Author Topic: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!  (Read 41714 times)

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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #150 on: November 07, 2008, 11:36:46 am »
I'm not even going to bother with anything I consider to be hype, tripe, or too immature (referring to the tenor of the post, not to the age of the poster), or uninformed or exaggerated to bother to respond to in type.

I'm really loving this pinky show thing and wonder who puts it on, and plan to watch a lot more of it, that's so far one of the real highlights of having been on this forum for all these years, is finding out about that.

For about a decade I was on the board of a national pacifist/anti-militarist organization (and still am the copy editor of its hip-hop magazine). Every Tax Day we present a Pie Chart that documents that generally over 1/2 of every tax dollar goes to present military expenses, past military expenses, and the astronomical interest on the national debt that is predominantly brought about by the military expenses. Comparatively tiny fractions remain to be allocated across everything that means the most to the majority of people in the world: education, health care, environmental protection.......

Meantime if anyone gets NPR, presently there's a discussion about Obama's transition process. I'm not entirely sure, but my boss thought maybe there's a press conference soon in which Obama will talk about his meetings with economic advisors? Try KLCC online if you're not by a radio.

PS Even if you don't want to look at any particular piece of military hardware as obsolete or as overkill, remember what Obama so rightly brought up in his informercial, asking folks at the town hall how many new schools could've been opened, new hospitals opened, new folks insured, college tuitions sponsored, etc., with the, what is it now? $82 million? spent each, what, week? in Iraq? For what? For Bechtel and Halliburton (the VP's pet project and funding source)? While Iraq has how many millions or billions in surplus and we're in economic meltdown?

Uh, yeah. It's so obvious.......
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 12:01:08 pm by RemSaverem »
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Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #151 on: November 07, 2008, 03:30:02 pm »
@Mustash
we still have ICBM and submarine launched nuclear weapons.  There is also the fact that the B-2 is so expensive that both Democrats and Republicans had felt it was too expensive for it can do.  It may have been needed during the Cold War, but in today's enviroment, I don't believe it is.

@RemSaverem
Hoping you could clarify, but do you mean the military expenses as whole(the entire budget), or its operations around the globe(wars or peacekeeping)?

Speaking of Obama and the military, could you give me your persective on Obama's comment in this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwaAVJITx1Y
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #152 on: November 07, 2008, 04:56:47 pm »
The B-2 question, how long do you think the B-52's (bombers not the band) can keep flying? Buffs are already 50 years old. Put one way, they were flying BEFORE man walked on the moon. Anyone stroll up there lately?

MAD was a policy only with the Soviet Union. We currently do not have a MAD policy, as there are NO other countries which can destroy us utterly as the good ol' CCCP could have done.

Sorry, I do not have time to watch a video. "Pinky" does not sound a credible source to base my opinions. I may as well go to "Brain." The one a genius, the other insane!

Here's the rub. No one gets it all his/her way here. Not unless enough people voted that way, and guess what, they didn't this time either! McCain got more votes than almost anyone in history. Obama, just set the new record of total votes for a candidate. The senate is not fillibuster proof. Senator Reid will not be able to do all he wants without help from Republicans. He is just a couple of senators short.

Right now, I think an awful lot of things are going to be put on hold, military and otherwise thanks to the economy. And no, I won't bother placing blame. I think it is time to find ways to make America better, no matter whom you voted for. Republicans can get back in the game if they show they can do better, but won't if all they can do is complain and finger point.

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Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #153 on: November 07, 2008, 11:21:17 pm »
We do need our B2 Stealth Bombers.

There is this little thing called M.A.D, Mutual Assured Destruction. It means that if one person in the world launches a nuke then pretty much all the nukes in the world fly and we're all dead. Many people think we're not in a cold war anymore but they are wrong.

If we let up on our defenses or decommission all of our nukes that makes us a very tasty target for many countries out there. The B2 is part of our defenses. Other countries won't attack us when they don't know where any of our stealth bombers are at any given time.
We already have let up on our defense.  The US is the only super power that does not have the capacity refine plutonium.  We decided to take plants down for safety upgrade and then moth ball them.

That being said, I guess we'll see if Obama wants to put money into Nuclear Recycling as we are spending so much on storing it, ya'd think that we'd be able to inovate enough to turn the waste into carbon emission free generation.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 11:27:06 pm by melchizedek »
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Offline StarryShay

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #154 on: November 07, 2008, 11:28:18 pm »
Obama won.
I know, right?
All my teachers keep saying. "Waah, Mccain should have won."
Wtf...

Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #155 on: November 07, 2008, 11:42:54 pm »
Teacher for Mccain?  Something fishy about your school.
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Offline allstarsniper32

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #156 on: November 08, 2008, 12:10:18 am »
@ Mr_Mustash:
We wouldn't need this so-called defense if we didn't always piss people off. The world does not need any forms of weapons, correction, humans shouldn't have any forms of weapons. We've shown, probably countless times that we are incapable of handling our "defensive" weapons. Maybe instead of building something that can kill millions of lives we could build something that will actually protect millions of lives.

@Jaybug:
I understand a lot of people wouldn't take anything a talking cat would say seriously at all, but I think it's better to completely listen to someone's opinions(Pinky does state facts). Pinky does what she does because she wants people to know what really happened with certain issues.

as for more recent posts, teachers for McCain does sound fishy to me as well.

Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #157 on: November 08, 2008, 12:11:43 am »
I don't see whats wrong with teachers supporting Mccain.  but I do have wonder why they're expressing their personal views to their students..........
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Offline StarryShay

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #158 on: November 08, 2008, 12:45:46 am »
I keep telling them they're going to get fired. xD
But unfortunetly, I have a smal lschool, ad we're to short on staff to fire anyone.
Blaergh.

Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #159 on: November 08, 2008, 02:53:51 am »
as another point in favor of the military, its large navy and air transport assets aid in humanitarian operation which was particularly the case in the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake.  Germany had tried to lease Antonov transport, but none were available and had to resort to leasing C-17 transports.

as for possible hotspots, Israel's right to exist is disputed in many places(I even heard someone called for it to be disolved like the Soviet Union while in Portland once), particually by Iran and other Arabs.
China has repeatly expressed its willingness to use force to retake Taiwan.
North Korea is a wild card that could threaten South Korean, Japan, and the Western coast of the US.

To clarify my position, I'm not saying we just use the military, but rather as a last resort when diplomacy, waiting, or another peaceful option is nonworkable.
Personally, I disagree with Europe's position that the military should never be an option, but then I also be discontent with many conservatives who are too quick to resort to the military option.
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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How 'bout a "Safe harbor" meet-up / come-out meeting
« Reply #160 on: November 08, 2008, 07:04:18 am »
... for political minorities at Kumoricon?

Quote from: Seraph
thats why I'm usually weary of discussing politics.  sometimes I'm worried that mobs will form and attack me if I mention my political leanings.

As for weapons, my wife told me that one local Portland guns store sold TWO PALLETS of .223 ammunition since the election.

Lastly, most of the people who call for universal or unilateral disarmament ("The world does not need any forms of weapons, correction, humans shouldn't have any forms of weapons...") often raise a 'security force' to enslave the disarmed. One of my uncles escaped the Bolshevik revolution of 1917.

Me, I'm worried about recent news abotu the Dems going after 401(k) funds. I've been saying for 5 yrs that once the Boomers retire, having never saved much, overspent on bigger houses than they needed, and wasted on consumer toys, jet boats, etc, they will now be looking to loot those who WERE saving for retirement. They'll call it "Sharing."

As in: "YOU prepared, but THEY didn't and so YOU need to SHARE with them now."

So I put in less into tax-deferred stuff like 401(k) and so that I could build up at least some savings tax-paid Roth IRAs. It will be harder for "them" to raid the stuff I've already paid taxes on. That and beating down a 30yr mortgage down to about seven years. Watching the principal go down is like seeing the light at the end of a long tunnel draw closer. The banks keep sending offers to re-borrow against that equity, and I just ignore it.

My grandfather was a pharmacist in the 1930s; back in the 'real' Depression. He owned the building, and he was paying an extra $100 a month on his business mortgage, sometimes more. One day, the bank manager came out to meet him with his hat in his hands and said, "Would you please STOP doing that?"

If you haven't read them, here are two books to prepare for socialism run amok:
(1) "Atlas Shrugged," by Ayn Rand, a Soviet emmigrant - If you are now doing a job where you generate much valure and therefore get paid much more than the schlubs on the receiving end of all the government handouts, and you lose that job, the next job you should get should be one in which you only create the same or little more than the welfare level. Or cut you hours WAY back, so that you work two days a week at a brilliant, lucrative job, but have only the same taxable income as the welfare-level worker. If everybody starts doing this, then the 'excess' for the government to redistribute dwindles quickly. It is an effective way of 'going on strike' and collapsing socialism. This was how the USSR was eventually collapsed from within.

(2) "The Gulag Archipelago" by Alexandr Solzhenitzen - What to do if B. Hussein's 'citizen security force' gets you. Basically, if government-control thugs haul you away for 'not sharing' with the proletariat, or for being 'politically incorrect,' (= political dissident in the USSR?)  it's not really about you. It's to scare the people they leave behind. The sooner you get past the notion that you're already 'gone' and never coming back, the better for you. The purpose is to terrorize your spouse and family, colleages at work, your neighbours, and your friends who knew you. One arrest terrorizes 25 people or more.

Batten down the hatches and prepare for heavy weather.
"No quarter! "
« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 04:11:23 pm by Prinz Eugen »

Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #161 on: November 08, 2008, 08:50:27 am »
I don't see whats wrong with teachers supporting Mccain.  but I do have wonder why they're expressing their personal views to their students..........

Compleatly! I remember 3 elections when I was in School and the teachers were more than happy to discuss politics for extra credit. *If you watched the debates=extra credit etc.* But all of my teachers kept their personal feelings out of their work. They would play devils advocate with us and explain both sides. I remember teachers work strikes, but never something like teachers complaining about who our new president was...
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #162 on: November 08, 2008, 11:03:17 am »
*shrug*  I was only joking, really I'm happy that there are schools that teachers can speak freely and not loose their jobs.
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Offline TanisNikana

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #163 on: November 08, 2008, 11:25:26 am »
Obama won.

Offline makichan

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #164 on: November 08, 2008, 11:29:55 am »
Totally off-topic but I remember when we had a mini election in my elementary school (I was in first grade, I think). Most everyone voted for Bill Clinton like their parents did, but I voted for some guy that no one voted for. I thought he was very lonely without any votes xD
and I thought that it would cheer him up somehow if I voted for him. Haha.
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Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #165 on: November 08, 2008, 07:30:27 pm »
Totally off-topic but I remember when we had a mini election in my elementary school (I was in first grade, I think). Most everyone voted for Bill Clinton like their parents did, but I voted for some guy that no one voted for. I thought he was very lonely without any votes xD
and I thought that it would cheer him up somehow if I voted for him. Haha.

I totally remember a mock election in my grade school too! My parents arent political at all so I didnt know who to vote for and I voted for Clinton cause I liked his name. LOL. No real reason.

I had a bunch of friends that didnt want to vote for either president candidate this year so they voted for Nader. To each their own I guess. LOL
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Other Candidates
« Reply #166 on: November 08, 2008, 08:16:19 pm »
Quote from: Deviant Spider
I had a bunch of friends that didnt want to vote for either president candidate this year so they voted for Nader. To each [his] own I guess. LOL
I have watched R. Nader for close to 30yrs, and one thing you gotta hand to him is that he has stayed on-message. He has not flip-flopped on any major planks of his opinions afaik. So he gets major, major points in my book for consistency. OTOH his very socialist & greenie-weenie and obviously I disagree with him on many of his opinions

My personal favorites were Ron Paul and Duncan Hunter. Ron Paul is a profoundly knowledgable constitutionalist; for example he is in favor of reviving the use of letters of marque for situations where Congress knows 'something' needs to be done, but they don't want to actually declare war. Historical note: the engagements where the US has declared war (by Congress) have resulted in (a) vistory, and (b) a rise of US prestige in the world, and also the opposite: the undeclared 'so-called' wars have generally resulted in loss of US prestige and very little clear victory and honor to the troops deployed.

