OBAMA WON!!!!!!!

[Wuntvor]

Well, seems to me that Moore was right to oppose the Iraq war.  So if we want talk credibility..    You want to know what the problem is?  Insurance companies don't make money by providing care .. they make money by denying it.  That's a sad fact and a reason I'm not very trusting of "for profit" health care.  Who are you?  You're just some schmuck to them.  But boy oh boy, if their stock holders aren't pleased then there's trouble.

I think these two clips from The Incredibles say it all:

I'm sorry I can't help you mam.

What about our stock holders, Bob? (slightly squashed, but I couldn't find an English version that wasn't)

Enjoy

[melchizedek]

I believe it may have to do with Fahrenheit 9/11 movie which presents a large number of facts either out of context or have their accuracy in dispute.  I do not know this for myself, but thats the impression I get from the few reviews I've read. 

Fahrenheit 9/11 is the one that gets the most flack.  Other parties made movies as rebuttals to his view "fahrenHYPE 9/11"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FahrenHYPE_9/11

Heck, there is even a wiki on Michael Moore controvercy.

Oh, and Michael Moore has been recieved lawsuits for his movies.

[Rathany]

Oh, and Michael Moore has been recieved lawsuits for his movies.

True.  And Oprah was sued for saying that she was scared to eat beef after a series of news stories about beef related illnessess.  It was a major, ongoing lawsuit.  You don't need to be in the wrong to be in receipt of a lawsuit. 

If a documentary filmmaker in the US isn't getting sued, s/he is doing something wrong

[Seraph]

like the person who spilled hot coffee herself?  or the one who planted a finger in their chili....

[melchizedek]

Oh, and Michael Moore has been recieved lawsuits for his movies.

True.  And Oprah was sued for saying that she was scared to eat beef after a series of news stories about beef related illnessess.  It was a major, ongoing lawsuit.  You don't need to be in the wrong to be in receipt of a lawsuit. 

If a documentary filmmaker in the US isn't getting sued, s/he is doing something wrong

Agreed to an extent, was just responding to someone post that said that Mr Moore wasn't getting sued and thus was completely correct.  I'm of the opinion that legal action does not nesicarly have anything to do with truth.  Seems like a poor litmis test in my opinion.

[Rathany]

Oh, and Michael Moore has been recieved lawsuits for his movies.

True.  And Oprah was sued for saying that she was scared to eat beef after a series of news stories about beef related illnessess.  It was a major, ongoing lawsuit.  You don't need to be in the wrong to be in receipt of a lawsuit. 

If a documentary filmmaker in the US isn't getting sued, s/he is doing something wrong

Agreed to an extent, was just responding to someone post that said that Mr Moore wasn't getting sued and thus was completely correct.  I'm of the opinion that legal action does not nesicarly have anything to do with truth.  Seems like a poor litmis test in my opinion.

Ah, ok, I was not following the threads of conversation well enough, then. 

While I was being a bit facetious in my comment, I do think that making a good documentary without any legal troubles would be hard to do in America.  Obviously, this would vary a bit based on subject matter, but still.  On anything that is a current social issue, I would expect lawsuits.  Maybe I am just jaded

[soundninja12]

I now I'm really late in saying this,
but
YES YES YES !!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wuntvor]

Agreed to an extent, was just responding to someone post that said that Mr Moore wasn't getting sued and thus was completely correct.  I'm of the opinion that legal action does not nesicarly have anything to do with truth.  Seems like a poor litmis test in my opinion.

That would be me.  I also agree with you.  I went and started reading the Michael Moore sited that talk about his films and argue against his claims.  I found that there is quite a bit against him out there.  As has been previousely stated this has mostly to do with his Fahrenheit 9/11 film.  Here are a couple of links that discuss his films in detail.

