24 Hour Con

[u2205]

So I know that we've been told that "WE CAN'T DO THIS. IT TIPPLES THE COST OF OUR INSURANCE!!!" but I've really been wondering how much the triple cost insurance costs? Does it triple for $400 to $1200 or from like $2000 to $6000 because that would make a huge difference in the matter. I know that we've raised our prices by $5 this year and it think most everyone would be willing to pay another extra $5 in the coming years to have a 24hour con. (Assuming a 5000 con-goers that's a total of $25,000 which seems like more than enough)

The board has also raised concerns that the staff won't be able to handle the extra hours, but I think this is totally wrong. I generally stay up talking to people until the wee hours of the morning (usually around 5AM) and during that time I seem about half of the staff members still awake and just hanging out. We have a really dedicated staff and I believe that they are ready and able to have the extra 8hours to make us 24 hour con.

[kylite]

I know for a fact that the Yojimbo would not be able to handle it.  The few you see still up in the wee hours usually pass out during the day to make up for the time spent up at night. Its just heavily taxing on the human body. Con-goers need sleep, panelists need sleep, staff NEED sleep.

[DancingTofu]

I think that the majority of all fully considered arguments would disagree that a 24-hour con is not within the limits of Kumoricon, however, in every case, the universal binding issue is that we don't have enough staff.  This is also one of the dead-end issues for many other things people have brushed off as wishful thinking.  I believe that it is vitally important that, in the coming years, we focus heavily on increasing our staff and eliminating rollover.

[RemSaverem]

Regardless of whether we ever go to a 24-hr con (or to just a room or two being open all night, not the whole con...), I would like to see some attention to the idea of staff and panelist retention. Perhaps if any staff do not return, or have any issues, there could be a designated person whose role is comparable to a personnel manager conducting exit interviews: identifying what the major concerns are that decrease staff and panelist retention. This could even be done very passively, for example with a form attached to the website that someone could download, fill out, and send in by snail mail anonymously if they wanted to air concerns but without being identified, and potentially even to a convention address without knowing who would read it. Just a thought....Realistically, if you thought it was hard keeping staff when we had a decent economy, it's going to be harder now.....but we might not have as monumental a growth spurt year, accordingly....

[kylite]

$10 x 100 staffers = $1000

now consider con suite where staffers get food to survive the con.

nuff said

[RemSaverem]

I don't think it's the $10 that would make a difference. But I know for me, I can't pay to always commute to meetings in Portland. My bad that I haven't learned to Skype, but I'm not sure how viable that is anyway......

I think that we get a lot for our $10. We get access to additional levels of the forum, the ability to vote, access to staff preservation, and a T-shirt. Realistically that probably adds up to more than $10 for most (depending on whether and how much they eat or drink)....

I think negotiating staff discounts for hotel rooms would be a huge help (not sure how much that's already done, nor how it's decided who gets to access the discounted rooms).

Anyway, to be back on target--I'm not sure how much need there is for the con to go 24 hours, compared to what the toll could be (beyond the fiscal; the physical) of attempting it. I'm open to ideas, and I could probably get the CS staffed way later if that were needed, relatively easily (SC '05, we ran Bedtime Stories (and related spontaneous contests) for about 10 hours--really.)

[oslapedo]

Honestly as a congoer, the thought of a 24-hour con is a bit depressing. I need sleep to function but I'd be upste about missing events while I was asleep.

Also I can imagine staff and yojimbo getting fatigued if they have to work longer shifts ;-;

[tofutakeout]

If its like that I see it as they stay up because they didn't have much socializing time during the day. And some of the staff that are still up might have just left from an after midnight event. Or they couldn't get to sleep, con in the past has made me have insomnia.

I agree with oslapedo on the matter of needing sleep however. I really need sleep during cons. no sleep makes this cosplayer the worst person you would want to be near that day. And I would also feel bad about missing events while sleeping, then it would just cause more stress to try to plan to get to bed early to have enough sleep, then get up, get ready and get to the early event. :/

[DancingTofu]

Anything specific scheduled from 2-6 would be easter egg events; just stuff for fun.  I think the main things that are being looked at for 24-hour operation are the Game Rooms, Viewing Rooms, and the Creation Station.  We probably wouldn't have panelists or Live Events going on in the dead hours.