McCain seemed too soft on illegal immigration. We already did an amnesty in 1985, and 'we-the-people' were promised at that time that that was gonna be the LAST amnesty.  When the fresh young Repubs swept into office in 1994 (?) they started to tackle illegal immigration the right way but major contributors to the Repubs include folks like the Marriot family and Walmart, who 'leaned' on these youngsters and derailed their intentions.

Duncan Hunter was a total USA-first kind of guy. He would have done wonderful things for  individual American freedom, like booting the UN outta here and telling the EU "hey you guys, it one of YOUR guys' turn to host these parasites." Or something like that. He also would have scrapped a bunch of stupid liberalist gun laws, and generally rebuilt the good ol' USA in the guise of many of our traditional heroes like Daniel Boone, Robert E. Lee, Eli Whitney.** And if it's to war we must go, he'd have done it according to one of our most DEVASTATINGLY effective generals ever: William Tecumseh Sherman. THAT guy knew how to take WAR to an enemy, so that they NEVER want to mess with the US again for a few generations.

** Let me add Louis Temple as an great African-American inventor. He invented the toggle-head harpoon in 1848, which revolutionized American whaling till the industry dissipated in the 1920s. (Petroleum products displaced whale oils.)

- G

« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 08:45:44 pm by Prinz Eugen »

Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #167 on: November 08, 2008, 11:11:36 pm »
For the record, I have very mixed feelings on gun control. I've volunteered for a couple battered women's shelters. I believe the US has statistically higher rates of death from gun violence (both suicide and homicide) and from gun accidents (such as the 8 yr old who just killed his dad who'd taught him to shoot) than most other "Western" countries. My friend's boyfriend in childhood was shot dead in a gang context. Yet I grew up venerating the valiant men and women and youth who took up arms in defense of the Warsaw and Bialystock (Jewish) Ghettos (against the Nazis), the French Partisans and other members of the Resistance--even the Jewish Sondercommando who blew up the crematoria in the camps....

In other words, while I have intense fear of what folks can do deliberately and accidentally to hurt each other with guns, I also have this fear of 'what if only the government has the guns, and then the government goes bad' (or the local government is good but gets occupied by one that is bad), left over from having a gramma who at age 3 had to hide in a neighbor's attic from murderous anti-Semites......

I do not know Obama's take on gun control. Guy?
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Offline allstarsniper32

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #168 on: November 09, 2008, 12:32:22 am »
We wouldn't need this so-called defense if we didn't always piss people off.

Even if we disarmed ourselves completely and everyone in the world loved us there would be some crazy nation (most likely Russia because of Putin) that would get angry at us (or decide that they wanted to be better than us) and turn all of the United States into one big glass nuclear wasteland.

I wasn't talking about only us, and if we never used weapons in the wrong way, then we wouldn't have nuclear weapons. Like I've said before, hunting for food to survive is not the same as creating a weapon of mass destruction. Cultures have proved that humans can live harmoniously with nature, and humans have proved that a lot of us like killing the planet.


The world does not need any forms of weapons, correction, humans shouldn't have any forms of weapons. We've shown, probably countless times that we are incapable of handling our "defensive" weapons.

It was the invention of weapons that launched the growth of humanity. Without the first very basic weapons (basically rocks) humanity would not have been able to kill the animals to feed itself and grow. Then with the invention of black powder, and eventually the musket/rifle, we were able to expand more quickly and leap into rapid growth.

All of the humans in the world will never be able to get along. There's too much difference between cultures and religions, which is great, but someone will always be pissed off at someone. The UN was supposed to solve all world conflicts and so far it's hardly doing it's job.

Yes but the weapons invented back then weren't weapons, they were called hunting tools. Also, us as humans really don't need meat to survive, it just tastes good and happens to have some nutrients. If you are eating a steak and it doesn't have any red in it, then all of the nutrients are basically gone or insignificant. Personally, I think the planet would be better off without humans in it and sometimes, most of the time, I don't like people either.

Maybe instead of building something that can kill millions of lives we could build something that will actually protect millions of lives.

We do have things that will protect millions of lives. It's called the worlds most powerfull Army, Navy, and Air Force; along with NORAD, USSTRATCOM and all of their resources. The world is constant stalemate in an ongoing nuclear war. Even if we have "complete nuclear missile disarmament" around the world someone is bound to keep some hiding where no one can find them. And it's not really that hard to build a nuclear bomb, any college graduate with a batchelors degree in physics could be able to do. (You could even build one yourself! http://home.clara.net/nybbles/oldestuff/vik/nuke/index2.html)

I bet that if you look at how many times the army was deployed to help people it wouldn't come anywhere close to the amounts of times it's sent to kill. Armies aren't made to protect, they are made for war, you want protection you train guards, people who's jobs are to protect the community. You go to any country where our army has been and see how many times we've "helped". Have you ever thought that if we never had nuclear we wouldn't have nuclear problems? Therefore, we wouldn't be in a "nuclear stalemate" or have to worry about anyone hiding nuclear bombs that aren't disarmed. Also, no one would know how to build one.

On a more recent note, That's why I don't believe humans should ever get weapons, any humans. If any human uses "weapon" for anything other than procuring food for them self and their family, it's a wrong use of that "weapon". Is A M-16 made for getting food? I didn't think you needed to shoot a deer that many times to kill it. All we need is spears, but if we only had spears, we would still use them as weapons against other people, because humans cannot wield weapons and never use them against each other.

