Author Topic: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!  (Read 41712 times)

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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #200 on: November 13, 2008, 11:35:35 pm »
For those who don't yet resent the Bush presidencies for deliberately obfuscating scientific results on global warming, or who still malign hero Gore as though we were exaggerating, here's one of the scariest things you could read:
(re: massive brown clouds across continents....)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081114/ap_on_sc/as_china_brown_clouds

Oh and in terms of personal adjustments I walked to and from work and meditation today (a few miles) and have yet to use the heat in my apartment this season, and changed to the curly-fry shaped fluorescent bulb....any little thing helps....meeting in Eugene on converting cars to electric coming up in December....I'm hoping Obama will subsidize worker retraining and plant rebuilding to accommodate what I'm hoping will be a growing demand for electric cars. That could help more than a straight cash bail out of the auto industry....
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 11:39:15 pm by RemSaverem »
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Offline Rathany

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #201 on: November 13, 2008, 11:43:24 pm »
Having lived in right on the edge of the fall out zone from the nuclear power plant that powers NYC, I am scared by nuclear power.  The be truly safe from metldowns, it needs to be safe from melting down even in the case of bombing attacks.  This may be possible, I don't know.

One of the scariest moments of my life was when the alarm that signals a nuclear meltdown malfunctioned and went off about 6 weeks after 9/11.  Since it was a malfunction and not a planned test, there was no crawl on the TV screen going 'this is only a test ...'.   My behavoirs are still affected by how traumatized I was by thinking that the plant had been hit and that my friends, who lived very close to it, would likely not get away in time.

We can't just think in terms of accidents.
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Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #202 on: November 14, 2008, 12:01:14 am »
presuming things are as dire as they say, the auto industry is doing so poorly that they can't even pay their people's paychecks and utility bills.  a simply pay for worker retraining and rebuliding of plants may not be enough.
either way, Obama may have a potential problem as the enviromental groups want the money to have strong conditions for the enviroment which are opposed by the worker unions.
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Saving the US Auto Industry
« Reply #203 on: November 14, 2008, 05:16:34 am »
The Greenie-weenies are trying to do the same thing in Germany, with some loony-tune notion of a "max. carbon foorptint per vehicle." Porsche has told them to "go pound sand, that's not our market segment."

Reminds me of an old bumper sticker about whatever not being forbidden is mandatory. The dems are just as keen to take away rights and tell people what they SHOULD do as the Repubs - it's just that different realms of lifestyle freedoms get attacked. The Repubs try to tell you who you cannot take into a dark room under the sheets with you. The Dems try to tell you you're not allowed to drive a sports car, or that ALL must worship The Environment even when that's not part of your own religion. Obama recently floated the idea of (the "m" word) MANDATORY community service for schoolkids. Why not just let the people be free? (Answer from *whoever* is in power: "...because free people don't always make the choices WE want them to make, so we must meddle with them.")

The US Auto industry has several problems:
- They're not making cars that Americans want to buy, at prices other foreign companies *can* sell in this country.
- They're not being allowed to compete as openly in other countries as car makers there get to compete here. (Example: You never see any 'Ford' dealerships in Japan.)
- High gas prices last summer decreased most gasoline enginse sales, not just cars, so EVERYBODY took a hit in that sector.

I'll edit this later on (probably tonight) to expand on the reasons - meanwhile it's off to work.)

...Be back tonight...

Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #204 on: November 14, 2008, 06:40:44 am »
I serously don't think the US auto industry needs to be saved.  The free market has spoken that car demand is way low due to energy issues.  The auto industry didn't respond to this changing market in time to not be on the verge of bankrupsty.

They should be chopped up and sold off like many other companies were.  I think it'd be ironic if some private investors buy up the scrapped electric car that we nixed here in the us in the 90s and made tons of money on them.  Big inflexable companies need to wake up an smell the coffee not get buffeded from their own poor choices.
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #205 on: November 14, 2008, 11:10:39 am »
1st re cars:
I know there is a documentary out there called 'Who Killed the Electric Car'?
I want to try to track that down......

Meantime one thing Obama mentioned that I support is decreasing or eliminating subsidies for companies who outsource labor to overseas. There was some kind of record for job loss in October (which undoubtedly tilted the election the way it went), nearly a quarter of a million jobs lost THAT MONTH. And that counts ONLY THOSE JOBS THAT ARE KNOWN ABOUT. i.e. think of everyone you've known who's ever worked "under the table," a lot of that kind of employment is likely hurting as well....

There are tons of workers willing to work. There are multiple factories capable of running. Surely rendering those of utility is better than letting them go to waste.