Michael Moore controversies

Dave Kopel - Fifty-nine Deceits in Fahrenheit 9/11

After reading these my opinion of Mr. Moore, is a little less than it was, but I still give him kudos for bringing to the attention of the US the many problems we have with believing everything we see on TV, even if it includes him.  And the subjects of his films, are definitely things that should be brought to the attention of the American public.

u.s. census good enough for y'all?
% of uninsured skyrockets:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/567737

deaths from lack of insurance:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/healthcare/2002-05-22-insurance-deaths.htm
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/?Article_ID=6684&page=article

confirmed by american medical association:
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2008/05/05/gvsc0505.htm

I love Michael Moore, he is one of my heroes. I couldn't care less who doesn't like him as a filmmaker, but anyone who thinks people don't die from lack of insurance is FULL OF @#$#.
I personally know of more than one person who died from lack of DENTAL CARE.

This is UNACCEPTABLE in this country or anywhere.

Rem, as much as I agree with you about Mr. Moore on his coverage of this issue, and his movie Sicko, before you make him one of your heroes you may want to take a closer look at his stand on Israel.  I think on that area you two are polar opposites.  From what I read, he has angered quite a few of the Jewish people.  I haven't researched this in any detail.

In short,  I will bow to the statement that Mr. Moore isn't a reliable source.  I still stand by my earlier examples from his film, though, as being actual examples of things that are wrong with the health care system.  I admitted already, that they may be biased examples, and not fairly representative of the health care system as a whole.  The facts still remain that people are dying because their health coverage won't pay for needed treatments, people have to determine which fingers to have re-attached (I suppose you can get them all done if you pay out of pocket), and people still pay $150 for an inhalent that they can get the generic version of for $0.05 in Cuba.  These facts still remain, as well as many other things that the movie brings up.

I think the closest that this subject has to do with Obama is the idea of socialized medicine.  I for one think it may be worth a try.  It definitely couldn't be worse.  I often read from the detractors of this that people have to wait long periods of time to get help, or that they have to schedule their appointments for urgent care, and may have to wait months.  Are you talking about Canada or the US?  It seems to me that most of that is true now for the majority of US citizens.  My wife has a number of contacts in Canada that she talks with regularly.  None of them ever had to wait more than 40 minutes to see a doctor.

I, personally, was having a bad reaction to my thyroid medication.  My entire body was shaking, and I was sweating, and tired, because of insomnia.  I called my doctors office, and was told my doctor was out, and that I could make an appointment to see a different doctor, how about 2 weeks from know?  When I told them I thought the problem was my medication dosage, they said I could go to an emergency room and pay my deductible to have someone who didn't know anything about my medical history make a determination about my medicine.  That people is a true account of US health care.

Oh and I missed work for 1 day.  I lost my $800 yearly perfect attendance bonus, because I didn't see a doctor, and I didn't have a physicians note stating I was sick.  Is that fair, or what?

[jaybug]

You got an attendance bonus? Or had the chance to get one at all, I mean? Best I ever had was if you were under a certain percentage, you DID get your annual pay increase. Miss too much work, you didn't get a raise.

If you want better info, look at PBS' Frontline. They had a health care show, and went all over the world, places where health care seems to work better for all citizens, and they showed some of the problems that Mr. Moore failed to mention in his film.

I don't think Mr. Spurlock was sued by McDonald's for his film Just Super-Size Me. If anything, The Big Mac was on his side, in saying that burger and fries are only PART of your diet, not all of it. And also have been going full bore into salads and other more healthful options.

Then there is that one guy in Ohio who has a Big Mac every day since they started making them. He's skinny as a rail. Saw it on the news a while back. I don't think he super sizes anything. They also didn't mention what he ate for the rest of his diet.

I think the difference between the two documentarians is one is politically motivated, the other not. Good science is a good idea!

Does anyone remember when Bush tried to limit malpractice lawsuits in order to decrease the insurance costs? Oh yeah, John Edwards and the other trial lawyers were able to defeat it. Lawyers trump doctors.

[melchizedek]

I agree with the mal practice insurance costs being outrageous. 

