Mario Kart

[DancingTofu]

So, this last weekend I finally had a chance to seriously check out Mario Kart Double Dash and Mario Kart Wii and get decent at them.  I know there are at least a few other Mario Kart fans on these forums who have competed in Mario Kart tournaments at Kumoricon, and I wanted to discuss a few things:

First of all, my impression, after playing both Double Dash and Wii, was that Mario Kart 64 is far more competitively geared than either when it comes to items.  Here are my issues with items:
-Wii:
~Missile -- WAY too overpowered; it's a star on crack.
~Lightning (personal) -- This item is just silly unless you're in 4th through 10th.
~Blue Shell -- only hits 1st, sometimes 2nd if they're too close.  It doesn't move along the track and take out other players, so it's effectively a "swap 2nd and 1st" item.  It doesn't seem to really help the people who get it.
~Lightning and POW -- These are just nasty items in general with even nastier effects depending on where you are.  They totally inhibit the game.
~Squid -- mostly just obnoxious.  The likelihood of it screwing someone up is random, because the only good players who are going to suffer from it are ones who happen to have a banana peel or bomb hiding in the middle splotch.
-Double Dash:
~No shielding
~No triple (except mushroom?)
~Most of the specials are either silly or worthless -- they don't contribute to serious, competitive play.

And I noticed that (at least on the Wii), they have various item modes.  "No Items" would make the race kind of bland -- it would be a drifting/wheelie competition, really.  What about "Strategic" and "Aggressive"?  Do those just change the LIKELIHOOD of certain items popping up, or do they adjust the actual items that appear (i.e. no retarded last place items like those listed above)?  I didn't have a chance to review them personally.

The N64 game has its own flaws.  Primarily, shortcuts and picture quality (it's old 5th gen, so no big surprise there).  I'd rather not see it for competitive play for these reasons.  I like the character balances, the tracks when you aren't using shortcuts, and play mechanics though.  The selection of items is also fantastic, although lightning has always been annoying. :/

I've heard numerous very talented Kart racers say that MKWii is not appropriate for tournament play.  I noticed that multiplayer lacks lap and race times, which really bothers me, since time is a key function for racing games.  The assortment of ridiculous items available also makes me wary.

I've also found that interacting with computer players is a proportional test of one's skill, in addition to racing against real opponents, or doing time trials.  What do people think about computer players during tournaments?  I enjoy playing with computer players because they provide me with distance markers when trying to catch up with an opponent after falling behind; I regard them as generally inconsequential.

Finally, what are peoples' attitudes towards teams and doubles?

Thanks all,
-DT

P.S.
Who has run the Mario Kart tournaments in the past?  I'd like to know who I ought to be sharing this info with.

[xxxchihiroxxx]

i loooooooovvvveee mario kart wii xP

it does have its faults I'll admit that.

Ive only played double dash and wii. i find both really fun.

for me the thing with wii is i get to use the stearing wheel which for me is a hell of a lot wasyer than the analog stick, also adds a sense of realisum to the game cause you really cant stop for a minute and do something else with your hand or you fly off the track.

as far as items go? missile I think is pretty damn funny, when your just playing with a friend then its a hell of a fun item to have, and wii is generally more geared to just friendly combat not tournaments.

however wii is also fun in the fact that you can play it with others in diffrent places.

all in all I do not think wii is a very sutiable game if your going to have a tournament. specially in one room. four players cramed together are going to have a hard time finding room to steer whilst staying in range of the motion detector.

[Kurokaizoku]

for me the thing with wii is i get to use the stearing wheel which for me is a hell of a lot wasyer than the analog stick, also adds a sense of realisum to the game cause you really cant stop for a minute and do something else with your hand or you fly off the track.

Did you mean you fly off the track with the wheel? Because that isn't the case. I played while holding a squirmy baby one handed. Not well but I didn't fly off track.

all in all I do not think wii is a very sutiable game if your going to have a tournament. specially in one room. four players cramed together are going to have a hard time finding room to steer whilst staying in range of the motion detector.

Not really valid. It's not a motion detector. It has to do with infrared signals. You can play without the sensor bar entirely. Haven't tried Kart that way but still. It works.

Also, They wouldn't be crammed together. You JUST said they can play it with others in different places. You have a decent spreadout in front of the TV. Some prefer to use a GC controller either wireless or wired to play. So yes, they would have to be closer to the Wii but if your using a wheel you can space out. Like in a front/back row.