BTW I switched from a foreign to a domestic car about 4 years ago to not be hypocritical on the subject. Took the bus, walked, rollerskated, and hitchhiked for the summer months between cars.  (Note to minors, hitchhiking is not a safe thing to do alone or potentially ever especially if female. I stopped as it started to feel sketchy.)

Now for Rathany's point. OMG I honestly had not actually thought of that. Wow insanely scary prospect.
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Offline Higuma

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #206 on: November 14, 2008, 11:52:52 am »
Obama has also mentioned raising the taxes of big companies, which will make them take there business overseas. Why would you keep your business here if another country would give you tax breaks? If Obama raises taxes look for more companies to move overseas.

Offline lychee-twist

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #207 on: November 14, 2008, 03:15:15 pm »
Higuma, corporations took their business overseas to cut costs and make more profit, not to dodge taxes. Bush was already giving the uber rich folk enough tax breaks as is. Plus they're already making enough profit that extra taxes wouldn't make a difference. It's not like he's going to make them give the economy %50 of whatever "spending" money they have. I can't see the amount going past 15%. If anything, I'd imagine that Obama would work to stop corporations going overseas, and I do believe that he made mention of that in his speeches.

Corporations going overseas means less jobs for Americans which means less money to spend on said corporations so everyone tanks. It was a bad idea in general. I think that's one reason, along with the mortgage crisis, why we're where we are.

I just hope Obama fixes the economy because I finally got a job and on my second day of work they told me to not come in because Coach corporate called for hour cuts.

I had only worked 4 hours. My second day was another four hours.

I'm currently searching for a second job in addition to "working" at Coach. Every morning I wake up hoping I'll get a call asking me to come into work.

It's been five days and no call. I can't buy anything because I don't have money so companies who are losing money have to cut back on hours and jobs. I think that's proof enough of the Catch 22 we're in at the moment.

I say we go back to what FDR did and create even stupid jobs where people walk around and carry red balloons to scare pidgeons off of buildings just to put money back to the people and back to the economy, not giving AIG another f'ing 40 billion dollars just so they can have resort "executive meetings" and super expensive spas.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 03:20:38 pm by lychee-twist »
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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #208 on: November 14, 2008, 06:05:15 pm »
How many people has it been now that have threatened to move out of america if blank does or doesn't happen?

Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #209 on: November 14, 2008, 07:32:02 pm »
If anything, I'd imagine that Obama would work to stop corporations going overseas, and I do believe that he made mention of that in his speeches.

As soon as Obama does this I'm moving out of the country. It is totally illegal for him to tell companies where they can and can not send their business or jobs to.

If it is illegal (Just going off Mr_Mustash's post as I havent researched this myself) than I really hope that we can find a happy balance. I dont mind having overseas companies as I think it is good for many reasons, but I really hope that he can balance those outsourced jobs with some internal ones. I know many are concerned that "Too many" jobs are going overseas but we should, as a strong county, be able to provide adequte jobs here too. If Lychee's post was incorrect I hope this is what Obama meant, or at least something he plans on doing. Only time will tell. I know im currently dealing with unemployment in my household as well as so many computer jobs are being slashed in the US right now. It really sucks knowing that if we wanted to take a world wide "travelers" job than we could be more secure than taking an office job where we live. That and the fact that because SO many technical workers are out of work right now, many employers are lowering their wages. Its just wrong.

When is that "silver lining" going to appear in this raincloud economy? Soon please?? :)
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #210 on: November 15, 2008, 06:50:13 am »
The silver lining right now is only for the peopl that are well to do.  Some stocks are artifically low and if people with cash saved invest now they can make a huge sum when / if it bounces back.

Also, Housing prices have falled insanely.  However, because of the mortgage crisis interest rates are not so good.  So, people with the money to snag one of these housing deals as an investment (it's not like we can sell our house in this market so upgrading isn't much of an option)  propeties is a steal.  The market is resetting itself because of imbalance but people / banks that made poor choices because greed are going to have to take the loss and face the real value of their property.

But Higuma is completely right.  Passing tax hikes for international companies willy only drive them out of the US.  It'll have the opposite effect of keeping jobs from being outsourced.  At my company they had a plant in colorado that they could have easily upgraded with new technolgy (it was getting dated)  However, China gave a way way way better deal then colorado would have so for someone who is buisness minded the choice becomes rather obvous. 

If we want to make the US a play to get jobs, there needs to be competive packages to have buisnesses continue to invest here.  Trying to punish people for making choices in the best interest of their own share holders willy only drive companies out.