[kalira]

So I know that we've been told that "WE CAN'T DO THIS. IT TIPPLES THE COST OF OUR INSURANCE!!!" but I've really been wondering how much the triple cost insurance costs? Does it triple for $400 to $1200 or from like $2000 to $6000 because that would make a huge difference in the matter. I know that we've raised our prices by $5 this year and it think most everyone would be willing to pay another extra $5 in the coming years to have a 24hour con. (Assuming a 5000 con-goers that's a total of $25,000 which seems like more than enough)

It is closer to the 2000k then the 400.  This is being worked on and if things go right we should be able to have a 24 hour con.  The reasoning for this is it will come out to be cheaper or break even this year when you factor in MINI events like dances and minicons.  I am still fighting over details on this and it is real slow going an insurancing companys are not used to providing insurance for our event as it does not fit into one of there cookie cutter molds.  More then likely if we do go 24 hours this year I would assume that some, not all events will be 24 hour.  Viewing rooms and other things that don't need lots of yojis and staff to run full time.  Again, we shall see.  Once the insurace is finalized, I will give ya'll the news.   

[Deviant Spider]

ACK NO! I allready had to run the Hentai Viewing from 10-2am. 4 hours of hentai was WAY too much! Do you have any clue how long Hentai would or could run in a 24 hour setting? Im thinking it would be like midnight till 10 to 5 am! *Im sure if Jaki is reading this she is laughing at my misery* LOL! I will need many more Adult Content staffers! Im sure the curfew will still be the same for the young-ins as that is statewide wich means it only would affect the adults, and it was proven last year that we can pack rooms late at night.

(Of course this isnt a serious complaint, just a potentially staffing concern, like all the above ones that have been mentioned.)

[JeffT]

Personally I think a way to attract staff more would be giving them free admittance to the con. We give panelists, guests, industry, and super-cool-people free entrance to the con; so why no give the people who work the hardest to make things possible free entrance also? I know that $10 isn't that big of a deal, but I still think that it would make a difference in staffing numbers.

A minor correction...panelists don't get free admission (it may have been done in certain cases if the person was notable from industry or somewhere else, but not in general), and the cost I think is $20 to attend as a panelist.

However, you're right, having staff be free is something to consider and makes more and more sense as the con gets larger and it's less impacting on the budget. I was glad that this year, we decided to make sure that attendees who have already pre-registered, who then upgrade to staff, always get an adjustment in the form of a refund of the difference, which wasn't the case in any previous year.

[RemSaverem]

Thanks for the details, everyone, and for the advocacy and future update, David.

[nikkiolie]

So there could be a 24 hour con? would it be this one or next one....or not even for a few years?

[Deviant Spider]

So there could be a 24 hour con? would it be this one or next one....or not even for a few years?

Contracts are still in negotiation for THIS year, so it is a possibility for this year. But nothing has been confirmed yet as to "can we or cant we" and then the Board will still need to discuss it. It will be a little bit till they can say for sure. Keep your fingers crossed. 

[nikkiolie]

I will. Not that I stay up too late but it would be nice to have that option XD

[kalira]

Insurance people suck.... They take forever..... Still working on this.... I need quotes....  GIVE ME YOUR QUOTES!!!!!  That is all... more on this when people get back to me.

[Trumby]

Pfft, Mustash you know none of us need to be told we can stay up

That would just give us something more to do during the con

[StarryShay]

I like this idea. As long as I have some form of sugar, I can stay up. :3

[Trumby]

Pfft, Mustash you know none of us need to be told we can stay up

That would just give us something more to do during the con

There are usually quite a few of us chilling in the lobby of the hotel until the wee hours of the morning... lol

Oh I know, I was there this year, at least most of the night one of the nights

[DancingTofu]

I don't need sleep as long as someone's dancing, intoxicated, and/or singing in Russian.  That usually produces enough energy that I can stay up regardless of whether my body thinks it's tired or not.

[RemSaverem]

Singing in Russian?
Er...I could only help in English, Spanish, Hebrew, or Yiddish. Who sings in Russian??

[Deviant Spider]

lol at an Anime Convention none the less....

[RemSaverem]

lol at an Anime Convention none the less....