[xxxchihiroxxx]

^you have skill, i was on the track warios gold mine and my mom needed something, with out noticing i droped the wheel and I fell off the track >_> course thats an easy track to fall off of

and well id dint know that much about the sensor/infared signals so you have a poin there.

and didnt think about it that way ._. thats actualy a really good way to play the tournament.

[DancingTofu]

I personally only play with the GC controller (or N64 controller on the N64 of course).  The Wiimote just doesn't feel right to me.  At GameStorm, where I played far too much Mario Kart, we had some pretty wonky setups with people playing from all over the portion of the room that the Wii was in. 

As far as items like the missile go, I agree that they're fun -- so are specials! -- I just think that they take a huge edge off of the competitive side of tournaments.

[dshwshr55]

Missiles and blue shells and lightning are only fun if you're in or around last place. If you can play really good and stay in the alpha spot, one of those items can instantly make a bad day, whether DD or Wii. This is more the case with the Wii, though.
The rubber band system is far too exaggerated to play fairly. Hence why, at the MKWii announcement, they said "...players new to the Mario Kart series will be able to compete against veteran players." For those who don't know, rubber band is giving advantages to the back of the pack and disadvantages to the leaders. Specifically, Lightning wears off sooner in last place, Bullet Bill travels farther when used in the back, more destuctive items are given more often while near-useless items are given to the top places. And of course, first place top speed is DECREASED while last place is INCREASED.

For those who really do love the series, you can compare it to something like Halo. Would it be unfair if some person came into the game, never having played it, and was breaking even with you every time? Or on WoW, if some lvl20 character dualed your lvl80 character and almost killed you.

Wii doesn't completely suck, though. After starting over on DD, I noticed how unresponsive the drifting actually was. It is strictly enforced (due to speed, angle) on the Wii, but way easier to use.

[DancingTofu]

Yeah.  I've found that to be especially true on the old Bowser's Castle level (the drifting bit).  In the standard karts, I get every drift every time perfectly.  I could never do that on the 64. (I don't think DD has that map, but if it does, I certainly don't remember COMPLETELY OWNING the tower's 270 degree drift every time on DD like I did on the Wii)

I usually won't take 1st on any course before lap 3 unless I know I can take the lead by at least 5 seconds.  i.e. Gold Mine, Rainbow Road, 64 Bowser's Castle, and other ridiculously drift-heavy tracks.  How do rubber band mechanics work with just 3 or 4 players (no ACPs)?  Does it become more balanced, or less?

It certainly does bother me that I can get beaten by an articially controlled player just because that ACP gets a lucky draw, although most unskilled players wind up going offroad, falling down holes, hitting obstacles, et cetera, and don't know the drifting mechanics.  In that sense, it's not really true that players new to the series can compete against those who have experience with it.  However, it means that an okay player can compete with an amazing player, which is silly.  Imagine if a Standard player and a Heavy player were playing a game of DDR, and the Standard player's timing windows got dramatically wider every time the Heavy player got a Marvellous.  It would be ridiculous!

[princessmoon]

  Ya'll are so thorough in analyzing ze gamez! I just play.... ^_^ Although, if I remember correctly, Dash had the 2-player team race... That was such a hilarious feature. I remember playing with my bro--he "raced" while I used items and whacked people who were in our kart "bubble."    Good times!

I did not expect to get 2nd place in MKwii tourney last year, but lo and behold...I surprised myself. LOL. More good times!

[DancingTofu]

Just got my Rainbow Road 64 remix up on Youtube.  It shouldn't be too hard to find.  search "rainbow road dancingtofu" and it should come up.  Gotta get the better version up though.  Anyway, I need to find some time to record a video of me running Rainbow Road on the 64 to set to the music.  Until then, generic picture.

[xxxchihiroxxx]

^i hate Rainbow road TT_TT *dies everytime*

[dshwshr55]

If anyone plays Mario Kart online, message me and I'll send my code.

[DancingTofu]

If/when I get a Wii, we'll have to play together frequently.  I don't suppose DD can be played over the internet too, can it?

[allstarsniper32]

If you use Mario Kart Wii and you don't want the ridiculous items to pop up just set it to strategic. All you get then are bananas, shells and mushrooms. If you are a good player then you should realize that you shouldn't try to stay in first place for the whole race as you are likely to get hit with a blue shell or something else that will make you lose. I should definitely take part in a mario kart tourney if you hold one just to see how I do. It's been a while since I played though.

[DancingTofu]

Good to hear that they did make a reasonable item distribution setting.  I will definitely use strategic if i do wind up running any mkwii tournaments.

[dshwshr55]

Good to hear that they did make a reasonable item distribution setting.  I will definitely use strategic if i do wind up running any mkwii tournaments.