Offline Prinz Eugen

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On RKBA, again
« Reply #169 on: November 09, 2008, 05:33:24 am »
Quote from: guitarherolover32
Cultures have proved that humans can live harmoniously with nature, and humans have proved that a lot of us like killing the planet.
One source of differences in thought or opinion on RKBA (a handy forum abbreviation for 'Right to Keep and Bear Arms') is individuals' worldviews, especially the difference between those who believe that Man in his natural state is inherently good, vs, those who believe that he is morally neutral or inherently evil to a lesser or even a great degree. So, weapons seem unnecessary in the ideal to those who believe that We Are All One Nice Bunch of Folks Underneath it All.

Others believe differently: that any community of humans includes a subset who would rather sate their needs by using their force to take from others instead of using their force (and possibly brainpower) to create their own value and trade value for value to meet their wants and needs. This subset can be opposed by the general availability of effective, personal defensive arms as a 'great equalizer.'

One writer has remarked that in the course of history, until the invention and widespread possession of an effective deterrent, no one had much incentive to produce more than he (or his retenue) could personally defend. To do so would invite a visit by a knight errant who would TAKE, by force of arms - which was in medieval times the basis for the force of law, and even jurisprudence. If you disagreed with your King for example, you could challenge the King's Champion, beat him in armed combat, and that would make you 'right.' Losing would make you 'wrong,' and possibly a bit lighter of a few bodily parts as well.

The development of personal firearms led to a greater sense of the security to produce in abundance, to manage larger herds and wider tracts of land. A knight was someone who did not produce goods or foods for himself but instead trained for years to master the weapons of his day while being fed by other's labors. But suddenly technology changed and he could be felled by a black-powder pistol wielded by someone having had only a few hours' instruction and practice, and not a great deal of upper body strength.

Anyone notice that the 'droit du seigneur' also seemed to fall out of favour with the rise of personal firearms? Peasant farmers and 'the working class' could easily have grown weary of passing Big Boys on Horses physically abusing their sisters and daughters, and effective personal arms that anyone could learn to use well enough allowed even the lowliest to successfuly oppose that practice. Social change!

Quote from: guitarherolover32
Also, us as humans really don't need meat to survive, it just tastes good and happens to have some nutrients. If you are eating a steak and it doesn't have any red in it, then all of the nutrients are basically gone or insignificant.
Evolutionary history shows the largest increase in cranial capacity occurred in tandem with the switch from vegetarianism to meat eating. Compared to the mental skills for tool creation and use, and for observing, understanding, stalking, outsmarting, and overpowering critters that don't really intend to to be your dinner in the first place - it doesn't take much brain activity to sneak up on a PLANT. Then later, we got to use our bigger brains to invent vacuum tubes, transistors, and eventually gaming consoles!

Quote from: guitarherolover32
Personally, I think the planet would be better off without humans in
Others of us prefer to live this life, experiment and challenge our place and destiny here, and to exist, survive, and if we may: prevail. Your mileage may vary.

However when I examine your willingness to perish or preference not to have existed here, then expanded to your wish that none of us other folk have our chance at life, then would it seem sound to link your opinion on personal survival with your opinion on RKBA?

If one may do so, then it would seem that hoplophobia is a non-survival trait.

Quote
Is A M-16 made for getting food? I didn't think you needed to shoot a deer that many times to kill it.
Of course, arms are also used for sporting and there is time-worn pleasure in improving accuracy at a distance. This is as old as two kids designating any sort of target and contending with each other who can hit it from further away - whether with rocks, darts, arrows, or a 750gr .50cal bullet fired from 2 1/2 miles out... All of this is morally legitimate sporting. So is shooting cans and bottles with a kid's first BB gun or 22cal. (And there's just something I find about plinking that flat-out outranks recycling.) And full-auto fun at a target range or other safe landscape is simply exhilarating.

Additionally, many people have a collector's interest in acquiring historically significant baubles, regardless of need. You don't need an original Picasso painting on your wall either, but a few people of means will spend millions to get one for themselves. Other people have a similar interest in firearms which look like or work like the venerable tools taken into historically significant battles, and make a connection with history, and with men and deeds they may or may not know. To hold an original Muromasa sword and know (or imagine) what it has been through - that is akin to buying at great price, one of the few remaining, operational Vickers machineguns from WWI. Or six guys in Virginia who take out an original Civil War cannon once in a while to see it work. Or watching 'Jin Ro' and dropping $45,000 for a real German WW2 MG42. Other folks who don't want a full-auto M16 may try the semi-auto AR15, to acquire the look and feel of the battle weapon, but in single-shot only function, which is still useful for testing one's accuracy at distance.

Although personally I don't hunt, I understand the desire to hunt animals with a tool that can relieve the animal of undue suffering by means of (a) delivering enough power to kill it quickly, and (b) able to reload quickly enough, even by means of an auto-loading or semi-automatic mechanism, to deliver a second shot to dispatch a wounded animal. I don't think anyone seriously hunts with a fully-automatic firearm.

Quote
All we need is spears, but if we only had spears, ...
There are many intriguing stories (more in SF but also plenty in anime) which use arbitrary restrictions on weapons as part of the setting. The easy way is a time before their invention, or simply without mentioning them as occuring in society. Other settings use generally accepted laws - you might be interested in 'The Compact' in the Darkover books - a planetary law that banned any form of attack in which the attacker did not risk an equally lethal act of defence from his intended victim. This meant that not only projectile weapons were OUT (guns, crossbows, catapults, etc.) but so was POISON, for example. However you still have the problem of the criminal element who decides to uses these illegal things ANYWAY. (If you've already decided to break one set of laws against, say trespassing and stealing, why stop at refraining from 'illegal' weapons?)