We are seeing this with the US auto industry, they have protected themselves right out of their own jobs.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 06:51:33 am by melchizedek »
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Offline Wuntvor

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #211 on: November 15, 2008, 05:51:00 pm »
I serously don't think the US auto industry needs to be saved.  The free market has spoken that car demand is way low due to energy issues.  The auto industry didn't respond to this changing market in time to not be on the verge of bankrupsty.

They should be chopped up and sold off like many other companies were.  I think it'd be ironic if some private investors buy up the scrapped electric car that we nixed here in the us in the 90s and made tons of money on them.  Big inflexable companies need to wake up an smell the coffee not get buffeded from their own poor choices.
1st re cars:
I know there is a documentary out there called 'Who Killed the Electric Car'?
I want to try to track that down......

'Who Killed the Electric Car?' talks about the very subject of melchizedek's post.  Interesting choice of words there melchizedek.  Chopped up, is exactly what happened to ALL of the electric cars from the 90's.  Chopped up, smashed, shredded.  In short destroyed beyond all hope of recovery.  But hey, the good news is they started making Hummers instead!   ::)  Great decisions like that one, are why they are in trouble now.   ;D

@Rem - I have this documentary, if you want to see it sometime.

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Offline DancingTofu

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #212 on: November 16, 2008, 12:13:43 am »
asdfadghwgdfasdfa

When did this happen?!

lol jk.  Play Super Obama World.  Best game ever.
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #213 on: November 16, 2008, 12:34:46 am »
Wuntvor: Definitely, if for some reason I can't download it I'll want to borrow and/or copy it.

How's this, I have a MASTERS and TEN YEARS in the field for which I applied for THREE jobs recently with my boyfriend, jobs that in the past I would've turned down, and we didn't even get a call-back from two of them. There is that much of a selective hiring field right now, because there are so many overqualified folks looking for work. I'm genuinely scared. Oh and definitely going to have to learn how to Skype to meetings, financially.
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #214 on: November 16, 2008, 07:12:35 am »
Quote from: lychee-twist
I say we go back to what FDR did and create even stupid jobs where people walk around and carry red balloons to scare pigeons off of buildings just to put money back to the people and back to the economy, not giving AIG another f'ing 40 billion dollars just so they can have resort "executive meetings" and super expensive spas.

1) Something should be done about that AIG "taxpayer-funded party." Really.

2) The problem with make-work programs is you have two bad choices for how to pay the people doing those jobs:
   (a) Print up money. This causes inflation and makes everything harder for everyone else to pay, polus it erodes the value of people's savings so many who could have been retired and 'out of the way' of the job market now have to come INTO the market to seek jobs to supplement their retirement savings, or
   (b) Take money away from other people. This does much the same thing. We *were* going to buy a computer and some other electronic equipment, but we are delaying or cancelling the purchase now. Same with a bathroom remodel - we cancelled that project.

You can't always nail "the big guys" because when you do that you kill dreams of innovators -  their fuel is that it's POSSIBLE to GET really rich. I have 3 gas turbine patents I am sitting on right now, because "If I can get this to work" ... then what? Do I get *rich,* or do I watch the fruit of my risk and poking around at a machine shop off-hours and testing things in the garage on weekends - does that all get taken away so that some gets sent to starving kids in Africa, and so that 20 jobless people paint a rusty bridge? Screw that. I'll read manga on weekends instead, and if I lose my day-job, I'll be painting bridges for a while on gov't money. And the invention never gets its chance to improve the way energy is generated.

Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #215 on: November 16, 2008, 07:20:21 am »
From an old e-mail I have on file, here's what happens when a 'tax break' doesn't hit proportionately.
(In other words, if you reduce taxes 1%, the $50,000 household gets a $500 rebate, but the $250,000 household gets a $2,500 check.
Then everyone complains that it's 'unfair' for the $250,000 household to get a bigger rebate check than the $50,000 household.)

Anyways, here goes:

--------

BAR STOOL ECONOMICS

 Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the
 bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the
 way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

 The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
 The fifth would pay $1.
 The sixth would pay $3
 The seventh would pay $7.
 The eighth would pay $12.
 The ninth would pay $18.
 The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

 So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank
 in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the
 arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve.
 "Since you are all such good customers," he said,
 "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20.
"Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

 The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our
 taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still
 drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying
 customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that
 everyone would get his fair share?' They realized that
 $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that
 from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth
 man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the
 bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each
 man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded
 to work out the amounts each should pay.

 And so:

 The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100%
 savings).
 The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings) .
 The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings) .
 The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
 The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
 The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

 Each of the six was better off than before. And the first
 four continued to drink for free. But once outside the
 restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

 "I only got a dollar out of the $20,"declared the
 sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!"

 "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved
 a dollar,too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I did!"