Awesome! THEN it wil be a tournament ^^
I still wish someone would play online...

[xxxchihiroxxx]

dshwashr: I need to learn how to add wii friends or whatever x_x im hooked to the net but i have no clue how to use it. when I do i'll add you so we can play : D

[allstarsniper32]

Awesome! THEN it wil be a tournament ^^
I still wish someone would play online...

If I'm able to get a new sensor bar (my cat ate the one I had) I will definitely play this on-line with just about anyone. I also wouldn't mind playing Brawl but I think I'm better at Kart than Brawl so I'd rather play that lol. I don't remember the friends code thing being too hard once you learn it chihiro so hopefully someone can help you out with that since I completely forgot how to.

[dshwshr55]

It's easy! Start up the game, and your profile will have your friend number above all of the GOLDS you've won ^^ 
After you select your profile, go to WFC in the bottom left (I usually pick 1 player). If you have an ethernet cable hooked up to your machine, it'll automatically go online. Select "friends" when the option comes up, then select "register friend".

[allstarsniper32]

hey dshwshr55, do you know where I can get a new sensor bar? I never noticed if they sell them at Gamestop or Gamecrazy, just wondering if you would know, thanks.

[DarkKnightUltima]

hey dshwshr55, do you know where I can get a new sensor bar? I never noticed if they sell them at Gamestop or Gamecrazy, just wondering if you would know, thanks.

I do, I saw one yesterday at work. I work at GameCrazy over on 82nd in Johnson Creek.

[dshwshr55]

You can try online if you have online capabilities, which I'm assuming you do. Buying stuff online can be a lot cheaper and, in a lot of cases, more reliable than what they'll tell you at some game stores. There's more than ebay.

[allstarsniper32]

thanks Darkknight and dsh, I will check gaming stores and see which is cheaper. Even if they are like 5 bucks I couldn't afford one right now. Once I can get some cash together though I plan on getting one and I will be ready to kart on-line!

[Hawkeye]

I <3 Mariokart 64, Double Dash is my second favorite.  I'd opt for one of those if you're thinking tourneys.

[JeffT]

On the N64, I always preferred the much lesser-known Diddy Kong Racing, developed by Rare. It was a sophisticated, high-quality racing game in the style of Mario Kart, but the powerups were "reasonable", with boosts and projectiles, but no luck-based game-changers like lightning bolts. It had a large number of well-done, interesting levels, great music, and best of all, on most levels, you could select from car, hovercraft, or plane, which really made the game interesting.

I don't know if it had hidden rubber-band-style mechanisms to make matchups close, but matches did seem to be based on real skill and knowledge of the courses much more than luck as in Mario Kart. Upon Googling, many people mentioning the game believed it did not use rubber-band mechanisms, which matches my feel.

Also, unlike Mario Kart, the computers didn't drive on rails and didn't cheat!

[DancingTofu]

I was pretty fond of that game; didn't get to play it much.  In fact, I don't think I've played it since 1998 or 1999. D:

I enjoy Mario Kart more than most racing games because I can play it just for fun and do well, or I can play it seriously and do better.

[Hawkeye]

On the N64, I always preferred the much lesser-known Diddy Kong Racing, developed by Rare. It was a sophisticated, high-quality racing game in the style of Mario Kart, but the powerups were "reasonable", with boosts and projectiles, but no luck-based game-changers like lightning bolts. It had a large number of well-done, interesting levels, great music, and best of all, on most levels, you could select from car, hovercraft, or plane, which really made the game interesting.

I don't know if it had hidden rubber-band-style mechanisms to make matchups close, but matches did seem to be based on real skill and knowledge of the courses much more than luck as in Mario Kart. Upon Googling, many people mentioning the game believed it did not use rubber-band mechanisms, which matches my feel.

Also, unlike Mario Kart, the computers didn't drive on rails and didn't cheat!

Amen to that on Mario Kart.  Diddy kong racing was a cool game.

[princessmoon]

Mario Kart skit.... the song was cute

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5w3jySTlGI

sry off topic, just had 2 share!

[DancingTofu]

So I recently got a gamecube and a copy of DD, and now I have an intense desire to have some hardcore 2v2 at the con.  How many people would be interested in having a just-for-fun (and bragging rights) round robin or swiss tournament?

[dshwshr55]

Bragging rights? Yes ^^  My wife and I have been the DD champions for 3 years straight, before the Wii.

[DancingTofu]

Well, that was a bit of a given. ;P

btw, i will be looking for a partner for this.  Prefably someone in SE portland with whom I can practice regularly.