However, that's only part of the problem someone told me the biggest cost is the whole paperwork song and dance that billing and insurance do.  I consider myself conservative and don't like government sticking its nose into things unless it is absolutely necessary.  But for health care, the free market is not doing a good job of optimizing itself.

[jaybug]

Let's not forget all the hypochondriacs out there that drive up costs.

Anyway, my letter to the editor of the Register Guard was published today. Wheee! Got the lead off position again, too.

[Deviant Spider]

Let's not forget all the hypochondriacs out there that drive up costs.
 

True but if doctors didnt perscribe perscriptions just because it will make the patient happy, then they wouldnt believe they have half the problems that they do. Anymore doctors are in trouble with pharmasutical companies if they dont "Push" prescriptions, and all hypohondriacs know that when they go in, they get an automatic "fix me" prescription. Id love to actually see a doctor tell one of these people that they arent going to prescribe them somthing because theres nothing wrong with them. Instead they write those Rx's just as fast. Your right, hypchondriacs do drive up costs, and those who really avoid the doctor like the plague (myself) unless I REALLY need to go, suffer in the long run.

[RemSaverem]

Oh, and Michael Moore has been recieved lawsuits for his movies.

True.  And Oprah was sued for saying that she was scared to eat beef after a series of news stories about beef related illnessess.  It was a major, ongoing lawsuit.  You don't need to be in the wrong to be in receipt of a lawsuit. 

If a documentary filmmaker in the US isn't getting sued, s/he is doing something wrong

Agreed.

Wuntvor: I don't know anything about what Moore says about Israel. Given Emanuel as Chief of Staff, whose dad was in underground Zionist forces, and that Emanuel himself volunteered as a civilian in the Israeli Defense force in Gulf War I, etc., I'm feeling a little relief at not having to worry whether Obama would turn his back on Israel.
Now, how are you feeling? I'm sorry for your difficulty, but thank you for a classic example of what's wrong with this country's health care system, even for those who are employed and insured!

[Wuntvor]

Now, how are you feeling? I'm sorry for your difficulty, but thank you for a classic example of what's wrong with this country's health care system, even for those who are employed and insured!

(\__/)
(=','=)  It was only for the one day.  I still think it had to do with the increase in my dosage.  It just took my body awhile to adjust.

I am currently un-employed, and a student at LCC.  I am one of the 1116 Hynix employees that got let go.  Thanks to Trade Act, I am going back to school and learning about Network Operations and Support.  With luck I will be able to leave college and go right into a job.  I am also learning a little web design and programming, so I can continue designing websites.  Fun, Fun, Fun.

[Seraph]

@Deviant Spider
that reminds me of some of the bad practices with Antibiotics.
Remember reading a story where a mother wanted antibiotics for a cold in her child's ear.  The docter in the story was unique (for the time at least, I hear its getting better) in that he refused and tried to explain it wouldn't do anything.  Mother gets angrily chews him off and goes to find another doctor, "one that cares about children!"......>_>.....

[Radien]

Hmm... last page of topic not so Obama-ish... well, I'll roll with the punches.

I haven't seen a full Michael Moore film, but I've seen clips and heard interviews. So I'll keep my opinion proportionally short:

I think Michael Moore does want the truth. And in many cases he succeeds in calling attention to things that have been ignored, but shouldn't be. But often, he seems prone to make a serious mistake: in believing that the polar opposite of "wrong" is "right." (When I use the word "right," I'm talking about accuracy, not morality.) You can't be right merely by finding the most "wrong" person out there and saying the opposite of whatever they say. Accuracy isn't measured on a polar scale; it's more like pinpointing a location on a map. No... not even a map. A globe. Because globes wrap around.


Anyway, about health care: if nothing else, I feel confident that Obama is motivated to fix the system. This is because unlike many (most?) candidates, he has a moral, personal, and (to some extent) emotional prerogative to do so: his mother had to deal with the pitfalls of a flawed health care system right before she died, spending her final months arguing with insurance companies about "preexisting conditions." That sort of screwed up human response leaves a mark.