My wife recently read a fantasy book where they never invented chemical propellant firearms, but instead, the technology they had was such that the firearm took 2 or 3 minutes to recharge between shots. (I haven't read it yet, but I'll start it today, actually.)

Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: OBAMA on Gun-Grabbing
« Reply #170 on: November 09, 2008, 05:53:19 am »
Quote from: RemSaverem
... I grew up venerating the valiant men and women and youth who took up arms in defense of the Warsaw and Bialystock (Jewish) Ghettos (against the Nazis).
To their great credit those brave individuals made the German professional soldiers look like complete fools. Urban combat by (or against) resistant, armed civilians, and how it differed from uniformed soldier vs. uniformed soldier in (cough, cough) 'civilized' combat, was nearly completely unknown at the time.

Quote from: RemSaverem
I do not know Obama's take on gun control. Guy?
Pretty grim:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Barack_Obama#Gun_control

Maybe that's why we're in a 'get 'em while you can' mode...

"After being elected as President, Obama has announced his support for reinstating the expired Assault Weapons Ban."
THIS would be a complete cluster-foxtrot, because during the 10-year ban, you had pre-ban high cap magazines and weapons, which sold at RIDICULOUS prices, and ban-compliant 10-rounders. Then the ban expired and you got post-ban high-caps again. (and the fell from $75 to about $10.) So, if you RE-ban, then how will you tell a legal, post-ban/pre-RE-ban part from a now-contraband part made after the RE-ban? Do you have a headache yet?

Also it seems that the Dems were only able to make political headway into the rural/ranching country by going quiet about gun bans. If BHO tries this stuff I bet there may be a backlash against Dems in the midterm 2010 election...

... and then we get OUR FAVORITE: Stalled government by one party in the White house and the other party in Congress -> more mickering instead of needed action. 1994 here we go again!

Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #171 on: November 09, 2008, 04:28:35 pm »
Some of you need to review world history a bit. Read Old Testament, say Samuel I and II. King David is about there. Talk about kill 'em all. And the Romans, whom, if they could not beat you, would sow your fields with salt, so that you would starve to death. They also invented decimation, arbitrarily killing one of every ten men, in order to pacify a place.

We should not take it for granted that just because most nations don't do these things, that all nations will not. There were rape camps in Bosnia. Which Europe did not wish to intervene in.

Also, look up at the Amish, and their belief of taking up arms.
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #172 on: November 09, 2008, 09:32:23 pm »
Guy: thanks for the details.
Whomever asked about the pie chart way back: I haven't forgotten you and will try to find details for you.
Those saying nuclear subs are safe: Did you see the headline today about the 20 people suffocated on a Russian nuclear sub today? It also mentioned a prior incidence in which like 100 people on another Russian nuclear sub died...and the sub sank....what exactly happens to the nuclear radioactive material when it sinks in the ocean? (NOT a rhetorical question!)
This is why New Zealand famously refused the US Navy access to New Zealand's waters when Reagan "would not confirm nor deny" the presence of nuclear weapons nor nuclear power thereupon. Which resulted in Reagan kicking NZ out of the ANZUS (Australia-New Zealand-US) Treaty. (I was there years back and met with the Rotorua Peace Society as part of a term paper on the Nuclear Free Aotearoa movement for my Sociology of Nuclear Proliferation class back in the day.) (Aoetaroa is the Maori name for NZ. Maori are the indigenous people of NZ.)
Today's article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081110/ap_on_re_eu/eu_russia_submarine
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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #173 on: November 09, 2008, 10:08:23 pm »
I'm sorry demon its just... I"m so in to politics.... This election ment a lot to me, we had full intentions to move to Australia had Obama lost. Also your witnising history.... this si the first black president.... your grand kids will be reading about this in school.

He is not the first black Preisdent.  He is the first President that has black heritage.  Remember, he's half white, so every time anybody refers to him as being black is denying half of who he is.

P. S. Either way, I'm just waiting to see how long it takes for him to screw something up, or until people realize how impossible some of his promises were.  Oh well, let's move forward for a better day!  ('Cause today isn't so great.)
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Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #174 on: November 09, 2008, 10:37:37 pm »
I'm sorry demon its just... I"m so in to politics.... This election ment a lot to me, we had full intentions to move to Australia had Obama lost. Also your witnising history.... this si the first black president.... your grand kids will be reading about this in school.

He is not the first black Preisdent.  He is the first President that has black heritage.  Remember, he's half white, so every time anybody refers to him as being black is denying half of who he is.

P. S. Either way, I'm just waiting to see how long it takes for him to screw something up, or until people realize how impossible some of his promises were.  Oh well, let's move forward for a better day!  ('Cause today isn't so great.)

True he is only half black but his apperance is what will make a statement to our minority groups. It would be the same with a half Korean president. He/She would still be an Asian minority.

Im willing to give anyone the chance to make things better. But I really really wish (No disrespect intended here) that people would stop focusing on the "He's Black! Yay Black President!" part and more on the "We have a new president! Yay for a new directon in politics!" I will be terribly upset if the only thing I hear about his presidency is his support for minorities, and not the change for the WHOLE country as promised. He needs to represent us all and not just one group. I hope to hear good things in the future.
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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #175 on: November 09, 2008, 10:41:29 pm »
I agree.  Irregardless of how much of him is black, let's not have that be an issue.  Let's see if he can do the job...
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #176 on: November 10, 2008, 04:26:01 pm »
Yo Remsaverem, isn't that why the French wanted to blow up the Greenpeace ship? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior You do know France is all about nukes, whether for power or protection.

Have you heard about any US nuclear powered ships having similar problems? I doubt it. I'd have to ask my boss or co-worker, except they can't talk about it. But I am sure you could read Tom Clancy and find out more than they would be allowed to tell me.

It is more radioactive in Denver than inside a nuclear power plant. Granite is radioactive, it comes from inside the earth where it picks up lots of radiation from decaying elements nearer the core. Think granite and altitude for increasing levels of radiation, which is why a long flight is like getting the equivalent of two chest X-rays.