 "That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get
 $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

 "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison.
"We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

 The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
 The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks,
 so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it
 came time to pay the bill, they discovered something
 important. They didn't have enough money between all of
 them for even half of the bill!

 And that, boys and girls, journalists, liberals, and
 college professors, is how our tax system works. The people
 who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax
 reduction. Tax them too much, or attack them for being
 wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore.

In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

 David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
 Professor of Economics
 University of Georgia

 For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
 For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.
 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 11:48:09 am by Prinz Eugen »

Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #216 on: November 16, 2008, 06:59:51 pm »
I go away for a couple of days and see this?!?

I more understand why certain groups want to control the schools, so as to indoctrinate, as opposed to educate the youth, ergo the future of the country. So far it seems we are getting bad manners, bad science, bad ethics, but we leave no child behind. Behind what?

Mediocrity is going to be the death of us. Look at the "rocket scientists" of Wall Street. Or about anywhere. Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, FEMA, DMV.

Have you ever noticed that schools built in the 60s and 70s are having to be torn down, but schools buildings constructed in the 20s through the 40s are being used, not as schools, but are not demolished? The house I had built for me to live in will not survive 100 years. I am sure the house my great-grandfather build at the turn of the 20th century will stand for another 100 years or better, if someone lives in it and does simple maintenance.

So does anyone but me think that thinking for the long-term NOW would be a good idea? I believe costs will be higher in the short term, but overall and in the long-term costs will be reduced.

Is this going to be part of the next administration, or will it be too much to bother with? Just keep it short and simplistic?
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Offline DancingTofu

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #217 on: November 16, 2008, 07:47:15 pm »
Jay,
New things focus too much on experimental technologies and modern styles.  Look at computers.  I bought my computer in 2003.  It was almost non-functional by 2006.  I figured out that I could sever it from "updates" and install a 5-year-old antivirus program on it and it would run games from its own era and start up in less than 10 minutes, but the fact that a computer has to be replaced every 2-5 years is ridiculous.  My Amiga 500 lasted from 1987 to 2002.  That's 15 years.  Even my PS2 has lasted longer than my $800 computer.  I got that in 2002 and it has less problems.  The problem is that we're obsessed with rapid progress.  We're moving so fast that we're driving blind, so to speak.  People build billion-dollar buildings out of untested alloys and polycarbons and they fall apart in a decade or two.  Large-scale contractors tear down sturdy brick buildings and make new buildings carelessly, where the plumbing stinks, the ventilation is too expensive, and there's nowhere to park the cars of the 800 people who work inside.


Guy,
That's a fantastic example.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #218 on: November 16, 2008, 08:03:00 pm »
So let's whine about the 2 cents added gas tax the governor proposed. Right, 2 cents after gas has fallen by 2 dollars. Keep your tires inflated!

If, the new monies are spent on bicycle lanes and such, there is going to be a problem. Why can't bicyclists contribute?
Have Fun

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Offline DancingTofu

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #219 on: November 16, 2008, 11:45:33 pm »
I'd be happy to, but how?  Cars run on gas, so it's easy to put a tax on gas and make it go towards road maintenance.

We need a DNMT (Department of Non-Motorized Transportation) and:
-Bicycle Licenses and Registration tags
-Bicycle Insurance
-More resources for bicyclists (better bike lanes, more highway-parallel bike paths, covered bicycle parking, more bike routes, etc)
moderators gonna moderate </shrug>

Offline allstarsniper32

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #220 on: November 17, 2008, 06:26:09 am »

BAR STOOL ECONOMICS

 Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the
 bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the
 way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

 The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
 The fifth would pay $1.
 The sixth would pay $3
 The seventh would pay $7.
 The eighth would pay $12.
 The ninth would pay $18.
 The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

 So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank
 in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the
 arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve.
 "Since you are all such good customers," he said,
 "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20.
"Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

 The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our
 taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still
 drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying
 customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that
 everyone would get his fair share?' They realized that
 $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that
 from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth
 man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the
 bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each
 man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded
 to work out the amounts each should pay.

 And so:

 The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100%
 savings).
 The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings) .
 The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings) .
 The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
 The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
 The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

 Each of the six was better off than before. And the first
 four continued to drink for free. But once outside the
 restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

 "I only got a dollar out of the $20,"declared the
 sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!"

 "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved
 a dollar,too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I did!"

 "That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get
 $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

 "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison.
"We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

 The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
 The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks,
 so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it
 came time to pay the bill, they discovered something
 important. They didn't have enough money between all of
 them for even half of the bill!