The problem with privatized health care is that success is measured by profit effectiveness. In order to maximize profits, you have to see clients as investments, and drop the "bad investments." This means the people who really need help the most are the first to go, regardless of whether it's their fault or not. Personally, I don't think this is acceptable for a civilized society. We need to go to reasonable lengths to take care of our sick.

[jaybug]

Let's just hope that Mr. Obama's plans can survive the impact that monied interests will throw up against ANY plan that is not the status quo. If it isn't fighting the HMOs, or the doctors, it will surely run afoul of the trial lawyers!

Maybe he ought to push for a really big change in the way we do health care for the next election cycle, so that politicians will want to be on that side as opposed to the monied interest side, eh?

And here I thought timing was everything ONLY in comedy.

[Washougal_Otaku]

I think Michael Moore does want the truth.

(blah blah blah)

Anyway, about health care: if nothing else, I feel confident that Obama is motivated to fix the system. This is because unlike many (most?) candidates, he has a moral, personal, and (to some extent) emotional prerogative to do so: his mother had to deal with the pitfalls of a flawed health care system right before she died, spending her final months arguing with insurance companies about "preexisting conditions." That sort of screwed up human response leaves a mark.

The problem with privatized health care is that success is measured by profit effectiveness. In order to maximize profits, you have to see clients as investments, and drop the "bad investments." This means the people who really need help the most are the first to go, regardless of whether it's their fault or not. Personally, I don't think this is acceptable for a civilized society. We need to go to reasonable lengths to take care of our sick.

I think Moore did want the truth, at first, but quickly sought out just to make everything about this country seem evil.  I think he does it now just to anger some people that he doesn't like for whatever reason.

As for Obama, I will agree that he wants to improve our healthcare system, but what he's been promising is one of the main reasons why I didn't vote for him.  Unless he's got some seriously complicated secret plan, he's gonna have to tax people like mad in order to create a universal healthcare system.  It takes money, people, money from the government that comes from taxpayers.  He's gonna have to break one promise in order to keep another, and that's assuming he keeps either one.

[DancingTofu]

What you have to understand when dealing with economics and taxes is that the top .1% is richer than the rest of the top 1%.  The top 1% is richer than the rest of the top 5%.  The top 5% is richer than the bottom 95% of the USA, Canada, and Europe combined.

Raising taxes to affect everyone as individuals lowers the threshold of benefit.  That threshold represents the difference between net loss and net gain.  Either you gain from the benefits of taxation or you lose.

Only those who are within that tiny margin are actually hurt by taxes that pay for services like education, health care, and emergency services.  Those who were above the threshold remain in the same situation as they were already in.  Those who were below the threshold benefit from it.

That is why communism has not worked properly ever.  The margin that occurs when taxes go from 20% to 100%, or even from 80% to 100%, is too large to justify the <5% who usually benefit from a completely communist economy.  As a formula, there is a shape similar to a bell curve that represents taxation.  There is an optimal value that will help the most people the most while taking away from as few people as possible by comparison.

Those who lose have everything they had before.  They won't collapse and die without that $300,000 out of their $30,000,000.  However, those who gain get something they didn't have before.  The $300 they pay to help everyone does them more good than the $3000 they paid just to help themselves.

The reason politicians are so hesitant to raise taxes is because they are sociologically detached from the matter.  They rely on the public voices.  And of course, the loudest of those voices will always be the ones who suddenly find themselves with a net loss where there was once a net gain.

You have to understand the concept of 300,000,000 to understand how powerful taxes can be.
If 300,000,000 people each took a turn to add 1 character to a novel, it would be 1000 times as long as the longest Harry Potter book.
If you made a bitmap image with 300,000,000 pixels, it would take up 71.5GB of space on your hard drive.
So how hard can it be for 300,000,000 people to help the 30,000,000 people who can't afford to help themselves?