So when does the left start whining about wind power off Cape Cod, again?
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #177 on: November 10, 2008, 05:46:19 pm »
Jay, I believe that when the French tried to blow up the Greenpeace ship it had to do with protests of nuclear testing in French Polynesian waters. If I recall correctly.
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Offline TanisNikana

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #178 on: November 10, 2008, 07:31:27 pm »
Obama won, necessary sentiments expressed, lock the thread.

Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #179 on: November 10, 2008, 08:17:56 pm »
Obama won, necessary sentiments expressed, lock the thread.

Tanis It has been decided by higher powers that this thread is open to discussion. Unless people feel personally attacked there is no reason to close the thread. It is in the spam area so educated debates are welcome as well. If people want to bandy information than there is nothing wrong with it.

*I talked to a couple Directors at the General meeting regarding this thread specifically. Just for clairification.*
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 09:09:07 pm by Deviant Spider »
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: Soviet Subs
« Reply #180 on: November 10, 2008, 09:02:45 pm »
Quote from: RemSaverem
Those saying nuclear subs are safe: Did you see the headline today about the 20 people suffocated on a Russian nuclear sub today? It also mentioned a prior incidence in which like 100 people on another Russian nuclear sub died...and the sub sank....what exactly happens to the nuclear radioactive material when it sinks in the ocean? (NOT a rhetorical question!)
Soviet-era military technology is generally scary, but II don't think that Soviet technology accidents cast a black eye on the technology as a whole. The French and Germans have had nuke-power at sea for decades as well. It's all in tthe design - what's considered important vs. what (or who) is considered expendable.

The Soviet Socialists (back on topic re BHO,) considered most criminals and political dissenters 'expendible.' Rather than invest in chip technology to develop industrial controllers (such as those made by Allen-Bradley Co.) for dangerous tasks, they just assign convicts to operate simplified manual controls. Need an automatic feedwater regulator for your reactor? Set up a valve and a gauge with green, yellow and red pie sectors on it, and pay an ex-con (or order a convict) to keep the needle in the green. You can also save on nuclear radiation shielding if the purpose is to exact capital punishment through radiation poisoning. The condemmed are sentenced to run these areas for about 18mo, then transferred to some other gawd-awful pit to break rocks. When their hair starts falling out it's blamed on the nasty, poisonous rocks. Remember there are no MSDS safety sheets or 'right to know' laws when Marx or Stalin names you expendable.

Soviet submarines have a nasty habit of cooking their reactors from time to time. One older design uses liquid sodium to cool the reactor core, which is then exchanged with liquid mercury - the liquids separate like oil and vinegar - which is then exchanged from mercury to sea water in another intercooler. Again, the mercury separates from the sea water. Here's where King Midas gets the last laugh though: Mercury lives right next door to gold on the periodic table. As it gets irradiated, some of it turns to gold, bit by bit. The solid gold bits thicken the inside surfaces of the pipes, like cholesterol and atherosclerosis - until enough of it jams the coolant pump impeller, and then, well, "life gets interesting..."


Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #181 on: November 11, 2008, 12:22:32 am »
@ deviant spider-- thanks for checking
@ execs & mods-- thanks for permitting
@ guy-- thanks for (painful, scary) details

It is not my contention that it would be impossible for the US military to construct some nuclear powered sub or something that would be, *comparatively speaking* safer than those in the past or those made by other countries (or made by us but purchased by other countries--if that does occur?).....Rather it is that what's out there already could be unsafe, and that the more the US utilizes a type of product, the less credibility it has to try to regulate/restrict use or manufacture of such by other countries whose construction, oversight, or operation thereof might be far beneathe US safety standards....Plus I have no idea what happens to the radioactive waste from manufacture and operation of those vessels, even if they are safely seaworthy.....
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #182 on: November 11, 2008, 10:15:45 am »
Obama won, necessary sentiments expressed, lock the thread.

Tanis It has been decided by higher powers that this thread is open to discussion. Unless people feel personally attacked there is no reason to close the thread. It is in the spam area so educated debates are welcome as well. If people want to bandy information than there is nothing wrong with it.

*I talked to a couple Directors at the General meeting regarding this thread specifically. Just for clairification.*
Yeah, generally, people ask to lock threads not demand it.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #183 on: November 11, 2008, 06:38:17 pm »
According to my co-worker, who spent 20 years in nuclear submarines. There have been no major nuclear accidents, none that are newsworthy. The USS Thresher which sank due to flooding is still down there with it's reactor and all crew. The reason for no serious incidents or accidents is due to the strict training and design specifications demanded by Admiral Hymen G. Rickover, the father of the nuclear navy. See also Jimmy Carter.

San Onofre civilian nuclear power plant located between Camp Pendleton and San Diego, located between the ocean and I-5, uses liquid sodium as a heat exchange medium through the core. It does not later exchange with mercury, but with ordinary water, INDIRECTLY of course, as sodium and water mix explosively well.

Chernobyl was a reactor design the US did not pursue beyond the 1930s. Although graphite does absorb neutrons well.

So, what kind of dog are the First kids getting?
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Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #184 on: November 11, 2008, 06:56:21 pm »
So, what kind of dog are the First kids getting?

I would laugh so hard if it was a poodle or chihuahua or something like that. Somehow I think feel like the first dog should be a protective dog, even though they have enough secret service to handle everything. I am kinda curious to see what they get and what his or her name is.
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Offline Mentally Hilarious

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #185 on: November 11, 2008, 07:04:19 pm »
I'm glad he won, REALLY. But I hate how they say ANYONE can be a president now if he can do it. Its raising too many hopes. Specially for the hispanics than know no english.
Go obama, but dont think this changes everything or anything really as a matter of anyone having a chance to be president of the united states one day.


Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #186 on: November 11, 2008, 07:50:22 pm »
Hey, at least this Dem will have a DOG rather than a CAT, like the last Dem.