 And that, boys and girls, journalists, liberals, and
 college professors, is how our tax system works. The people
 who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax
 reduction. Tax them too much, or attack them for being
 wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore.

In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

 David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
 Professor of Economics
 University of Georgia

 For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
 For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.
 

OK seriously, this really isn't that great of an explanation. First of all, buying drinks is not the best example as, I think most people know, if someone drinks alcohol they would NEVER complain about getting a beer for free. Not only that, this is backwards, if you've never been poor then you probably don't know that if you're using this system and you are getting something for free then you wouldn't beat up some rich person who's helping you get something, whatever it may be. This explanation shows that taxing the wealthy would help more than it would hurt. especially if gave poor people things for free, oh and I think the only free things they should get are food, water and shelter but some people abuse this. read below;

But don't think that I think poor people deserve this just because they are poor. I really can't stand when people use the system and don't try to get themselves going. For instance, in the example, the first four guys who didn't have to pay anything, wouldn't let the rich guy pay the most all the time without being rewarded (they sure as hell wouldn't beat him up and if one of them did the others would stop him because they understand they are getting treated right)and there is things that are more important than just them buying him drinks sometime. A rich guy who helps others would have someone to back him up if he was being mugged or something.

I know I kinda blab on but do you seriously believe that raising taxes on the wealthy would be horrible? oh yeah I wasn't going to come in the topic anymore, oh well I guess I won't just be reading the posts now.

Offline Higuma

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #221 on: November 17, 2008, 08:46:09 am »
@guitarherolover32- That story is not about drinkers it is a metaphor about our tax policy, and it is 100% correct. Why is it ok to tax the wealthy so much more? Is it because they worked so hard to get where they are or because they provide jobs for the rest of us? If my boss has to pay higher taxes then someone at my company is getting layed off to make up for it. Will it be me?

Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #222 on: November 17, 2008, 09:27:40 am »
Okay, so maybe bar stool econ is too simple.  Please check out this wiki to see how tax affects the free market.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadweight_loss

Bottom line, taxes are bad on the economy. People that think taxing the rich is a good thing for the economy are fooling themselves.  Rich or poor, supplier or consumer, taxes always negatively affect the market.  Which is ironic considering how many people put economics as issue #1 for the election.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #223 on: November 17, 2008, 05:18:57 pm »
Am I wealthy? I pay 42 percent of my income in taxes union dues and insurance, not counting home insurance or car insurance. It also does not include gas taxes or cigarette taxes. Just income taxes I can see on my pay stub.

On a more snide note, when things are not going your way, either whine, snivel or bury your head in the sand.

Oh, and class warfare works. Isn't that by and large why Bush is hated so much by the left?

Oh and it doesn't do much good in the long run, look at the Big 3 auto makers. I need to look at the Barron's article that says that management, labor, and the shareholders must all make concessions, in order to get the corporations in profitable condition.
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #224 on: November 17, 2008, 06:03:35 pm »
How many of you who like to kvetch about taxes
(a) went to public school?
(b) have benefitted from stop signs, stop lights, street name signs, etc.?
(c) have enjoyed public parks, beaches, heritage sites, museums, etc.?
(d) have needed the services of a municipal, county, state, or federal law officer?
(e) have needed a firefighter, EMT, or ambulance, or known someone whose life was saved by one?
(f) voted in the last election--using voting mechanisms and staff that had to be funded by *something*
(g) have ever used any form of public transit
(h) have ever attended any state or community college
etc. etc. etc.
Well then you directly benefitted from taxes so who are you to begrudge that they are in place? You ready to personally finance all those services for your whole community? No? Didn't think so.

SPARE ME.
It's just a given to me. Taxes are there for the public good. You make more off the public, you owe more towards the good of others. Not to the point that you're paralyzed, but to a point that makes sense. I remain astonished that there's no sales tax in Oregon.
(I grew up with one back East. There was a much lower tax on food items than on anything else. It was a pain in the butt at the cash register, but our school district was listed as one of the 10 best in Time Magazine. Oh and our district had school buses, unlike Eugene.)

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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #225 on: November 17, 2008, 08:26:04 pm »
Now I know why there are no Eugene 4J buses going from Autzen stadium after the games! I wondered, so did mom why there were school districts from as fas as Coos Bay, but not one from Eugene.

Wonder what they will do when the Emeralds play at Autzen and not at Civic stadium...

My take on taxes are that the economic pinch should be felt equally by all. And they should be used for the benefit of all, not just some or a few. All, as in everyone can go to Crater lake National Park.

yup, one of two or three states with no sales tax, and no self-serve gasoline either! Woot! I've been thinking about what would happen with a sales tax, but it seems that no level of government can do without a tax source ever. Meaning that were we to give ourselves a sales tax, would income taxes decrease or go away altogether?