[jaybug]

If you made a bitmap image with 300,000,000 pixels, it would take up 71.5GB of space on your hard drive.
So how hard can it be for 300,000,000 people to help the 30,000,000 people who can't afford to help themselves?

umm, 71.5 billion? sorry, just had to do that.

Anyway, I think all this talk about health care is going to prove moot. We have an unlimited amount of monies going to cardio-shock the economy, now and in the days to come. Obama has gotten an economic team together, not a health care team. I honestly don't think he is going to be able to do much of anything. Unless he can get it spun into an economic stimulus plan.

Ya know, I wish we could do things bit by bit, but I know that is insane to expect. As soon as whatever is out of sight, it's out of mind too. They throw money once, and that is supposed to solve everything. See Charlie Wilson's War about Afghanistan to underline this point. Because it was not a one off exception.

What I mean is to have health care for all children and the elderly first. Get those two groups covered, as they are less able, unable to provide for themselves, so that we can have a better understanding of the costs that the rest of us are going to have to pay. And we can then decide if the price is far too high, or we can bite the bullet.

And yes, people should save up for rainy days, such as retirement, instead of partying it all away, or keeping in debt up to their eyeballs.

Or, oh nevermind. I am just going to get nihilistic if I continue. sigh

[DancingTofu]

Nope, 75.6 billion.  Gibibytes, not Gigabytes.

[kurosakiichigo666]

I personally think that as soon as we fix the healthcare problem, then we'll be right on track to recovery. I also think that the housing market needs some serious help too as that alone is the cause for a lot of jobs. But that's just my opinion. Oh and moot means "arguable: open to argument or debate". Another grammar pet-peeve of mine, sorry.

[jaybug]

http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/00315506?query_type=word&queryword=moot&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&search_id=qb6D-LzUvb2-15610&result_place=1 


  2. N. Amer. (orig. Law). Of a case, issue, etc.: having no practical significance or relevance; abstract, academic.
  Now the usual sense in North America.

[Wuntvor]

http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/00315506?query_type=word&queryword=moot&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&search_id=qb6D-LzUvb2-15610&result_place=1 


  2. N. Amer. (orig. Law). Of a case, issue, etc.: having no practical significance or relevance; abstract, academic.
  Now the usual sense in North America.

Jay, your link to the Oxford dictionary requires a subscription.  I went to Wiktionary and found that both of you are correct:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/moot

Although whether or not it makes a difference is moot.   

[Washougal_Otaku]

I personally think that as soon as we fix the healthcare problem, then we'll be right on track to recovery.

Again, if it gets fixed.  And Tofu, no offense, but taxing in general angers people; that's why politicians normally try to stear clear of it, unless the proposition can be made to look really good.

Take I-1029 for example.  For those of you who don't know what that is, it was a bill-thingy being voted on in Washington that, in major summary, would have those working in a certain service care providing occupation, to undergo a buttload of unnecessary training.  It passed by 70something percent.  It was a stupid move by Washingtonians, but the proposal, as presented with the election ballots, is written in a way that makes it look good, without going into detail on why it's an evil thing we just passed.

Again, Obama is going to have to tax us if we're going to even come close to getting the healthcare plan he's wanting; it doesn't matter how much the top .1% makes, or the 1%, or even the top 10%.  We're all gonna get taxed in order for it to work.

[DancingTofu]

No offense taken; that's exactly the majority I'm arguing against.  The people who think that taxes are hurting them are the people who are trying to pay their way through college (of course, those people are actually getting rather gratuitous funding from the state), or who went hungry in the name of a massive "police action" in Vietnam.  Or who, for whatever reason, found themselves paying taxes for something destructive, controversial, or irrelevant.  Universal healthcare will benefit roughly 90% of the citizen population.  The remaining 10% has enough wealth that they don't need Universal Healthcare, and will likely continue to pay for private healthcare services.  Only a small portion of people near the bottom of that upper 10% (or however much it actually is) will actually suffer from implementing Universal Healthcare.