[xxxchihiroxxx]

xD you dont need to practice regulary xD

but Charles if you cant find anyone I could be your partner : ) I already know how to use the item throwing part of the contest (ie, i get to hit people and manage the items and turbos) cause untill i got my wii me and my best friend mastered it cause i couldnt drive. you drive i item throw.

[DancingTofu]

Practice is definitely mandatory.  I need to be able to give Wade a run for his money.  That will require utmost precision and coordination! :[

Also I want someone to play Mario Kart with.

[xxxchihiroxxx]

lol well i cant practice much cause uh i got some strict parents. so sorry then ) :

[DancingTofu]

Yeah, strict parents make sad gamers. :[

Anyway, I developed a really awesome ruleset for Double Dash, but I'm not sure it'll work because vs. mode doesn't record times.  We might be able to do it using a couple stopwatches though.  Otherwise, I'll have to figure out some other way to do it.  I don't want to use GP because Computer Players add way too much random interference.

[xxxchihiroxxx]

why dont you just hook up for controls to one box and have people go up against eachother like a normal tournament? you can turn com off i think.

[dshwshr55]

So what are these rules? Sounds like simple time trials to me.
Speaking of time trials, if you want to test your skills, try getting all seven laps of Baby Park under 10 seconds.

[JeffT]

Anyway, I developed a really awesome ruleset for Double Dash, but I'm not sure it'll work because vs. mode doesn't record times.  We might be able to do it using a couple stopwatches though.  Otherwise, I'll have to figure out some other way to do it.  I don't want to use GP because Computer Players add way too much random interference.

Computer capture device so you can measure to the frame? (Annoying, I know.) A second option is, record video on any point and shoot camera. The quality doesn't matter--just so long as you can make out the time and count by frames.

[Fudgie MD]

I'd be all to willing to bring MarioKart64.

[DancingTofu]

So what are these rules? Sounds like simple time trials to me.
Speaking of time trials, if you want to test your skills, try getting all seven laps of Baby Park under 10 seconds.

WAT

I've only ever gotten under 10 seconds once on that course on time trial.  Usually average 10.3 :/


Anyway, definitely not time trials.  Mario Kart Double Dash will be 2v2 swiss or round-robin, meaning vs. or Grand Prix are the only real options. 

Com can't be turned off during Grand Prix.

If I wind up running it, MKWii it will just be 1v1v1v1 swiss using cumulative points.


I think stopwatches are probably the most practical way to do it.  That or we could set up our own scoring system for the Double Dash 2v2.  Something like this:

Win race: 7 points
Hit w/ green shell, no bounce or 1 bounce: 2 points
Hit w/ banana forward: 2 points
Hit w/ mushroom: 1 point
Get hit by still obstacle: -1 point
Fall off of track: -3 points

Items would be set to Basic (Green Shells and Bananas in first; Green Shells, Red Shells, Bananas, and Mushrooms in second)


MK64 would be great to have around. :]  Too many holes and glitches for a tournament, but definitely fun to play.

[dshwshr55]

I've never actually played MK64 T_T

[DancingTofu]

I've never actually played MK64 T_T

WAT

Get that fixed ASAP :O


EDIT: just so people don't get the wrong idea, I do know how "what" is spelled.  I like to intentionally misspell it to emphasize its presence in a post.

[xxxchihiroxxx]

I've never actually played MK64 T_T

WAT

Get that fixed ASAP :O


EDIT: just so people don't get the wrong idea, I do know how "what" is spelled.  I like to intentionally misspell it to emphasize its presence in a post.

I havent either ._.

[Fudgie MD]

I've never actually played MK64 T_T

WAT

Get that fixed ASAP :O


EDIT: just so people don't get the wrong idea, I do know how "what" is spelled.  I like to intentionally misspell it to emphasize its presence in a post.

I havent either ._.

Well it seems we will really have to fix that then.

[allstarsniper32]

OK I got my sensor bar fixed and I'm ready to do some Wii kart. Uh let me pop in the game and I'll out my friends code thingy here.

3308-5015-6389

That's me, I've never used the friends code thing yet either so just let me know if anyone wants to play for awhile. I'll be able to play some kart on Friday for a while at about 9 or 9:30.

[DancingTofu]

I totally had an almost perfect score (104/110) going into the 12th race on Double Dash on All Cup, Mirror Mode today, then Zack started hitting me with crap.  I got 27 points over the last 5 races. :/

[dshwshr55]

Still not good enough! XD

[DancingTofu]

I went through and just did ACT Mirror by myself at 7am and got 146.  Could def. get perfect score if I had been awake.