Also, Oregon does not have any military bases, except for Umatilla Weapons Depot, just say nerve gas, not NIRV gas. sorry little anime joke there. Unlike all our neighbors, Washington, California, Nevada, Idaho, etc. etc. etc. Do you realize how much economic benefit those states get from that? Lots. But it still isn't enough for California.

Nothing is enough for California. I have no solutions to offer.
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #226 on: November 18, 2008, 12:05:46 am »
Ellen, please don't take things so personally, your last post sounded a little heated.

I've never said taxes are unneeded.  I'm just saying people need to be honest about how they negatively affect the free market.

And I do agree with Jay, for the amount of federal money we pay out we sure don't get much in return. 

So the thing that erks me is that in government jobs, departments are punished for cost saving.  I had a friend at another forum that worked for the government and if they had a surplus in at the end of the year then their budget would be reduced the next year.  I'd like to see this practice reversed. 

REWARD government employees for saving money, have part of their bonus based on how much under budget they can be.
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Offline I Future Trunks I

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #227 on: November 18, 2008, 11:49:59 am »
Obama rox.
MY COSPLAYS FOR KCON '09!
 MAH COSPLAYS FOR KCON '09
Toshiro Hitsugaya FROM BLEACH
Teen Sora from KINGDOM HEARTS
Mirai no Trunks from Doragon Ball Zetto
AND..of course... Lan Hikari from Megaman NT warrior!

Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #228 on: November 18, 2008, 06:41:53 pm »
I agree, a use-it-or-lose-it budget mentality does not make sense during a time of deficit.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #229 on: November 19, 2008, 03:39:44 pm »
government employees get bonuses? anyone in Oregon gets a Christmas bonus? Never heard of that. Certainly never got one.

Use it or lose it doesn't make sense at any time. It only leads to waste. It does not make it so that when things break, they are repaired or replaced.

I think I should tell you folks a story, but in person and not on the net. sigh I wish I could sound more positive today, but...wait for tomorrow! I will be really burned out! JUst in time for my weekend.
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #230 on: November 20, 2008, 10:38:37 am »
One of the first things I would do to try to make taxes more equitable, in addition to the aforementioned goal of Obama's "to eliminate tax breaks for companies that send jobs overseas" or whatever the verbatim was, would be to set some equitable guidelines for those immensely profitable businesses (such as the Sacred Wallet BILLION dollar hospital empire) that get off tax-free for having a religious affiliation. Makes ZERO sense to me. A vastly profit-making hospital is NOT a church, even if it's run by folks affiliated with one. They should pay property and business taxes like everyone else. Proportional to the amount they profit after expenses.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #231 on: November 20, 2008, 04:26:17 pm »
That would be one of the wonder's of the modern world, fix the US tax code. But... can you say special interests? I can only imagine fixing the social security nightmare to come as being about the only thing harder to do.

Now if we can just get people to stop building houses where we shouldn't obviously be building houses. E.G. 5 feet below sea level in hurricane zones. Up in the hills of Southern California. And rickety construction methods in tornado alley. Yes, this makes things very difficult, but...the insurance is killing us in the long run. If we can get insurance, as they are trying like heck to get out of insuring those places.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 10:29:17 pm by jaybug »
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #232 on: November 21, 2008, 12:23:56 am »
Speaking of insurance killing us --see Michael Moore's Sicko for proof of how vastly denial of insurance is literally killing many of us.
Now here's a type of insurance most of us aren't directly affected by but don't realize that we're indirectly affected by: malpractice insurance. My dad's been saving lives in an operating room in a hospital in a dangerous part of one of the world's biggest cities --lots of gunshot wounds and stabbing wounds from gang fights, etc.--for 40 years. In addition to the aforementioned travesty that Fannie Mae and Lehman Brothers' irresponsibility & government lack of oversight to prevent such, ate his IRA--well malpractice insurance has been eating a huge chunk of his paychecks forever..........

Here's a major pet peeve of mine. When collections companies spend so much more to try to get my money than I actually owe them. And even more so, when they bother to do so so harranguingly, so hypocritically, after getting government bailout money themselves. Screw that!
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #233 on: November 21, 2008, 03:49:26 am »
Yeah, I'm not pleased at obama supporting the bailout. 
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Offline lychee-twist

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #234 on: November 21, 2008, 03:08:41 pm »
Speaking of insurance killing us --see Michael Moore's Sicko for proof of how vastly denial of insurance is literally

Michael Moore: Not a credible source...