People have this mindset that the government is always wrong and wants to hurt them.  If that were the case, nobody would get re-elected.  The entire point of democracy is that the government comes from an open pool of candidates.  People let the system go to waste by obsessing over the ideas of being a Democrat or a Republican.  Individualism is lost and party politics corrupt the process.  That's no fault of politicians.  That's the fault of a bi-partisan majority.  "The Man" won't hold you down.  The police might, but if the president ever comes up to you while you're at a peace rally and tells you, "hey, no protesting!" and tackles you, I'll be very surprised.

So what I'm saying is that people need to kill that mindset that taxes are a bad thing.  Ever heard the term taxation without representation?  It's what lost the British their 13 colonies in 1776.  Universal Healthcare is a form of taxation with complete representation.

[RemSaverem]

Uh, no. Getting the free health care would mean they were represented. I.e. that their own interests were benefitted.
Wuntvor, glad you're adjusting...both to the meds & the layoffs...can you tell me more about this Trade Act that helps people go back to school? Does it apply to only those who get laid off en masse? What about those who can't get hired because of a glut of overqualified people in their field? I'd love to get some paid retraining myself......

[Wuntvor]

Uh, no. Getting the free health care would mean they were represented. I.e. that their own interests were benefitted.
Wuntvor, glad you're adjusting...both to the meds & the layoffs...can you tell me more about this Trade Act that helps people go back to school? Does it apply to only those who get laid off en masse? What about those who can't get hired because of a glut of overqualified people in their field? I'd love to get some paid retraining myself......

The Trade Act stepped in because Hynix is a Korean Company (it is an offshoot of Hyundai).  When they pulled out of Eugene they took their only US fab and closed it down.  Since the US workers can't relocate to Korea, and go to work in one of the other Hynix fabs, this makes us eligible for TA assistance.  Hynix had to formally request this assistance in order to receive it, and each employee has to file paperwork, and be approved, before getting any.  This took months.   

For the most part, it is really nice.  Have a lot of paperwork to do up front, but once you get in the program there are a lot of benefits for you.  It is a lot like the socialized education they have in Germany, and other countries.  They will pay for your education and schooling, but you have to pick your field of endeavour and not change.  If you decide to change your degree half way through.. (SLICE).  no more coverage.  Also they want to see you in a job, in your chosen field, directly after you graduate from school.  I also have to fax a form to Salem every week signed by a school official, stating 'Yes, Terry did attend all of his scheduled classes this week."  Along with the usual, no I didn't quit/get fired from a job, get some other form of income, leave the area, etc.  So, Yes, I am getting an all expenses paid education, but I have to prove myself worthy of it, and no slacking!  I'm also 45 years old.  Feels sort of strange to be back in college.  I need a persocom.  "Terry.  Do your best!  Gambare!  Fight-on!"   

Oh, and I currently have no medical at all for me or my family, and my son is also in college.

[jaybug]

Since all y'all are so into health care, at what level is it going to be rationed? Like the Oregon health plan? Where if you are on unemployment, you make too much money and are thus unable to be on the plan? And that year I made a whopping 10k! Great, free care to the people who stand on every street corner here in Eugene, and nothing for everyone else. Do you think the homeless population will explode or what? Or as you are speaking nationally we can expect a flood of illegals from just about everywhere, right?

Have we not noticed how so many people are lining up for free bailouts for a mere 700 billion, and no one is going to be showing up for free health care? Release the hounds! It's going to be like the shopping malls will be tomorrow morning, EVERY FREAKING DAY!

As far as my experience goes, Kaiser is the best example of what we can hope for. But it is going to be operated by the same people who brought you New Orleans after hurricane Katrina. Does anyone see the problem with that? HELLOOOOOOOOooooooooo!

What I hear you saying sounds nice, but you haven't overcome the obstacles of HMOs, trial lawyers, or even the AMA, who are all going to want to be front and center when the checks are being written out. Remember we're talkin' real money here, people tend to forget about serve the public good, when it comes to a new Lexus in MY driveway. capiche?

