[Rathany]

If you have any complaint and don't know where to go, go to the Chair or the Vice Chair.  Just choose whichever you are more comfortable talking to. 

[Lily]

No doubt there is an official way to report any incidents. I'm not an exec, I don't know what it is.

And yes, in a perfect world, all the con should be safe space. But staff can't and shouldn't have to police attendees' every remark, ya know?

There ought to be a way to report *any* abuse to the higher-ups. If there isn't, that's really a strange omission.

And ideally, shouldn't *all* the con be a designated safe space?

[Serika]

Um.  If I go next year, I will definitely attend this.  If I have a booth, I will abandon my booth to attend this. 

I think it's fairly important for people to understand the difference between yaoi/yuri in manga and real life gay relationships... I've experienced a lot of homophobia, not necessarily targetted at me or anyone in particular, from yaoi fans and I just can't understand this at all. 

One quick note... You tend to see in anime/manga male characters pinning done other men in a fight or something, and then others see and misunderstand this situation and blah blah blah you know the drill.  Would we be talking about this at all?  One or two times it's funny, but after awhile it just starts to feel like poking fun at the possibility that two men might be gay, even if they're not. 

[BlackjackGabbiani]

I think that would happen in het more often if there were more mixed-gender fights shown, but there's still that stigma of men fighting women (disregarding how powerful the woman is or how much combat training she's had, which I think is considerably more sexist than showing a guy fighting her, since it removes all consideration of her strength and looks only at her sex, but I digress). But anyway, I think that's why it seems exclusively male/male.

[Serika]

If you're responding to me, my bigger issue is that two men can't be within three feet of eachother without being gay... And also, since it's a humorous situation, I can easily imagine a guy questioning his sexuality being more reluctant to be honest with himself or at least think it over logically since gay scenes in "normal" anime are usually just for comedy value.

[reppy]

OK, so I don't know if it's really been discussed in-depth but what is the main focus of this event? For instance, would a straight person visiting find it captivating or ..?  The prospect of cookies and milk has me intrigued. 

[murder_of_raven]

My plan for the "main focus" is con-stories related to the LGBTQ community, and to a lesser extent anime stories. I also would like to talk about the difference between yaoi/yuri and real life homosexuality, homo/transphobia within anime, and LGBTQ people in the anime industry (I'll be bringing in a few Plica strips, for those of you who are unfortunate enough not to have read it).

[xxxchihiroxxx]

what really makes me mad sometimes isnt as much the homophobie, but sometimes the yuri fans want you to fanservice for them...

a boy once asked if i would let him take a picture of me and my girlfriend making out if he gave me 20 bucks... i found that just insulting. D:

sometimes the male Yuri fans see lesbian/bi girls as a chance for their real life hentai and I find that just as offensive as homophobia. also is it me or are yaoi fans actualy more homophobic of lesbian/bi girls than they are of gay/bi guys?

[murder_of_raven]

what really makes me mad sometimes isnt as much the homophobie, but sometimes the yuri fans want you to fanservice for them...

a boy once asked if i would let him take a picture of me and my girlfriend making out if he gave me 20 bucks... i found that just insulting. D:

sometimes the male Yuri fans see lesbian/bi girls as a chance for their real life hentai and I find that just as offensive as homophobia. also is it me or are yaoi fans actualy more homophobic of lesbian/bi girls than they are of gay/bi guys?

Actually sexual objectification is certainly a form of homophobia, and I'm sure we'll talk about at in the panel. And yes, guys like that piss me off just as much as girls like that (and yes I've /watched/ gay couples paid to make-out in front of yaoi fans).

And I'd really like to keep from making generalizations about anybody, even homophobic people. But personally I have interacted more with sexual objectification than actual homophobia when it comes to people who openly describe themselves as yuri/yaoi fans.

[xxxchihiroxxx]

huh I see... ._.

I find it kinda sad that some people would demote to making out with their partner in front of others for a bit of money or something ): It's degrading and I'm insulted that some people think we wouldnt mind because we kiss our partners anyways....

Oh well this well be an interesting (and aprently well catored) panel :3

[murder_of_raven]

huh I see... ._.

I find it kinda sad that some people would demote to making out with their partner in front of others for a bit of money or something ): It's degrading and I'm insulted that some people think we wouldnt mind because we kiss our partners anyways....

Oh well this well be an interesting (and aprently well catored) panel :3

Well I think some homosexual couples feel that kumoricon is the only time that they're idolized instead of looked down upon. But yeah, it weirds me out too though

XD lol and yes, apparantly it will be.

[Deviant Spider]

what really makes me mad sometimes isnt as much the homophobie, but sometimes the yuri fans want you to fanservice for them...

a boy once asked if i would let him take a picture of me and my girlfriend making out if he gave me 20 bucks... i found that just insulting. D:

Its also a form of prostitution/solicitation. For the record.