Thank you! Because grabbing a few 9-11 victims, a megaphone, and a boat, sailing to Guantanamo Bay, and sitting out their demanding Health insurance is a great way to get your point across.

And Obama's support of the bailout was a huge "ARGH" moment for me. Clearly AIG is doing well as is evidence from their resort trips and all.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 03:10:10 pm by lychee-twist »
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #235 on: November 21, 2008, 04:30:43 pm »
Agreed Lychee, I as a tax payer want our money back from that loser deal.
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Offline Higuma

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #236 on: November 22, 2008, 05:52:23 pm »
Speaking of insurance killing us --see Michael Moore's Sicko for proof of how vastly denial of insurance is literally

Michael Moore: Not a credible source...
Very true.

Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #237 on: November 22, 2008, 06:24:46 pm »
Speaking of insurance killing us --see Michael Moore's Sicko for proof of how vastly denial of insurance is literally

Michael Moore: Not a credible source...
Very true.

I have not seen this. The real question is not weather the source is credible, but rather if the facts presented were accurate. Rem, or anyone else, could you clairify as to the facts of this source?

Quote
Because grabbing a few 9-11 victims, a megaphone, and a boat, sailing to Guantanamo Bay, and sitting out their demanding Health insurance is a great way to get your point across.

This seems like a matter of opinion on how the message was delivered. Im curious to the facts presented in the movie.

Of course understanding always that people may or may not agree with me.  :) :)
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #238 on: November 22, 2008, 06:35:27 pm »
u.s. census good enough for y'all?
% of uninsured skyrockets:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/567737

deaths from lack of insurance:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/healthcare/2002-05-22-insurance-deaths.htm
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/?Article_ID=6684&page=article

confirmed by american medical association:
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2008/05/05/gvsc0505.htm

I love Michael Moore, he is one of my heroes. I couldn't care less who doesn't like him as a filmmaker, but anyone who thinks people don't die from lack of insurance is FULL OF @#$#.
I personally know of more than one person who died from lack of DENTAL CARE.

This is UNACCEPTABLE in this country or anywhere.
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Offline Mentally Hilarious

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #239 on: November 22, 2008, 06:56:19 pm »
Whether Obama or McCain won, America is still going under in one way or another. Why worry? Its FUN to move to CANADA! :D


Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #240 on: November 22, 2008, 07:02:50 pm »
http://www.cdc.gov/od/oc/media/pressrel/fs030220.htm

The Centers for Disease Control study of a decade of statistics verifies that there women who do not receive prenatal care are THREE TO FOUR TIMES MORE LIKELY TO DIE a pregnancy-related death than those who do. Is that enough for those who doubt Michael Moore to admit that people without access to medical care die disproportionately? By G-d, it's such an obvious given, I can't even remotely imagine how anyone could question it. Unless, of course, they're sucked into the right-wing mentality of hey if you can't pay for it yourself I guess you just deserve to die. *shrugs* I simply can't countenance that mentality.
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Offline Wuntvor

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #241 on: November 22, 2008, 09:08:19 pm »
Speaking of insurance killing us --see Michael Moore's Sicko for proof of how vastly denial of insurance is literally
Michael Moore: Not a credible source...
Very true.
I have not seen this. The real question is not weather the source is credible, but rather if the facts presented were accurate. Rem, or anyone else, could you clairify as to the facts of this source?

Quote
Because grabbing a few 9-11 victims, a megaphone, and a boat, sailing to Guantanamo Bay, and sitting out their demanding Health insurance is a great way to get your point across.
This seems like a matter of opinion on how the message was delivered. Im curious to the facts presented in the movie.

Of course understanding always that people may or may not agree with me.  :) :)

My only question about Michael Moore is; If what he is saying and showing in the numerous documentaries he has created and played nation wide, in theaters all across the US, is untrue, why hasn't anyone stopped him?  Is it because he is an Academy Award winning filmmaker and political commentator?  If you can give me an answer to that, that I can stomach, then I will agree that he isn't a creditable source.  Yes he tends to be a bit theatrical, but he does toss out facts, and visit real places, and interview real doctors, and talk to real patients.  Maybe they aren't the average, or the norm, but they are real examples just the same.  To say that ANYONE was paying over $150 for an inhaler in the US that they could get the generic brand of for $0.05 in Cuba, is just wrong.  Or that you are denied any form of health care that will SAVE YOUR LIFE, because you don't have insurance that will cover it.  FACT- the guy could have had an operation that would most likely have saved him.  FACT - a family member was a match for the needed operation.  FACT - the family member was willing to aid the patient.  FACT - The man died when the hospital refused to do the procedure because his insurance didn't cover it.  Or that when you accidentaly chop of a couple of your fingers you have to choose which one to have re-attached, because your insurance wont cover the cost of both.  Now that one was just plain surprising to me.  How about the closed circut TV footage of the cab letting the lady off in front of a low-income emergency ward, in her hospital gown, after the other hospital kicked her out for not having any money?  I suppose he faked that?  Have you actually watched a Michael Moore film?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 09:13:15 pm by Wuntvor »
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Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #242 on: November 22, 2008, 09:24:11 pm »
Quote
Have you actually watched a Michael Moore film?