I think it a worthy goal to provide for all. But..............I think Haiti colonizing Mars is more probable.

[DemonSpawn]

This is like, the debate thread now.

[Mentally Hilarious]

This is like, the debate thread now.

They make my head hurt. X.X

[DemonSpawn]

I think its interesting.

[RemSaverem]

Wuntvor, thanks for the details.
Jaybug, I don't reply to empty hyperbole; it's not worth the time away from my boyfriend. However, I'm curious if you are implying a link between Kaiser and New Orleans' chaos??

[Radien]

Umm...

*cough*


...Just thought this article might prove useful.

[jaybug]

Umm, Kaiser is a private entity. FEMA is a public entity. If we have nationalized health care, who will run it, public or private? As far as I know, Kaiser works, at least if you have kids. FEMA doesn't work. Even if Brownie isn't in charge anymore. Look at how nothing is getting done after hurricane Ike.

We need can do, not can't. Government is full of can't. And I don't think they'd let the Marines take over, who  are one government entity whose motto is "can do" as well as siempre fidelis.

[melchizedek]

Marines do humanitarian missions too, why couldn't they?

[jaybug]

Either the Posse Commitatus Act, or the inability to use common sense. Gotta be one or the other.

Actually I had been thinking about a what if, using the DoD medical personnel to perform emergency and other care in urban and under insured areas to ameliorate conditions. We did send a hospital ship to New Orleans after Katrina.

[Prinz Eugen]

Here we go - the best way to prevent government form getting more out of you is to STOP generating anything above the level below which they "let" you live: Or if they take from the rich and give to the poor, well it's obvious that people can at least SURVIVE at whatever level they call 'the poor.' As in, the fifty-something percent who earn modest, low incomes and pay LITTLE to NO TAXES. So, once a big-money generator quits and decides to work at Oil Can Henry's part time, he can multiply the collapsing effect of his former income NOT being available to be transferred to all those stupid liberal hand-out programs - especially if he's a top-5% earner paying half his income or more to programs that only make his life difficult?

This was called 'going on strike' in the book 'Atlas Shrugged.' Guess what happens when engineers, intelligent and effective managers, small businessmen, and top sales guys QUIT, and take up jobs flipping waffles and sweeping floors?

Anyways - here's another businessman, who's decided to NOT to play with the socialists and greenie-weenies, but pick up his marbles and go home instead:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/12/blame_me_for_job_losses.html

Killer quotes:

"November 2008 job losses belong to "The Office of the President Elect." I know. I caused some of them, and I know why."

"It is no secret that owners circulated endless emails leading up to election day discussing lay off plans were Obama to win.  Entrepreneurs instinctively understand the danger posed by larger liberal majorities in power. The risk-reward equation and fierce independence spirit of start up businesses are anathema to the class warfare, equality of outcome and spread the wealth mentality of the left."

These guys and their ilk have two Latin words to tell Obama: "Non serviam."

[jaybug]

You just described what most of the homeless people I have ever known in my life feel about things.

Here we go - the best way to prevent government form getting more out of you is to STOP generating anything above the level below which they "let" you live: Or if they take from the rich and give to the poor, well it's obvious that people can at least SURVIVE at whatever level they call 'the poor.' As in, the fifty-something percent who earn modest, low incomes and pay LITTLE to NO TAXES. So, once a big-money generator quits and decides to work at Oil Can Henry's part time, he can multiply the collapsing effect of his former income NOT being available to be transferred to all those stupid liberal hand-out programs - especially if he's a top-5% earner paying half his income or more to programs that only make his life difficult?

So are you talking about the people who can afford to work for $1 per year? I don't think that will do much, as they can obviously suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, at least for one year. They have maybe not achieved Nirvana, but an even more lofty position, the Alfred E. Newman height of "What me worry?"