@ M-Hilarious: I like the ANYONE can be president factor. I think the same thing would have been accomplished had the Repubs successfully run B. Jindal. (Go for 2012?) And not with Palin; *Please.* How about Bobby Jindal & Ann Coulter? She should get involved in government at some level so as to become a viable pick. IMHO, she'd be a great proponent for 'American' values that I personally find important.

As for lack of competence in English, well, when I worked in Japan for 2yrs, I learned to speak and read Japanese. I certainly had no pretensions of running to lead Japanese nationals at any level of their government. Similarly, when I worked in Sweden I learned to speak Swedish. I think that if being incapable of speaking the language of a country makes it difficult to reach the highest levels of political command, well, that's a reasonable filter. The president must be a natural-born American, after all. (It's in the constitution....)

I also think that the ANYONE-can-do-it meme can be used to undo many special cheater-handicaps, like out-dated Affirmative Action penalties (which are essentially reverse discrimination, and therefore the same as any other sort of discrimination.)

One other challenge will be to maintain right to criticize, mock, or lampoon the President. The liberals have set a high standard of abuse, but generally they are inconsistent with the notions of 'free speech' and 'parody' when Their Guy is the target. Imagine:

- Obama countdown calendars?
- Bush was called a Nazi many times, on the internet and in print. What can we call Obama to an equal extreme, and can we retain the right to express such an equal invective, without being labeled a racist. That's gonna be an important issue to defend when we are criticizing his POLICY - not the skin or eye color, or hair-curl radius, or bone density of the human body bearing the name. We will make a crack on a policy decision, and you can bet the farm that the libs will say we only say that because of a man's phenotype. Sillly, isn't it? But don't doubt for a minute that statements like "I disagree with his policy on [xxx] and I think he doesn't know what he's talking about, or he's incapable of solving problem [qqq]," will be labeled as 'racist' even though nothing in between the last pair of quotes cites the man's genetic composition or parentage.
- Can we expect the same level of strident mockery on SNL? Would Will Smith or Chris Rock do a send-up for us?




« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 08:08:57 pm by Prinz Eugen »

Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #187 on: November 11, 2008, 08:35:20 pm »
I'd guess that SNL would only do something funny, if the president did something funny. They would only make fun of Republicans.

As to who or what conservatives may use to deride Obama, hmmm Maybe Uncle Barack, or Barack the Bolshevik, although I bet Hillary would have been more Stalinesque and Obama more Trotsyesque, certainly after Trotsky was run out of town.

But, is it just me, or has the transition team been acting more moderate, and not so left as conservatives would have had us believe?

Speaking of whom, has conservative talk radio stopped whining and pointing fingers yet? I just can't stand their breaking of Ronald Reagan's 11th commandment. Thou shalt not speak ill of a fellow Republican.
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #188 on: November 11, 2008, 11:23:07 pm »
I'd guess that SNL would only do something funny, if the president did something funny. They would only make fun of Republicans.

Obama has already been on SNL...

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Offline kurosakiichigo666

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #189 on: November 12, 2008, 04:32:04 am »
I'm totally stoked that Obama won. I'm not sure how much good he'll be able to do, but I think it'll be more than McCain would. Did anyone else see the first debate where McCain said would put a spending freeze on EVERYTHING but defense, veteran affairs, and entitlement programs? What is that? I don't know about you guys, but that kind of thinking scares me. And If you want my source here's the transcript of the entire debate http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/president/debates/transcripts/first-presidential-debate.html. I totally agree with what's been said several times in this thread, that either one of them could mess this country up more and either one could fix it. I just believe that Obama is more likely to have good effects rather than bad.  But only time will tell.

As for nuclear energy, it is NOT clean by any standards. Anyone who says otherwise is either uninformed, misunderstanding facts, or being paid to say otherwise.While it is incredibly efficient, it is my personal belief that other energy sources are absolutely vital. Either that or we need to develop technology to house, refine, or reuse the nuclear waste so it is not a threat to anyone or anything.

Also, completely unrelated but I have to say it, irregardless is not a word. Regardless works just fine :P
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #190 on: November 12, 2008, 04:55:31 am »
Quote from: jaybug
As to who or what conservatives may use to deride Obama, hmmm Maybe Uncle Barack, or Barack the Bolshevik, although I bet Hillary would have been more Stalinesque
Agreed - there'd have been more Vincent Foster-style disappearances... I'd be unconfortable using 'Uncle
  • ' as a slur because I think that would give my verbal adversary an opening to cry 'racism,' but what I was talking about was predicting that people who criticize the president's actions, decisions, or opinions - making expressions of dissent with NO racial elements included - will be called racists.
Quote from: jaybug
Speaking of whom, has conservative talk radio stopped whining and pointing fingers yet?
I don't listen much to them, but like any other station their job is to sell advertising to a defined demographic, so the more astute of them will be tailoring their message to what they think their audience will find entertaining enough to listen through the commercial breaks.

'Irregardless' is a little grammar pet-peeve of mine as well. (But I'm not attacking whoever recently used it.) Sometimes it's part of a tendency to add an extra syllable to words just to sound like you are using longer words. Other examples are 'orientate' instead of 'orient,' 'position,' or even 'align,' and I once heard 'electronical,' which is now gaining in usage frequency. People have already been using 'electronic' in places where 'electric' is sufficient. (yes, another fun tangent...)

We were talking about nuclear safety, not radioactive wastes. However, the physical volume of waste produced by a nuclear plant is teeny compared to the volume of emissions of a coal-fired plant of the same power. I always though that we could rocket the waste into the sun. Depends on how cheap it is to build a non-passenger rocket. Maybe we can use all those old, obsolete Titan missiles.

Offline Wuntvor

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #191 on: November 12, 2008, 11:37:07 am »
We were talking about nuclear safety, not radioactive wastes. However, the physical volume of waste produced by a nuclear plant is teeny compared to the volume of emissions of a coal-fired plant of the same power. I always though that we could rocket the waste into the sun. Depends on how cheap it is to build a non-passenger rocket. Maybe we can use all those old, obsolete Titan missiles.