For the record, I looked up whether anyone could be cosplaying an anime / manga / gaming character who speaks Russian. I found, so far, only:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Planetes
Has a Russian character named Yuri.
& a game called Shadow Hearts: Covenant, where Russian is among the languages spoken by a girl named Karin.

[Rathany]

lol at an Anime Convention none the less....

For the record, I looked up whether anyone could be cosplaying an anime / manga / gaming character who speaks Russian. I found, so far, only:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Planetes
Has a Russian character named Yuri.
& a game called Shadow Hearts: Covenant, where Russian is among the languages spoken by a girl named Karin.

Hrm... Russian Speaking Anime Chars ...  There is that one guy, the decendant of Rasputin in Crystal Triangle, who speaks Russian.  Who else? 


Erm... this is likely getting off-topic. 

[RemSaverem]

.......except that this is precisely the type of otaku trivia that folks who do stay up all night at a con would delight in pursuing (in my direct experience from SC '05).

[Rathany]

That makes me think of another 24-con issue.  People thinking "Hey, I don't need room, I can sleep in con space.  This is what viewing rooms are for, right?"

Err... not that *I* have ever done such a thing ... ummm.... at Kcon at least. 

[RemSaverem]

Let's not kid ourselves, that definitely will happen.

[TomtheFanboy]

The patrol yojimbo should be issued a poking stick with a very flexible foam finger on the end that cannot be used to administer more than the "gentle pressure" demonstrated during the yojimbo training. then they don't have to risk physically touching the more frightening otaku and can be a bit safer waking up the ninjas with the automatic kill response.

Honestly, we HAVE staff that will be up all night anyway we might as well put them to work for the convention. It's just a matter of forcing them to go to sleep when they're relieved of duty and not "when they're tired".

[melchizedek]

it's what plants crave

[DancingTofu]

it's what plants crave

One of the best running jokes on here.

Anyway, it is pretty inevitable that people will wind up sleeping in con space at a 24-hour con, but as long as they aren't spreading diseases and we don't have a specific clause in our hotel contract that says "we will not allow attendees to sleep in con space and will prevent them from doing so," is it really that much of a problem?  As long as people are finding obscure places to crash and not taking over the lobby with tents and sleeping bags, I think we can just be passive about it.  Wake people up if we find them sleeping, but don't hunt them down.  Hell, when one of the hotel staff stumbled upon me and Wade by the bag check he actually said that, if we didn't have rooms, it would have been fine for us to be sleeping there.  I don't really expect all (or any) of the hotel staff to have that sort of attitude towards sleepers, but sleeping is generally a pretty harmless thing for people to do.

[BangBangNeko]

I am not a morning person. As you can see by what time it is when I'm writing this. 24 hour con is a insomniacs wet dream. And if you need adult supervision I could help out. ( I'm the old man of bangbangneko)

[nikkiolie]

it's what plants crave

One of the best running jokes on here.

Anyway, it is pretty inevitable that people will wind up sleeping in con space at a 24-hour con, but as long as they aren't spreading diseases and we don't have a specific clause in our hotel contract that says "we will not allow attendees to sleep in con space and will prevent them from doing so," is it really that much of a problem?  As long as people are finding obscure places to crash and not taking over the lobby with tents and sleeping bags, I think we can just be passive about it.  Wake people up if we find them sleeping, but don't hunt them down.  Hell, when one of the hotel staff stumbled upon me and Wade by the bag check he actually said that, if we didn't have rooms, it would have been fine for us to be sleeping there.  I don't really expect all (or any) of the hotel staff to have that sort of attitude towards sleepers, but sleeping is generally a pretty harmless thing for people to do.

Yeah I don't see it as being a problem. As long as people aren't causing issues what is the big deal? I would sleep at the con even if it wasn't a 24 hour con XD

[dshwshr55]

it's what plants crave

One of the best running jokes on here.

Anyway, it is pretty inevitable that people will wind up sleeping in con space at a 24-hour con, but as long as they aren't spreading diseases and we don't have a specific clause in our hotel contract that says "we will not allow attendees to sleep in con space and will prevent them from doing so," is it really that much of a problem?  As long as people are finding obscure places to crash and not taking over the lobby with tents and sleeping bags, I think we can just be passive about it.  Wake people up if we find them sleeping, but don't hunt them down.  Hell, when one of the hotel staff stumbled upon me and Wade by the bag check he actually said that, if we didn't have rooms, it would have been fine for us to be sleeping there.  I don't really expect all (or any) of the hotel staff to have that sort of attitude towards sleepers, but sleeping is generally a pretty harmless thing for people to do.