[jaybug]

Just to dredge this up again, as it is less than 24 hours until he takes the oath of office.

Are you going to be watching all of the goings on, as it happens while most people on the west coast are on their morning commute.

Oh, and it's funny to watch and listen to conservatives now. Some are playing ultra conservative obstructionists, and some seem actually excited to have Obama become president.

What gets me is that the far right, and the far left, are having trouble with the stimulus package. The left because "priming the pump" was originated by John Maynard Keynes back during the Great Depression, and yes, he was a liberal, and the theory is a liberal policy, but it works. President Bush did this in 2001 with his tax cuts, and allowed congress to spend like drunken sailors. We did get out of the dot com bubble burst recession. But instead of stopping the bleeding, congress kept spending, and not trying to fix things they knew would later be hurtful. The GOP could have done a lot more to fix Fannie and Freddie, but were afraid to as they would easily be seen as meanies out to hurt the lower classes, and thus voted out of office. One senate fillibuster would have done much to alleviate the housing problem, but no....they hoped to play gotcha politics later when things went wrong. Too bad things went so far, that no one dreamed it could get so bad, so fast. It was too little too late to get any traction, and the GOP had no plans for restoring our economy, and they had no firm contacts with people like Warren Buffet, or Paul Volker, they're Democrats, and it was an election year. Oops.

But now the far right wants to not spend a dime on anything as far as stimulus, except maybe for tax cuts. This is also wrong. To follow their lead would be to lengthen and deepen the recession until is is another great depression. Banks and Insurance giants would collapse, then Detroit, then even more homeowners, more jobs lost, taking the American economy with it. And probably like the Great Depression, it would take a major world war to get us out of it. Even China wouldn't be able to loan us enough money to restore us.

I hope you took time to serve today, if you aren't working your normal job.

[oslapedo]

If I didn't have finals tomorrow we would probably be watching it in my classes. Finals... -_-

[Washougal_Otaku]

Oh, and it's funny to watch and listen to conservatives now. Some are playing ultra conservative obstructionists, and some seem actually excited to have Obama become president.

As a conservative, I'm standing by the same thing I said when he was the nominated candidate for the Democratic party.  So long as he goes a good job, that's what I'm concerned about.  If I didn't have to do my t'ai chi class & work afterwards, I would probably only watch to see if someone will attempt to take him out.  Whether they succeed or fail, that could have a greater impact on our future than anything Obama has claimed he would do.

[jaybug]

I really hope that doesn't happen. Tomorrow, or any other day. Why do our leaders get assassinated, when the real dirtbags live forever?

[Washougal_Otaku]

I'd like to see him go through this term, too; I only wish for thses types of things on those who truly deserve it, like Saddam Hussein.  Oh, wait, that did happen.  But that's another discussion altogether.

Anyway, someone's gonna at least attempt to get him sooner or later.  Why?  He's 1/8 African.  Don't give me that 1/2 stuff, because it ain't true.  His father was 1/4 Kenyan and 3/4 Arab.

[Blackstar]

Full to sum this all up we are getting a good democrat back into office. WOOT I am so excited

[jaybug]

Yeah, that's pretty much an oxymoron, good-Democrat! lol Try the word RARE! He does seem to be trying to work across the aisle with GOP members. And having to fight his own party more than not.

I guess that's what it takes to be a centrist nowadays, eh? And so I think he may actually get a lot done.

How long before Mario Cuomo gets into the Supreme Court? And Who retires, Stevens, Kennedy, or Ginsburg? Little Washou is taking bets. lol

[Washougal_Otaku]

I am?

Uh, I mean.. I am!

Wait, isn't the Supreme Court a lifetime position?  Or am I thinking of something else?

[jaybug]

Yes it is, appointed by the president. All federal judges positions are lifetime appointments. Why the 9th circus court of appeals will probably never be normal in our lifetimes.

So who will retire first from the Supreme Court, Stevens, Kennedy, or Ginsburg, or someone else? And whom will president Obama appoint?