I did admit above that I hadnt seen sicko, and I must say I havent seen a Michael Moore film as I wasnt sure if they would be worth seeing.

I will agree whole heartedly that our insurance system is messed up. I know that just being pregnant has been more of a hassle than it should be. I was really sick/feverish on a Saturday and because my clinic wasnt open on weekends, I had to go to urgent care for a simple cold. I only wanted to ask what medicines they would prefer me take and I had to sit in the waiting room for nearly an hour watching people WAY worse off than me in various ways wait after me. Finding an Urgent care clinic to take me was also a hassle as I could only go to the 1 that my insurance covered. I hadnt needed to go to urgent care for any reason so I had to call the insurance company and be transfered 5 TIMES to find out where I could go.

but what really got under my skin was when the doctor listed off all the medical terms for medicines I could take (like I honestly understand doctor talk and can translate it into what it will do for me) then asked me

"So what can I get for you?"

My first thought was "Are you a doctor or a drug dealer?" I came for advice! I wanted a medical opinion as to what I should take. So I made him tell me what each thing would specifically do for me before ultimatly saying what I thought would help.

My situation is so small compaired to transplant, or dental deaths. But its not just the big insurance issues that are rediculous, its all of it.
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #243 on: November 22, 2008, 09:29:50 pm »
Wuntvor & Deviant Spider, I agree with both your posts (and hope you, D.S., will now check out Sicko).
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Offline DancingTofu

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #244 on: November 22, 2008, 09:31:13 pm »
And Obama's support of the bailout was a huge "ARGH" moment for me. Clearly AIG is doing well as is evidence from their resort trips and all.
It wasn't a bailout.  The proposal was to purchase assets to give monetary backing to their loans.  If we had done that in a timely manner, we would have saved the U.S. market 1.3 trillion dollars in the short term, and much more in the long term.  Because people lacked foresight and misunderstood the transaction, the economy is down another 2 trillion dollars and counting.
moderators gonna moderate </shrug>

Offline reppy

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #245 on: November 22, 2008, 09:41:08 pm »
Well, seems to me that Moore was right to oppose the Iraq war.  So if we want talk credibility..  ;D  You want to know what the problem is?  Insurance companies don't make money by providing care .. they make money by denying it.  That's a sad fact and a reason I'm not very trusting of "for profit" health care.  Who are you?  You're just some schmuck to them.  But boy oh boy, if their stock holders aren't pleased then there's trouble.

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Offline Wuntvor

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #246 on: November 22, 2008, 09:46:27 pm »
Quote
Have you actually watched a Michael Moore film?
I did admit above that I hadnt seen sicko, and I must say I havent seen a Michael Moore film as I wasnt sure if they would be worth seeing.

D-Spider, my comment wasn't at you (I had read that you hadn't watched it.) It was at Mr. Mustash, Higuma, and Lychee-twist, who said Michael Moore isn't a creditable source.  I would think that the threat of massively huge lawsuits, if he lied about anything, would add some creditability to what he was saying.  And, I am with Rem on suggesting you see Sicko, and some of the other Michael Moore films.  All of them left me with a huge desire to go out and kill something.  You get SO ANGRY.  ARGHH!!!
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Offline DancingTofu

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #247 on: November 22, 2008, 09:51:36 pm »
The only one I've watched all the way through was Bowling for Columbine, which certainly didn't make me want to kill much of anything!  Michael Moore is a valid source as far as what he does goes simply by principle.  You can't go out and talk to people who have been shot at during a school shooting and be an invalid source in that regard.  Michael Moore is a secondary source on almost all information he delivers.  Most "reliable" sources are at least tertiary -- sources that interpret information that has been observed from a secondary view.
moderators gonna moderate </shrug>

Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #248 on: November 22, 2008, 10:07:25 pm »
I believe it may have to do with Fahrenheit 9/11 movie which presents a large number of facts either out of context or have their accuracy in dispute.  I do not know this for myself, but thats the impression I get from the few reviews I've read. 
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Offline DancingTofu

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #249 on: November 22, 2008, 10:08:39 pm »
Ah.  That's one I haven't seen any of.
moderators gonna moderate </shrug>