I have one word for that.  Challenger.  I agree that sending all our waste into the sun would be a great way of getting rid of it. I just don't think a rocket is the best way to get it there (although it may be a great way to irradiate a large area of the planet if anything should go wrong).  Whatever happened to magnetic catapults and orbital elevators?   ???
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Offline kurosakiichigo666

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #192 on: November 12, 2008, 05:23:32 pm »
We were talking about nuclear safety, not radioactive wastes.
The discussion involved nuclear safety as well as how clean nuclear energy is. Radioactive waste is a by-product of nuclear energy and is the reason why I am not really supportive of it, though I realize the electricity I use every day and am currently using to make this post is most likely nuclear. But that doesn't mean I like it. If we could find a better way to dispose of waste, then I'd be all for it. I don't think rocketing it to the sun is the answer though. Like Wuntvor said, if something went wrong, which isn't even close to impossible, it would result in the irradiation of a very large area and I don't believe it's worth the risk. Plus the waste could have an unknown effect on the sun, as well as the rocket used to get it there. We don't know what'll happen if we start firing rockets into the sun. Plus, making rockets is very expensive if I am not mistaken. The fuel is incredibly expensive and it takes a lotto just to breach the atmosphere.
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #193 on: November 12, 2008, 05:57:21 pm »
I remember the Challenger explosion.

I do like the magnetic rail-gun approach if we can impart escape velocity to the projectile (or 'torpedo.')
One other possible disposal site could be one of the smaller or more useless moons on any of the nearby planets. Let's just pick one.

If any of you saw the movie 2010; then you might remember the phrase
"ALL THESE WORLDS ARE YOURS EXCEPT IO, ATTEMPT NO LANDINGS THERE."

.... and probes sent there kept on getting fried. My first thought was, if "they" fry anything we send to Io, then its the ideal choice for us to use as 'the landfill."

Offline kurosakiichigo666

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #194 on: November 12, 2008, 07:17:07 pm »
........I gotta stop thinking in terms of movies and whatnot......that is a very good point lol. I keep thinking like Hollywood or whatever, "If you send something explosive into the sun, the sun will explode" I know it's stupid but I just keep forgetting how things really are. Just another example of how the media affects people....I still don't think that sending a rocket full of toxic waste into space is a good idea though. I am convinced that something will go wrong and things will eventually end up worse than they are if we start doing that. But that's just me, I'm known for being really negative and pessimistic.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #195 on: November 12, 2008, 08:37:01 pm »
Hmmm, where to start?

1. Powell's technical books! Because you are not getting my metallurgy text!

2. I'm still agog over transmutation of elements. Mercury into gold? Somehow I don't believe it. I could maybe see a radio isotope of Mercury releasing helium and decaying to cadmium or zinc, but not gold. maybe.

3. Atomic waste is taking the Navaho reservation and putting it into a smaller pile. Where do you think this stuff came from? In a factory in NYC? It was not pulled out of Bush's behind. Maybe his earwax. lol

4. The rocket to the sun better have a really thick layer of tungsten, and the rocket flying at a significant fraction of C, or it will evaporate before it even touches the corona, and thereby spewing everything back the way it came from in the solar wind. Oh, the solar wind is radioactive too! But so are the Van Allen belts!

5. It's Europa, no Io! Io is for too radioactive due to the presence of Jupiter. Humans will not be getting to land in Io, or within the orbital distance of io from Jupiter in our lifetimes. It would be similar to putting a dog in the microwave to dry it. Cockroaches may live, but not people. And even if they did, they better not try to have children, at best.

I can't wait until Hank Paulson stops trying to spend $700 billion! I think he is doing his Wall street pals favors, but not Joe six-pack taxpayer.

Did anyone else see Robert Reich as part of Obama's transition team? I hope he does another stint as labor secretary! I think he is freakin' awesome! I got him to autograph his Locked in the Cabinet book for me, and no I did not sell it on E-Bay!
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Offline kurosakiichigo666

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #196 on: November 12, 2008, 09:51:49 pm »
Atomic waste is taking the Navaho reservation and putting it into a smaller pile. Where do you think this stuff came from? In a factory in NYC? It was not pulled out of Bush's behind. Maybe his earwax. lol
I think I'm misunderstanding you here, what are you talking about?
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #197 on: November 12, 2008, 10:36:17 pm »
Much of the uranium and derived plutonium came from the Navaho reservation. It was mined there. Then processed at Hanford, and the other two of which names escape me at present. But one is in the Carolina's and the other in Colorado, I think. These were done like a lot of political things, fast and cheap, and out of sight, out of mind.

Anyway, uranium oxide, which is the raw material, is still radioactive. Processing merely concentrates the radioactive mass. But everything that comes in contact with that matter is classed as contaminated, so you end up with a lot of stuff. It may or may not remain so long, but...it all got stuffed in cheap barrels and buried.

Remember, this work was done by the lowest bidder! Nuclear plants have little to do with waste other than spent rods. It is the 3 places in America that process the raw material into fuel that creates the majority of contaminated waste. Utilities also need to be extremely mindful of lawsuits, as they could not afford the class-action lawsuit from any mishap, whereas you have to get permission from the government to sue the government. And when it comes to "National Security" issues, what do you think is going to happen

Does that help?
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Jay

Offline kurosakiichigo666

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #198 on: November 13, 2008, 01:09:19 am »
OK I think I get it now. So the dangerous toxic waste comes from creating the fuel and not from the plants themselves? That makes sense. I was unclear on the whole process. Thanks for clarifying.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #199 on: November 13, 2008, 08:40:21 pm »
Just think many of our nuclear plants are operated by 18-22 year olds! What, you thought the navy was run by guys Homer Simpson's age?
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Jay