Yeah I don't see it as being a problem. As long as people aren't causing issues what is the big deal? I would sleep at the con even if it wasn't a 24 hour con XD

The problem is, people can then only pay for one day at the con and stay there the whole time.... assuming they don't go to major events.
Maybe even sneak in prior..?

[DancingTofu]

I think they'd have trouble keeping Yojis from noticing that they have a one-day badge.  It's not like a movie theater.

One way to prevent people from sneaking in an lurking in one spot is to run everything on a triangular shift.  Have each viewing room open for staggered 7-hour intervals then close them for a full hour to straighten out chairs, clean up food wrappers, etc.  Then open for another seven hours, etc.  That's pretty much what I did for gaming at MEW Con because I had two rooms right next to each other, so at least one of them was open at any point when the schedule said gaming was open, but we had no trouble keeping both of them monitored, cleaned, and inventoried because we'd close one room or the other down periodically to tidy up and make sure everything's exactly as we want it.

[nikkiolie]

yeah the one day badges are easily noticed. And I like the idea of closing the viewing rooms down.

My question would be when does one day end? At midnight? Seems logical but they might make it longer if it becomes a 24 hour con.

[JeffT]

Changing to 24 hours doesn't really affect enforcement. Curfew kicks in at midnight anyway with our current schedule, so a sweep through the video rooms is needed. You don't need to close the rooms--you can do a 1-minute sweep with the lights on and pause the video or just keep it running.

Badge checks are done at event rooms, not venue entrances, so to stow away for the entire weekend with a day badge means you would need to stay in a single room overnight and beyond--and in a room where no sweep or badge checks are performed.

I would think that for single-day badges, the cutoff would be late, like between 4-6am.

[nikkiolie]

That sounds a little more reasonable. ^_^

[oslapedo]

So a 24-hour con wouldn't even effect minors at all? Disregard any of my comments then!

[nikkiolie]

there would still be a curfew for them from what I understand >_>

so I guess that is no different from what it is now XD

[oslapedo]

A few more years and I'll be able to enjoy the con as an adult! =,D

[nikkiolie]

I have never been to a con where I couldn't go into some events
 
I would say it isn't that great but I haven't tried the other side

[JeffT]

So a 24-hour con wouldn't even effect minors at all? Disregard any of my comments then!

The curfew would probably end earlier in the morning, such as at 5 or 6am. Then you could enter the con sooner than the current 8am.

[nikkiolie]

that would be nice as well. If people are like me then they might have a hard time sleeping during a con so being able to get there earlier would make it so much nicer.

[DancingTofu]

Well, since you're over 18, the curfew ending earlier wouldn't really effect when you'd be able to get there unless you're physically attached to a minor.

[nikkiolie]

yeah, and I wont be physically attached to one. I am hoping to have a hotel room so I can just dump the minors there

[xxxchihiroxxx]

xD so for minors we have to stay in our rooms from 12am to 4am?

and if we get caught just hangin around in the lobby what exactly would happen?O_o cause the lobby isnt really a restricted place i dont think, we could be there as just normal guests

[JeffT]

xD so for minors we have to stay in our rooms from 12am to 4am?

and if we get caught just hangin around in the lobby what exactly would happen?O_o cause the lobby isnt really a restricted place i dont think, we could be there as just normal guests

I would guess the curfew would not affect anywhere that the public can go, so the lobby would probably not be affected. I kept pointing out to people that it made no sense in Kumoricon's earlier days to state that it has a "12am-4am curfew" when the con is not even open past 2am. Finally the policies got changed to eliminate that one area of confusion.

[xxxchihiroxxx]

xD i may just go to the lobby in the morn before the game room is open to me again >.>

i dont sleep much at these things :3

[Trumby]

Everyone should keep this in mind, though: http://www.portlandonline.com/police/index.cfm?a=193643&c=46713

Though I am not sure if that applies to hotel lobbies and such.